Discovery 1x04 – "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not For The Lamb's Cry" [** SPOILERS **]

Sad Professor

Warning: This thread will contain spoilers for the episode "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not For The Lamb's Cry". Spoiler tags will not be used, so if you don't want to be spoiled read no further.

Sonics2k

Lorca ain't fúcking around.

FutureGuy

I need to watch this again.

I loved parts of it (the parts that matter to the core of what Trek is about) but there were some really dumb situations that I would not expect.

The good - the reveal about the tardigrade/ripper. That is what Trek is all about - seeking out new life and looking beyond what it looks like physically. It caught me out so kudos there. Also, I think we now have our reason why the spore drive will never function - it relies on the torture of a lifeform to function properly. Perfect - let that simmer. Having said that, I don't want Burnham to be feeding it for the season.

The bad (and I say that before I watch it again) - Tilly staying in the room with the tardigrade was so stupid and served only to allow her to praise Burnham later. The security chief acting so stupidly and getting killed - these are trained officers FFS and she is the head of security. Finally, and this is not sitting with me well, is that Klingon battle. Absolutely stupid. 40% of the dilithium there and the Klingons send 4-5 raiders to take it down? The place looks completely undefended which is ridiculous given it's importance. Then, instead of destroying the Klingons immediately, he pulls out a stupid maneuver, leaves the area and has no idea if he destroyed all remaining vessels. Unforgivably stupid.

I have no problem with a lot of what Discovery is about but I won't forgive a poorly written and thought-out battle. Again, I need to rewatch.

Oh. And Klingons eating Georgiu. What in the fcuk.

hal9550

Well! First Watch!

I enjoyed the episode and even paused and rewound a few times - So my initial opinion is:

Good episode. I again believe that we aree building toward the idea of Discovery being a Military RnD, or Section 31 proxy ship. Its clear that Saru, however loyal to Lorca, doesnt share his captains realist opinion on war. His denouncement of Burnham was pretty telling - He insults her by stating that she will fit in perfectly on 'this' ship.

The Klingon story line was pretty decent too. These guys may look different but to quote an old enterprise episode, 'Their Hearts are KLINGON'!! Its easy to imagine, aesthetics aside, that these Klingons are the ancestors of those that fought the Dominion, only this time they are looking at the Federation as the Ultimate threat to their Sovereignty. Kol is a very Duras like character, who wants the Empire to achieve supremacy in the quadrant, and his house, within the empire

I didnt really have any issue with the special effects of the episiode. My take on it looking different/More Advanced than the TOS constitution class is just an acceptance of what they have to do to make this show succeed.

Finally on USS Discovery itself, i have no issue with the strange design of this ship. I think it was literally designed to serve as a testing platform for the spores, and probably other scientific/Black-ops technologies. Stealth mode was mentioned, could this be a proto Federation Cloaking tech?

Il probably post again after a second/third run through but i enjoyed this episode. I am not an 'apologist' for new Trek. Its as new as it is different and if it is leading where i think it is; That this is all 'Off The Books' war time testing, i have no issue continuing to believe it is Prime Universe and will fit in nicely. And even as a Reboot, its FAR SUPERIOR to JJ-Trek. Black ops, espionage, S31, Torturing creatures for the good of the federation etc - all morally dubious.. But to Quote Cicero (And Admiral Ross and Bashirs argument on DS9), 'In Time of War, The Law falls Silent'

Happy to discuss!

Evade

Wright brothers, Zefram Cochrane, and Elon Musk. One of theses things is not like the others.

ezra_

I liked it.

Contradictingly, it felt both settled and rushed.

Settled, in that we've reached the main storyline (only took three episodes out of a 6 episode run to get there) but it feels like we are through the 'backstory' part.

Rushed, in that it feels like the producers are trying to cram an extra 20% of story into an episode, which causes it to be jumpy. However, given is a 6 part series, I guess that is always going to happen.

However, all in all, I liked it. At the end of the episode, I'm left wanting more and there is plenty in the episode that I want more of.

Except the telescope bit, that was needless and I'm really not getting into the Klingon faction thing. I'm sure the scenes are being set for a dramatic showdown (which will probably take place in the wreck of the Shenzou, over the Skull of Giorgou) but the Klingon speak is just jarring me

corkie

Disappointing and predictable episode!

Been criticized on line.


The reveal about the tardigrade/ripper was very leading and I guessed well in advance that it was going to be needed for the Spore Drive [a.k.a : - DM - Blink Drive].

FutureGuy

corkie wrote: »

Disappointing and predictable episode!

Been criticized on line.


The reveal about the tardigrade/ripper was very leading and I guessed well in advance that it was going to be needed for the Spore Drive [a.k.a : - DM - Blink Drive].

Jaysus I must be thick as sh!te.

_Kaiser_

Just watched there now..

At this point I know the tone to expect so it's not as jarring anymore, but I'm not really watching it as Star Trek now but rather an interesting enough modern sci-fi with familiar terms (basically I see it as a darker, grittier version of The Orville - good in their own rights but standalone derivatives of the same source material).

On the episode itself I'd agree with the above that the colony battle was stupid. A strategically vital outpost and they don't even stick around to see if they succeeded?? What if there were larger cruisers in orbit or in the system?
Killing off the security chief is exactly what I feared would happen too.. random deaths/write-outs of characters. We still know virtually nothing about most of the main cast, but again Burnham not being the sole source of attention helped.

The Voq/Kol story.. pretty obvious Kol wasn't gonna just capitulate that easily and I still don't see this lot as Klingons.. but much like the rest of the show it only works for me if I don't think about it too much.

Overall, like last week's it was decent enough for what it is.. but I still can't think of this as Star Trek.

Zillah

I like that we're seeing some interesting character elements with Michael and her insistence on learning about the creature rather than Lorca's "weaponise it" approach. The most Star Trek thing about the show so far.

The parallels between Discovery and the Equinox from Voyager are very strong. Selfish, unprincipled, militaristic ship culture, obsessed with a new drive technology which is only possible via the exploitation of innocent aliens. I'll wager we're going to see some Waterbears coming for revenge.

The battle was stupid. Just stupid. The CGI was a mess. It was totally cluttered garbage. Sit still until they're right on top of you and apparently leave so many explosive behind that it can take them out completely, but not destroy the colony they're right on top of? How were they supposed to know their plan even worked? Why did no one even mention before the mission that they are only one ship incapable of taking on a Klingon fleet? I get that you want your battle to be more creative than ships shooting each other until one dies, but I also hate when they go so far down the 'creative' road that the ship never ever fires a shot and it's just some dumb stunt (like Riker catapulting the Enterprise E's warp core in Insurrection).

Don't even get me started on the security officer's literal suicide.

Klingons were fine. I thought them eating the Captain was pretty great, actually. Helps them seem a little more alien rather than just angry shouty people.

Tristram

Really enjoyed that!

Spear

What's bugging me most is the telescope. Is the one Burnham received the same one seen on the Shenzhou? Did Starfleet go back and strip the wrecks?

Zillah

Spear wrote: »

What's bugging me most is the telescope. Is the one Burnham received the same one seen on the Shenzhou? Did Starfleet go back and strip the wrecks?

It would appear so:
https://i.imgur.com/q2d3RfD.jpg

Presumably the evacuating crew thought to grab it...

EDIT:
Also, it occurred to me how disappointing it is not to have Michelle Yeoh around for the rest of the show. Do you think they couldn't afford her?

corkie

FutureGuy wrote: »

Jaysus I must be thick as sh!te.

Maybe just that I have seen so much of Doctor Who, things like that don't surprise me.

Reminds me of "The Beast Below" episode.

Probably been other sci-fi examples of creatures used in the same manner! Can't remember them at the moment.

Fenster

Discovery takes place in the Dune universe: confirmed

• Spaceship possesses a drive which folds space and permits instant travel in anywhere in the known universe.
• Rare, valuable substance (mushroom spores) underpins the foldspace drive.
• Navigator placed in a chamber full of spores to perform their task.
• Living Navigator plugged into drive system controls it.
• Navigator is a mutant (tardigrade).

Michael Burnham is Paul Muad'Dib. Discuss.

AMKC

Fenster wrote: »

Discovery takes place in the Dune universe: confirmed

• Spaceship possesses a drive which folds space and permits instant travel in anywhere in the known universe.
• Rare, valuable substance (mushroom spores) underpins the foldspace drive.
• Navigator placed in a chamber full of spores to perform their task.
• Living Navigator plugged into drive system controls it.
• Navigator is a mutant (tardigrade).

This sounds more like Farscape certainly not Star Trek.

As a poster said above its a good cci-fi show just not a Star Trek show.

They should drop the Star Trek bit and just call it Discovery or better yet Battlestar Discovery I am sure they would be delighted to have a new show to add alongside Battlestar Galactica.

Spear

One small thing I noted. Stammet's mate on the Glenn clearly kept a lot of fundamental info back from him. Perhaps not that close or idealistic a relationship between them.

Slydice

Thought that episode was good. Oh the federation tech and story is keeping my attention but the Klingons! Whew! Things about to get ferocious there!

DMcL1971

ezra_ wrote: »

I liked it.

Contradictingly, it felt both settled and rushed.

Settled, in that we've reached the main storyline (only took three episodes out of a 6 episode run to get there) but it feels like we are through the 'backstory' part.
However, given is a 6 part series, I guess that is always going to happen.

I believe it is 9 episodes in the first part and 6 in the second part.

Goodshape

Wow! That was great!

Lorca's a bad bastard.

That spore drive warp effect is beyond daft, hate it for that, but eh, looked lovely ;-D – particularly in the heat of battle. Daft though.

Klingons were interesting in this. Haven't really gotten used to the makeup yet though, so I get that uneasy uncanny valley feeling and can't convince my brain that this waxy rubber facemask is an alien species I should take seriously.

Saru is the same. Love the character! But watching him is to wish he'd just take the mask off. I hope that doesn't become any more of a theme with this shows alien make-up, and/or I can just get used to it.


Otherwise, really enjoyed it a lot! After not really "getting" the tone of it last week, this one I settled into in no time. Seemed to pack a lot into 40 minutes too (damn those US network TV runtimes!); Good character stuff, science, action, beautiful SFX, emotions where needed. Loved the score too.

Top marks after first viewing anyway!

I think it's pretty damned Trek - don't know what anyone else is saying. The Spore Drive... man, what an effect that was. The only reason you never really saw stuff like that in previous franchises is that none could really come close to the visual technology we have nowadays. To think - we're seeing visual effects this grand on a TV show budget!

Sarn

Enjoyable. I'm still not sure about Burnham, not very likeable yet.

Goodshape wrote: »

Seemed to pack a lot into 40 minutes too (damn those US network TV runtimes.

That's because it was just over 48 mins!

Goodshape

Sarn wrote: »

That's because it was just over 48 mins!

Oh, so it was! I must have mistook remaining time for the length of the show.

corkie

I just hope the show doesn't become formulaic!

With pulling out the spore drive, twice an episode. Once to jump in and resolve a problem and again to disappear once resolved!

That worked in the 70's/80's with shows like The Incredible Hulk. Not really a formula for modern TV!

AtomicHorror

FutureGuy wrote: »

Finally, and this is not sitting with me well, is that Klingon battle. Absolutely stupid. 40% of the dilithium there and the Klingons send 4-5 raiders to take it down? The place looks completely undefended which is ridiculous given it's importance.

The admiral mentions that the defensive blockade was ambushed and destroyed. We don't know where in Federation space Corvan II is, but likely this was a deep strike by the Klingons- far beyond the front line (this is implied by the fact that the nearest Federation starship is 80+ hours away). Any ships lost in the ambush not replaceable. No backup.

As a gamble, it worked out just fine for them. The 4-5 ships remaining would have been plenty, except they didn't bank on the arrival of an impossible starship. Who does?

FutureGuy wrote: »

Oh. And Klingons eating Georgiu. What in the fcuk.

To be fair, they were starving, but it seems like they partly did it out of disrespect too.

Pelvis

Well that bored the arse off me.

Optimus Prime

Really enjoyed this weeks one again. Still hoping that the “everything” the Klingon has to give up turns out to be some of his full on alien Klingon look and they make the look more like the ones from the past shows.

But regardless it’s really won me over now. Michaels main drive is a starfleet officer, despite some of the people around her. Loved that she looked past the cover of the book and found the truth inside it, regarding the alien creature.

My vote is still the captain is section 31. What was that guard with the black insignia guarding in the previous ep? Or was it just the spores/captains weapon room

spookwoman

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Really enjoyed this weeks one again. Still hoping that the “everything” the Klingon has to give up turns out to be some of his full on alien Klingon look and they make the look more like the ones from the past shows.

But regardless it’s really won me over now. Michaels main drive is a starfleet officer, despite some of the people around her. Loved that she looked past the cover of the book and found the truth inside it, regarding the alien creature.

My vote is still the captain is section 31. What was that guard with the black insignia guarding in the previous ep? Or was it just the spores/captains weapon room

Its only 100 years since the augmentation virus nearly wiped out the klingons and those that survived were making it as captains and pretty much accepted. Makes you wonder what the Matriarchy are up to and what they mean by remain klingon.
I don't think the guarded door is the spore room, didnt see guards when they were accessing it and the weapons room again cant see that having guards. It was said at the start that it could handle 300 discrete scientific missions, I'd say it's probably weapons, possibly Khan even.

Josey Wales

Is the woman at the helm of the ship with the tech around her eye from the pilot? Was she on the original ship but injured now?

Optimus Prime

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Really enjoyed this weeks one again. Still hoping that the “everything” the Klingon has to give up turns out to be some of his full on alien Klingon look and they make the look more like the ones from the past shows.

I really hope they don't do that, personally. It would feel like they're giving over to fan service and pressure.

Blazer

Evade wrote: »

Wright brothers, Zefram Cochrane, and Elon Musk. One of theses things is not like the others.

I’m thinking about the Falcon platform which Musk has revolutionized, well hopefully so tempted to get them a pass on it. At this stage the writing is pretty poor. Maybe they should just hire the Orville writers and remove the jokes.

Johnny Storm

Goodshape wrote: »

That spore drive warp effect is beyond daft,

+ 1

I will be referring to it as the Magic Mushroom Drive from now on

Also why would Captain Kill-or-be-killed want a cautious scaredy-cat like Saru on his crew at all, much less as his number 1?

Optimus Prime

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Really enjoyed this weeks one again. Still hoping that the “everything” the Klingon has to give up turns out to be some of his full on alien Klingon look and they make the look more like the ones from the past shows.

Imagine if he takes the Augment Virus intentionally to make himself stronger than Kor!

Saying that I actually love the new Klingons (barring some over soft masks bending on the armour), they are now real big bads, eating their defeated enemies and relishing it, oh and back to that armour doubling as an environmental suit... lovely

With regards to Elon Musk - we're looking at him in the present. Musk is one of the main people pushing for going to Space again and also for going to Mars. Maybe the advancements that Musk is able to push gets us to Mars in the Star Trek universe now.

server down

Blazer wrote: »

I’m thinking about the Falcon platform which Musk has revolutionized, well hopefully so tempted to get them a pass on it. At this stage the writing is pretty poor. Maybe they should just hire the Orville writers and remove the jokes.

The idea is that musk will get people to Mars. In which case the future will remember him.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

With regards to Elon Musk - we're looking at him in the present. Musk is one of the main people pushing for going to Space again and also for going to Mars. Maybe the advancements that Musk is able to push gets us to Mars in the Star Trek universe now.

I liked it but we have seen Earth in 2020's in "Past Tense"(?) on DS9?
They have established the 1990's to WW3 as a bad place to be, should leave it at that.

TBH it's going to be very awkward not to mention contemporary situations in Trek though. It's why we had the likes of Past Tense and the excellent episode where Sisko dreams that he's a writer - it mirrored that present situation. There's always going to be issues with that - because the world always changes.

DMcL1971

Johnny Storm wrote: »

I will be referring to it as the Magic Mushroom Drive from now on

It reminds me of the Infinite Improbability Drive from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. It allows you to pass through every point in the galaxy simultaneously. They even said this week that the spore drive was probabilistic.

Or the Blink Drive from Dark Matter that allowed you to instantaneously jump your ship to a point and then jump out again, in the blink of an eye.

DMcL1971

Josey Wales wrote: »

Is the woman at the helm of the ship with the tech around her eye from the pilot? Was she on the original ship but injured now?

Yes, same character. Presumably she got injured in the Klingon battle.

degrassinoel

DMcL1971 wrote: »

It reminds me of the Infinite Improbability Drive from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. It allows you to pass through every point in the galaxy simultaneously. They even said this week that the spore drive was probabilistic.

Or the Blink Drive from Dark Matter that allowed you to instantaneously jump your ship to a point and then jump out again, in the blink of an eye.

or..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygE01sOhzz0

think i'm done giving this show a chance, even voyager was better than this

Like we haven't seen propulsion tech researched and abandoned in TOS era
Cough... Transwarp... Cough

Goodshape

degrassinoel wrote: »

think i'm done giving this show a chance

You're done doing what now? I must have missed that part.

:pac:

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Like we haven't seen propulsion tech researched and abandoned in TOS era
Cough... Transwarp... Cough

Aaannd not forgetting the mega-warp drive which was powered on the bodies of subspace aliens in Voyager.

hal9550

There is a precedent for a magic drive WITHIN THE STAR TREK CANON

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYE3nm9voUk

Cochrane couldnt lift off without Steppenwolfs MAGIC CARPET!!!

meep

This is the first episode that made me question if I really wanted to keep watching thjis.

There are no likeable characters and, worse, no sympathetic characters. It's full of annoying, poorly written people making bad decisions.

The Klingon sequences really anny me. Not becasue of how they look but how tey sound;

In the first instance, they all speak as if their mouth if full of brillo pads or something. There's a distinct tone to their spech that grates and just comes across as poor sound design.

Plus, spekaing in Klingon with subtitles really detracts from the visuals. The series really looks great and the first Klingon scene in this episode had some amazing visuals going on in the background. Could I enjoy them? No, I had to read those stupid subtitles.

Not enjoying it, unfortunately.

Greyjoy

This ep was a mixed bag for me. The core plot of rescuing the mining colony had potential and there was some nice character development for the Discovery crew.

But the tension of the main story was undercut by the distraction of the Klingon 'B' story. If the writers had somehow tied it into the colony attack then it could have worked but it felt like filler. Not wishing to sound like a broken record but the new Klingon designs are making their dialogue a laborious chore to sit through. It stretched credibility that after igniting a war T'kuvma's followers would be left abandoned in the debris field for six months. The other houses would have surely returned for no other reason than to fight over the cloaking tech in T'kuvma's warship.

I liked more focus on Stamet's and the re-iteration that a military mission is not what he joined Starfleet for. But the security chief's death was utterly pointless both from a story point of view and from the character herself. We knew how dangerous the ripper was from the previous ep so killing landry doesn't advance the plot in any way. Landry herself acted like an idiot, if she had not been part of the boarding party on the Glenn then might have excused her underestimating the creature. But she fled from it aboard the Glenn yet somehow thinks some tranquilizer gas and a phaser rifle will be enough to kill it? Maybe if we as an audience had gotten to know Landry for more than 1 episode her death might have carried some impact - are they setting up a vacancy for Burnham to fill?

degrassinoel

Goodshape wrote: »

You're done doing what now? I must have missed that part.

:pac:

explain.

Goodshape

degrassinoel wrote: »

explain.

I was suggesting (half jokingly) that you've never given this show a chance.

seamus

Evade wrote: »

Wright brothers, Zefram Cochrane, and Elon Musk. One of theses things is not like the others.

There were a couple of little nods to modern memes/geekdom that I wasn't crazy about. Musk being one of them; setting aside the timeline/canon issues, will Musk even be remembered alongside Cochrane in the 23rd century? They should have left it out.
The tardigrade thing was another little nod to modern memes, and seemed like an unnecessary parallel, unless their intention is to lead us towards it being a deliberate tardigrade/spore hybrid rather than a space-faring being that tracks the spores.

I hope they're going to delve more into that. It seemed all too convenient that you plug this thing into the technology and it "just works".

Greyjoy wrote: »

I liked more focus on Stamet's and the re-iteration that a military mission is not what he joined Starfleet for. But the security chief's death was utterly pointless both from a story point of view and from the character herself.

These two threads are not exclusive. As we can see from Stamet and Saru's attitude to the Captain, there's a military -v- science tension on the vessel, which presumably is only going to build as Lorca becomes more and more arrogant.

Landry is military and it's a common theme in Star Trek for jarheads to be rash, impulsive, aggressive and arrogant. So while yeah, you'd be thinking, "How stupid are you?!", there is past form in Star Trek for that level of stupidity by military personnel.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

There were a couple of little nods to modern memes/geekdom that I wasn't crazy about. Musk being one of them; setting aside the timeline/canon issues, will Musk even be remembered alongside Cochrane in the 23rd century? They should have left it out.

I don't know. To me, it would be odd for them to not. Whatever about the timeline/cannon issues, Musk has been more or less spearheading the exploration of space with SpaceX and he is, right now, among the only people pushing for Mars.

If he succeeds, then he'll go down in history as the man that got us to Mars.

Greyjoy

seamus wrote: »

Landry is military and it's a common theme in Star Trek for jarheads to be rash, impulsive, aggressive and arrogant. So while yeah, you'd be thinking, "How stupid are you?!", there is past form in Star Trek for that level of stupidity by military personnel.

Landry wasn't some rookie officer where those traits might be more common she was the security chief.If you're going to have a character act in a stupid/rash manner you need to first establish that they're foolish/inexperienced otherwise it's bad writing.