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Harvey Weinstein scandal (Mod warning in op.)

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    #1712
    Hammer89
    Registered Users Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    anna080 wrote: »
    Who knows what would have happened if the kid never managed to escape.

    Is there anything to suggest that Spacey would've raped him, or tried to rape him, had he refused? I don't think so. It's important to stick to the facts and the facts - according to Anthony Rapp - are that Spacey tried it on with a conscious 14-year-old, failed, asked him to reconsider and then left it at that.


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    #1713
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    Is there anything to suggest that Spacey would've raped him, or tried to rape him, had he refused? I don't think so. It's important to stick to the facts and the facts - according to Anthony Rapp - are that Spacey tried it on with a conscious 14-year-old, failed, asked him to reconsider and then left it at that.

    Attempting to have sex with a person who is fourteen is by definition attempted rape. He was under the age of consent.


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    #1714
    Hammer89
    Registered Users Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    Attempting to have sex with a person who is fourteen is by definition attempted rape. He was under the age of consent.

    Anna was intimating that a forced sexual act could have happened had he not "escaped", which isn't a good word to use.


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    #1715
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,054 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    Is there anything to suggest that Spacey would've raped him, or tried to rape him, had he refused? I don't think so. It's important to stick to the facts and the facts - according to Anthony Rapp - are that Spacey tried it on with a conscious 14-year-old, failed, asked him to reconsider and then left it at that.

    I thought you read the allegations. You dont seem to have.
    My memory was that I thought, Oh, everybody's gone. Well, yeah, I should probably go home,” Rapp said. Spacey, he recalled, “sort of stood in the doorway, kind of swaying. My impression when he came in the room was that he was drunk.” Rapp doesn't remember Spacey saying anything to him. Instead, Rapp said, “He picked me up like a groom picks up the bride over the threshold. But I don't, like, squirm away initially, because I'm like, 'What's going on?' And then he lays down on top of me.”

    “He was trying to seduce me,” Rapp said. “I don't know if I would have used that language. But I was aware that he was trying to get with me sexually.”

    Rapp recalled this all happening — Spacey appearing at the door, coming into the room, picking him up, and putting him on the bed — in one clumsy action, with Spacey landing at a slight angle on top of him. He said Spacey “was, like, pressing into me,” and that he remembers Spacey “tightening his arms.” But while he can't recall exactly how long Spacey remained on top of him, Rapp said he was able to “squirm” away after a short period.]

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1716
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,054 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    Anna was intimating that a forced sexual act could have happened had he not "escaped", which isn't a good word to use.

    With a 14 year old? SInce when can a 14 year old give consent?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1717
    Hamlet.
    Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭Hamlet.


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I thought you read the allegations. You dont seem to have.

    As I've said before, no crime was committed. It's plain and simple.


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    #1718
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    Anna was intimating that a forced sexual act could have happened had he not "escaped", which isn't a good word to use.

    Eh what? I said "who knows what would have happened". I don't know? Do you know? Forced or not it's still wrong and it still constitutes rape. The fact you don't even seem to know this is the worrying part.


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    #1719
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    Hamlet. wrote: »
    As I've said before, no crime was committed. It's plain and simple.

    Attempting to rape a fourteen year old is a crime. How do you keep missing this fact?


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    #1720
    Hammer89
    Registered Users Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    anna080 wrote: »
    Eh what? I said "who knows what would have happened". I don't know? Do you know? Forced or not it's still wrong and it still constitutes rape. The fact you don't even seem to know this is the worrying part.

    Why even say it if you don't know what would have happened? Because you and Joey are exaggerating the incident from what I can tell. Let's not pretend you weren't suggesting that Kevin Spacey could've raped him, in the sense of a forced sexual act, had he not "escaped".


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    #1721
    Hammer89
    Registered Users Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I thought you read the allegations. You dont seem to have.

    I did, and you seem to have cherry picked your quotes, conveniently omitting the part where Rapp alleges that Spacey said, 'Are you sure you wanna go?'


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    #1722
    edalton471
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭edalton471


    @Hamlet

    I think you need to Google what the statute of limitations is. That's the reason why he didnt go to the police, it was too late to press charges. It's also the reason that Spacey is brazen enough to come out in public and say "Jeez, maybe it did happen." He knows damn well there's nothing that can be done about it.

    It's also the reason Feldman won't name his abusers, he said as much in an interview before. Naming names opens him up to defamation lawsuits whereas the actual criminals can't be prosecuted as it's too late.

    Just because Rapp didn;t go to the police doesn't make what Spacey allegedly did any less perverted


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    #1723
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    I did, and you seem to have cherry picked your quotes, conveniently omitting the part where Rapp alleges that Spacey said, 'Are you sure you wanna go?'

    Not really appropriate to be asking that question of a 14 year old though, is it?

    Even if physical force isn't used, it would be rape since he can't legally consent. Spacey would know this, and apparently Rapp looked his age, no older.


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    #1724
    Hamlet.
    Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭Hamlet.


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    Attempting to rape a fourteen year old is a crime. How do you keep missing this fact?

    There's no attempt. If there was an attempt he would have strolled out the door unscathed would be?


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    #1725
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    Why even say it if you don't know what would have happened? Because you and Joey are exaggerating the incident from what I can tell. Let's not pretend you weren't suggesting that Kevin Spacey could've raped him, in the sense of a forced sexual act, had he not "escaped".

    So in your world putting 14 year olds to bed and lying on top of them is all fine and dandy. Riiiiiiight...


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    #1726
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    With a 14 year old? SInce when can a 14 year old give consent?

    There are many countries in which a 14-year-old can legally consent to sex.

    Some of them have age and positions of authority exemptions but far from all.

    Not too long ago it was even as low as 13 in Spain.


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    #1727
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    There are many countries in which a 14-year-old can legally consent to sex.

    Some of them have age and positions of authority exemptions but far from all.

    In the US it's illegal, and that's all that is relevant here.


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    #1728
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    Hamlet. wrote: »
    There's no attempt. If there was an attempt he would have strolled out the door unscathed would be?

    A fourteen year old cannot consent to sex so propositioning one is an attempted rape. Statute of limits has expired but very much so a crime. The events also clearly scarred him somewhat which you seem happy to gloss over.


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    #1729
    Hamlet.
    Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭Hamlet.


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    A fourteen year old cannot consent to sex so propositioning one is an attempted rape. Statute of limits has expired but very much so a crime.


    Even from the 14 year olds statement he fails to mention any concrete proposition. So why do people keep assuming there was one?


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    #1730
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    anna080 wrote: »
    In the US it's illegal, and that's all that is relevant here.

    He asked: "Since when can a 14 year old give consent?" suggesting it was unheard of, just pointing out that's not the case.

    Also, there are many states in the US where the age of consent is 14 (with close-in-age exemptions).

    Doubt it would affect this case though given that Spacey was in his mid 20's at the time and exemptions tend to only run to between 4-8 years.


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    #1731
    Hammer89
    Registered Users Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    anna080 wrote: »
    So in your world putting 14 year olds to bed and lying on top of them is all fine and dandy. Riiiiiiight...

    This is the same type of exaggeration you've used with Kevin Spacey.

    Kevin Spacey is clearly an absolute scumbag but if you want to make him into more of a monster than he already is then you must use more than the question 'Who knows what would've happened?' as your evidence.


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    #1732
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    This is the same type of exaggeration you've used with Kevin Spacey.

    Kevin Spacey is clearly an absolute scumbag but if you want to make him into more of a monster than he already is then you must use more than the question 'Who knows what would've happened?' as your evidence.

    I am using more than that. I'm using the fact that Rapp has said Spacey came into his room when he was watching tv and tried to "seduce him and get with him sexually"- he then picked him up like a groom would a bride and "placed him on the bed and pressed himself into me sexually"...
    Rapp also said he was staunchly discouraged by his lawyers go forward with this.
    What are you using as your basis that it didn't happen?


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    #1733
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    anna080 wrote: »
    I am using more than that. I'm using the fact that Rapp has said Spacey came into his room when he was watching tv and tried to "seduce him and get with him sexually"- he then picked him up like a groom would a bride and "placed him on the bed and pressed himself into me sexually"...
    Rapp also said he was staunchly discouraged by his lawyers to take this forward.
    What are you using as your basis that it didn't happen?

    Spacey went into his own bedroom, not the boys


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    #1734
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Spacey went into his own bedroom, not the boys

    Yes you're right what was I thinking. That's the issue worth being pedantic about!
    :rolleyes:


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    #1735
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Spacey went into his own bedroom, not the boys

    I don't think the location is the issue?


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    #1736
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    I don't think the location is the issue?

    I think it's very relevant. Spacey didn't go to the room of a child looking for sex, he went into his own room at a party and found a young guy in there and made an assumption. There is no indication he knew the guy was underage. At a party, an adult situation, drunk, it could be a mistake. He tried it on and stopped when asked. I really don't see the issue here, it's not like he was hanging around a school looking for kids to shag.


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    #1737
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I think it's very relevant. Spacey didn't go to the room of a child looking for sex, he went into his own room at a party and found a young guy in there and made an assumption. There is no indication he knew the guy was underage. At a party, an adult situation, drunk, it could be a mistake. He tried it on and stopped when asked. I really don't see the issue here, it's not like he was hanging around a school looking for kids to shag.

    He was in a play with the child, he must have known his age. Took him out with friends a couple of nights before the party, which he invited him to. Rapp arrived at the party to find out to his surprise that he was the only kid there.

    It wasn't an innocent little woopsie doopsie I'm on top of a teenager, oh well, my mistake.


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    #1738
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Sabrina Future Burger wrote: »
    He was in a play with the child, he must have known his age. Took him out with friends a couple of nights before the party, which he invited him to. Rapp arrived at the party to find out to his surprise that he was the only kid there.

    It wasn't an innocent little woopsie doopsie I'm on top of a teenager, oh well, my mistake.

    They were not in the same play at that time, they were working on two different productions. I haven't seen the bit that they had been out together prior to this. That puts a different slant on it.


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    #1739
    Hammer89
    Registered Users Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    anna080 wrote: »
    What are you using as your basis that it didn't happen?

    When did I say it didn't happen? What I'm saying is you need a lot more to go on when you suggest something more sinister would've occurred had not Rapp not "escaped". Your use of that word speaks volumes I think, because to me it suggests that your vision of the incident is a lot more threatening than Rapp claims it was. He didn't throw a chair through the window and rappel down the building using a rope made of Kevin Spacey's ties. He made a conscious choice to leave the room and he was allowed to do so.


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    #1740
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    When did I say it didn't happen? What I'm saying is you need a lot more to go on when you suggest something more sinister would've occurred had not Rapp not "escaped". Your use of that word speaks volumes I think, because to me it suggests that your vision of the incident is a lot more threatening than Rapp claims it was. He didn't throw a chair through the window and rappel down the building using a rope made of Kevin Spacey's ties. He made a conscious choice to leave the room and he was allowed to do so.

    I think it's clear we'll never be on the same page so I'm kind of done here.


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    #1741
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    Be interesting to know when, exactly, the party took place as Rapp turned 15 in '86.

    Trivia: Rapp was the geek infatuated with Elizabeth Shue in the film 'Adventures in Babysitting' which was filmed in '86 (came out in '87).


    Adventures-in-Babysitting-Anthony-Rapp.jpg


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCh_XoFObz4


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