N2 - Clontibret to NI Border [preferred route published; ABP in 2022]

marno21

https://n2monaghanlouth.ie/c2b-publications

Initial design for the route published

Kermit.de.frog

Looks shoddy and cheap. Why the at-grade roundabouts?

This should be the main route between Dublin and Derry (the most forgotten city on the island) and should be motorway. This is more of the usual, cheap, second rate, short termist disease the country suffers from.

There is actually a random at-grade roundabout on the mainline near the southern end and immediately following that just to the south on the same mainline an overbridge. Why? How does that make any sense?

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123467627#Comment_123467627

There is definite discrimination against the north-west. The N2 at Clontibret has only an AADT only 10% less than the M9, and slightly higher proportion of HGVs. This route serves 4 counties, has no parallel railway, yet it is thought quite acceptable to have a second rate specification for the route.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123467627#Comment_123467627

TII and the local authority like to work on numbers and reality. The AADT on the northern end is around 7k. It's not exactly the M50 or Interstate 405. It's an appropriate solution to the problem at hand.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123467680#Comment_123467680

We need to demand better. This not a future proofed scheme, it just isn't. Do it properly or don't do it at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123467677#Comment_123467677

It's clear just by looking at a map. They won't even do the M4 to Longford properly. That's getting the shoddy, cheap, second rate treatment as well and that's the key route to the northwest and Donegal, another forgotten county.

We want these regions to develop but we give them crap infrastructure.

MJohnston

I won't reach the ranting level of others, but I do somewhat agree it's a bit frustrating to see new high quality roads projects constructed with roundabouts.

I assume that perhaps the northern end terminates in a roundabout to allow for future connection with any future A5 upgrade, but I don't really understand the roundabout at the R214 intersection — it seems like such a thing could be avoided by routing via alternate roads, even if a full grade-separated junction isn't appropriate.

Arguing that this should be a motorway seems like a pointless distinction though. If that R214 roundabout wasn't there, this would be a great bit of infrastructure.

KrisW1001

80 metre roundabouts aren't substandard junctions. Where a significant amount of traffic joins or leaves, they're superior to compact grade-separated junctions. Roundabout and Compact GSJ are the only options on a 2+2 unless traffic volumes using the junction are extremely high.

This road currently carries 7000 AADT in parts. That's well within the limit for a single carriageway (<13500). The road that is being built has over three times the current capacity (22,000 AADT). It's idiotic to say it's not a future proof solution. I'd rather not have the roads budget squandered just to satisfy some weird fetish for blue signs.

This route has been upgraded massively to 2+2 because it's the main road to Derry. If it wasn't, it would be a single carriageway.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123468155#Comment_123468155

one thing to be aware of is induced demand and the opposite effect. The traffic between NW and Dublin is much lower currently because if the state of the roads.

Especially once the A5 phase 3 is done (ballygawley to Omagh), traffic volumes will increase hugely. Right now a not insignificant amount of traffic from NW to Dublin goes via A6 to Belfast then south on the M1. This will all move to A5/N2 in time.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123468155#Comment_123468155

There should not be at grade interruption on any interurban route on this island. This is not 1980's Ireland, this is basic stuff across the continent.

You're being an apologist for mediocrity and penny pinching.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123468264#Comment_123468264

The other side of that is that the N2 is currently used for many local journeys (school run, popping to the shop, visiting granny, etc.). The infrequency of junctions on the new road will mean most of those journeys will not transfer. 2+2 seems entirely appreciate here, motorway can't be justified.

MJohnston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123468155#Comment_123468155

I would say that roundabouts and compact GSJs are not the only two options in this specific case — there's also the option to not have a junction at this spot at all, which I think could be preferable here.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123468264#Comment_123468264

This is the key point, you have a bad road and people do not use it so you claim that it does not need improving.

Traffic to the North-West has also had political interference. The border might still be there when this road opens, but does anyone seriously believe that it still will be there when it has to be resurfaced?

This is not about a fetish for blue signs, it is about having equity in travel time to Dublin from different quadrants of the country.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123468755#Comment_123468755

There's no situation where this road would justify a Type 1 Dual Carriageway. None.

Type 1 DC is for traffic volumes over 35000 AADT.

NIRS is building their section of this route as their equivalent of a type 2 DC, and that's with major towns like Omagh along the route..(and yes, they have considered this becoming the main Dublin Derry route... that's most of the reason it's a dual carriageway all the way)

Volumes in the Republic do not justify a 2+2, and won't even after A5, but it's being built as this for continuity, and because it is a national primary route from Dublin to Derry (and Letterkenny).

Just because we've one motorway that shouldn't have been (M9 south of Carlow) , it doesn't mean we need to make more of them. That road was built as a Type1 DC because there was no other standard available at the time.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123469282#Comment_123469282

This does not address the issue of equity, many aspects of public policy have to consider equity and not just cost minimisation.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123469303#Comment_123469303

Unfortunately that poster represents the type of small mindedness that has inflicted the state really since independence. A complete failure to think long term, bigger and strategically and do things right. Instead it's all penny pinching, parochial scale, holding the country back.

It's a mentality I can't wrap my head around. It's unfortunate.

So many other countries have no problem thinking strategically 30 or 40 years ahead but we are inflicted with a portion of the population with that mentality.

I agree with you it's the northern half of the country that are the biggest losers from it. The country overall loses too.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123469303#Comment_123469303

The money that would be wasted on overspeccing this route as a Type 1 DC could be much better spent on upgrading other roads in the region such as the N13/N15 or the brutal secondary roads in the area.

Type 2 DC is more than enough here.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123469459#Comment_123469459

Upgrading secondary roads will not improve travel time to the North-West.

There is a case that places where the government has closed the railways should get some additional consideration, as quite an amount goes to Irish Rail.

MJohnston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123469492#Comment_123469492

The difference between a Type 1 and Type 2 isn't going to make any difference to travel time either though

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123469497#Comment_123469497

A 120kmh road gets you there in less time than a 100kmh road, especially one where you have to stop at roundabouts.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123469497#Comment_123469497

It will because apparently going on the Slane Bypass if repeated all along the N2 there will be at grade roundabouts all along the route and an inconsistent standard.

There should be motorway from Dublin to Derry. Problems solved. That's what serious countries do.

MJohnston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123469500#Comment_123469500

Then you want a motorway, not a Type 1 DC, given how rare 120kmh DCs are?

As I said, I agree on the roundabouts

MJohnston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123469503#Comment_123469503

There's space for other options in between your two examples, and your ranting on this topic is doing it no favours tbh

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123469507#Comment_123469507

They aren't going for options in between, are they? We are getting a substandard interurban route, a mish mash of standards, and it does annoy me that some are being apologists for that.

Why can't we just do things properly?

I wouldn't mind an in between on the whole N2 but we aren't getting that.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123469506#Comment_123469506

As this road is on a new alignment, bar the southernmost km, there is no reason why it could not be a motorway.

And of course the other main route leading to the border is 120kmh DC .

spacetweek

”Equity” is not considered by engineers. If we want motorway here when one isn’t needed just for the sake of political optics, then the Taoiseach would have to get involved.

MJohnston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123469545#Comment_123469545

Well it's leading not to the border, but to another capital city.

Anyway I don't disagree that the North-west route needs significant improvement, but largely agree with others that motorway standard is not necessary — let's just get rid of those on-line roundabouts.

mackerski

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123469503#Comment_123469503

If you're going via Slane from Dublin to Derry, somebody needs to show you the N33.