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The Greatest Teams Ever Debate (Dublin - The Greatest Team Ever?)
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Powerhouse wrote: »I mentioned Minor only to demonstrate the weakness of the population arguments not to claim any link between it and Senior. Population advantage should really matter at Minor level when constant turnover of players is necessary but Dublin record at Minor All-Ireland level is mediocre.
Competing sports exist but the idea that they are as well-resourced, as professionally organised or as attractive as an alternative to youths doesn't hold up. In Dublin soccer and rugby clubs you have never heard of are playing players match fees, and have schoolboys set-ups which are huge.
What is the problem with the Football Championship as a "worthwhile competition"? Dublin beat Kerry by three points in 2015, and by two in 2016 and by one in 2011. And in the one win over Kerry which looks comprehensive on the face of it, Dublin were behind going into injury-time. They lost to Mayo in 2012, beat them by a point in 2012, '16 and '17, and needed two replays along the way. What's not worthwhile about that competition?
Yes, they have hammered teams along the way too but look at some other results - Connacht Final 2015: Mayo 6-25 Sligo 2-11; 2013: Mayo 5-11 London 0-10. Munster Final 2017: Kerry 1-23 Cork 0-15; 2016: Kerry 3-17 Tipperary 2-10; 2014: Kerry 0-24 Cork 0-12.
Quarter-finals 2017: Mayo 4-19 Rosommon 0-9; Tyrone 3-17 Armagh 0-8. Quarter-final 2016: Kerry 2-16 Clare 0-11. What would splitting Dublin do to combat that uncompetitiveness? Or is it okay when it's not Dublin involved?
Funny how when Kerry or Mayo have runaways wins people are concerned that they are "untested" ahead of future games but when Dublin have the same the county must be split and the championship is in crisis!
People only talk of splitting Dublin due to the resources available to the county in terms of playing numbers, paid GDA's and financial backing. Some of the clubs there have more numbers and finances than the likes of Leitrim. (personally, and I've said it before, but I think the super clubs will be the ones to suffer in Dublin longterm. It is hard enough to keep everyone interested, but when you have so many going for one team, and at times those teams have a number of imports on them too, then I dont think that will work. But thats an internal Dublin issue)
Personally, I dont really believe in splitting Dublin. It is a county like the rest. But I dont know how the substantial difference to resources can be balanced out. In any other sport, it would be rare for such a disparity to be prevalent (take the number of football teams in capitals, AFL teams in Melbourne, etc).
To be honest, the only solution I think would be viable would be to destroy the county set up and form amalgamated super teams. And that in itself I dont think is an adequate solution either.
Yes, it will turn about for Dublin again and there will be a time when they arent as dominant, but the way things are set up for them now, there is absolutely no reason for them not to be dominating.
And on another note, the argument of "we werent winning in the 90's/00's" does not wash with me at all. There was none of the paid coaching and financial benefits around then, and considering how the sport has developed in the last 20 years in terms of S&C gains, getting the coaching and infrastructure now as opposed to back then is a significant boost.
Granted, throwing money at things does not mean it works, it has to be used correctly, and Dublin certainly have done so.0 -
People only talk of splitting Dublin due to the resources available to the county in terms of playing numbers, paid GDA's and financial backing. Some of the clubs there have more numbers and finances than the likes of Leitrim. (personally, and I've said it before, but I think the super clubs will be the ones to suffer in Dublin longterm. It is hard enough to keep everyone interested, but when you have so many going for one team, and at times those teams have a number of imports on them too, then I dont think that will work. But thats an internal Dublin issue)
Another way of saying it is that talk of splitting Dublin is also due to the success of Dublin. Cork would have far more resources and far greater population than, say, Carlow but nobody suggests splitting Cork to level the playing field.
While I accept that Dublin is disproportionately big in all senses (outside GAA as well) the current discussion is a function of their success. People were quite happy to see Dublin being demolished by Kerry in 2009 and Colm O'Rourke showed little enough concern for "providing greater opportunities for young Dublin players to play in Croke Park" by splitting the county back then.
Neither does anyone seem bothered by the fact that Kerry has two and a half times the population of Monaghan (and 37 All-Irelands more than them) or that Donegal has four times the population of Longford. The town of Dundalk has the same population as Leitrim. How come there isn't a 'superclub' there winning all around it? The County title is a rare visitor to the town.0 -
Powerhouse wrote: »Another way of saying it is that talk of splitting Dublin is also due to the success of Dublin. Cork would have far more resources and far greater population than, say, Carlow but nobody suggests splitting Cork to level the playing field.
While I accept that Dublin is disproportionately big in all senses (outside GAA as well) the current discussion is a function of their success. People were quite happy to see Dublin being demolished by Kerry in 2009 and Colm O'Rourke showed little enough concern for "providing greater opportunities for young Dublin players to play in Croke Park" by splitting the county back then.
Neither does anyone seem bothered by the fact that Kerry has two and a half times the population of Monaghan (and 37 All-Irelands more than them) or that Donegal has four times the population of Longford. The town of Dundalk has the same population as Leitrim. How come there isn't a 'superclub' there winning all around it? The County title is a rare visitor to the town.
yeah they are fair points. but I also think my last comment has a lot to do with the likes of Dundalk - Dublin have the resources but are using them extremely well.
However I dont think we have seen such a resource disparity in the game before. And I mean moreso in terms of full time coaches to individual clubs and the county as a whole, the infrastructure (not all to do with Dublin GAA but available at ease due to Dublin being the capital) and obviously the finances. Again, to reiterate, money doesnt win championships. You need to have your set up right or else its a waste. Dublin are using it well and fair play to them for that.
I'm just not sure if it keeps going the way it is that the parity will return other than a county here and there taking a scalp once in a while.0 -
JB81 wrote:So do you not count the games were Dublin beat Meath... 'Undefeated in over 3 decades' .... lol , good play on words...JB81 wrote:I think it would be at least fair to say how many games were played between the two teams!
I didn't mean any play on words whatsoever. I just meant with 11 wins and 5 draws that is 16 undefeated games for Meath v Dublin. I'm sure Dublin have just a good record v Meath even not probaly better with the domination of the province in the last 13 years by Dublin. Meaths record v Dublin since 2010 5 goal hammering by Meath is poor to say the least.
I'm trying to just say that Dublin and Meath is a rivalry. But it must be said. The rivalry is not in great shape at the moment. Dublin are to dominant. But in the heyday of the 80s and 90s it was a rivalry that caught the imagination of the country. Not anymore. It's to one sided.0 -
Powerhouse wrote:Funny how when Kerry or Mayo have runaways wins people are concerned that they are "untested" ahead of future games but when Dublin have the same the county must be split and the championship is in crisis!
What happens when the population of Dublin hits over 2 million in the middle of this decade. How can can you expect a county like longford be expected to be in the same provience as Dublin. A Dublin A team and B team. Might be a better option. But I don't know what is the better option. But you can see Dublin getting stronger on top of what they have already done. And other counties are just playing catch up as the gap widens. Is on the cards.
With so many strong football counties in their worst state in decades. The word crisis is approximate for the times. But when you have President of the GAA saying the GAA is thriving on the Sunday Game. They just don't care or just don't want to see the problems facing gaelic football. If Ireland win rugby world cup. It will be 5 or 6 years of Rugby mania gripping the country. As Dublin win 19 of 20 leinsters and are on the road to their second 4 in a row in a decade. It all could happen.0 -
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What happens when the population of Dublin hits over 2 million in the middle of this decade. How can can you expect a county like longford be expected to be in the same provience as Dublin. A Dublin A team and B team. Might be a better option. But I don't know what is the better option. But you can see Dublin getting stronger on top of what they have already done. And other counties are just playing catch up as the gap widens. Is on the cards.
With so many strong football counties in their worst state in decades. The word crisis is approximate for the times. But when you have President of the GAA saying the GAA is thriving on the Sunday Game. They just don't care or just don't want to see the problems facing gaelic football. If Ireland win rugby world cup. It will be 5 or 6 years of Rugby mania gripping the country. As Dublin win 19 of 20 leinsters and are on the road to their second 4 in a row in a decade. It all could happen.
It could happen but as things stand Dublin may be having a period of dominance at national level that will pass as such periods of dominance have always passed before. Time will tell on that.
As for Dublin's Leinster dominance, it has to be said that Leinster has rarely been as poor regarding Division 1 teams in the League as it has been in the past decade. In the 1996-2000, Kildare reached an All-Ireland final and won two Leinsters, Meath won two All-Irelands, and Offaly won a Leinster and a League title. Take Dublin out of the equation tomorrow morning and none of those counties (okay so Kildare seem to be improving) would be expected to feature in the All-Ireland final. They have to improve independently of Dublin. As Kerry and Mayo have shown several times in recent years when a team is well-prepared and going well they can be hugely competitive with Dublin.0 -
Powerhouse wrote:Neither does anyone seem bothered by the fact that Kerry has two and a half times the population of Monaghan (and 37 All-Irelands more than them) or that Donegal has four times the population of Longford. The town of Dundalk has the same population as Leitrim. How come there isn't a 'superclub' there winning all around it? The County title is a rare visitor to the town.
But how much is kerry 37 All Irelands , periods of sucess in the 30s 40s 50s 70s 80s and 00s down to finance and how much is Dublin 2010s sucess down to finance. Is the GAA not an amateur organisation.
Kerry when they were winning All Irelands in 30s 40s 50s 70s and 80s couldn't be awash with cash. It would be seem to me more down to good planning good structure great tradition players and managers. I know Kerry co do now pump money into kerry now. But they didn't in the 30s 40s or 50s 70s or 80s.
Dublin win 1 All Ireland for every decade since 1940s. Then vast finance investment into Dublin from the GAA and sponsorship starting 10 years ago. And Dublin jump from 1 to 5 All Ireland and counting in a decade. Yes great structure great volunteer work. Great players and great managers all in Dublin.
But Kerrys sucess and Dublins sucesss one seems to be fueled by more money. Kerry were winning All Irelands by the bucket load when the country was an economic basket case. And no one had a penny.
Dublin are not PSG they are PSG Man City and Real Madrid rolled into 1. Brolly gives out about Cooper and his testimonial dinner. Yet no mention in the amount money Dublin is awash with. It's the great white elephant in the room that very few in the mainstream medis are willing to tackle. For an amateur organisation professional is always an issue. A professional team now in an amateur organisation has basically being ignored by the media.0 -
But how much is kerry 37 All Irelands , periods of sucess in the 30s 40s 50s 70s 80s and 00s down to finance and how much is Dublin 2010s sucess down to finance. Is the GAA not an amateur organisation.
Kerry when they were winning All Irelands in 30s 40s 50s 70s and 80s couldn't be awash with cash. It would be seem to me more down to good planning good structure great tradition players and managers. I know Kerry co do now pump money into kerry now. But they didn't in the 30s 40s or 50s 70s or 80s.
Dublin win 1 All Ireland for every decade since 1940s. Then vast finance investment into Dublin from the GAA and sponsorship starting 10 years ago. And Dublin jump from 1 to 5 All Ireland and counting in a decade. Yes great structure great volunteer work. Great players and great managers all in Dublin.
But Kerrys sucess and Dublins sucesss one seems to be fueled by more money. Kerry were winning All Irelands by the bucket load when the country was an economic basket case. And no one had a penny.
Dublin are not PSG they are PSG Man City and Real Madrid rolled into 1. Brolly gives out about Cooper and his testimonial dinner. Yet no mention in the amount money Dublin is awash with. It's the great white elephant in the room that very few in the mainstream medis are willing to tackle. For an amateur organisation professional is always an issue. A professional team now in an amateur organisation has basically being ignored by the media.
Surely Dublin have underachieved over the decades? Surely they should be close to being on a par with Kerry most of the time? They should surely be immune to the slumps that have afflicted other counties?
I'm not sure how to answer the 'professionalism' thing. The team is capable of attracting sponsorship but are Dublin's players being paid? I am unaware of that.0 -
Powerhouse wrote:As for Dublin's Leinster dominance, it has to be said that Leinster has rarely been as poor regarding Division 1 teams in the League as it has been in the past decade. In the 1996-2000, Kildare reached an All-Ireland final and won two Leinsters, Meath won two All-Irelands, and Offaly won a Leinster and a League title. Take Dublin out of the equation tomorrow morning and none of those counties (okay so Kildare seem to be improving) would be expected to feature in the All-Ireland final. They have to improve independently of Dublin. As Kerry and Mayo have shown several times in recent years when a team is well-prepared and going well they can be hugely competitive with Dublin.
But Mayo have overachieved. It's like the county has this obsession to win Sam. To close the gap. It's an admirable obsession. And this drive and unrelenting hunger for Sam from Mayo is a sight to behold. The players and supporters wouldn't give up. It's to their credit.
But when you compare to Galway they could be overachieving. Since Galway were last in a final Mayo have played in 6 finals. Since then Mayo have beaten Dublin twice and 2 draws . Mayo have bewten Kerry once and 1 draw. Galway havent beaten Dublin since 1920s or kerry since 60s.
Mayo have beaten Tyrone Cork and Donegal all in recent years on the march to 6 finals. While Galway havent won a match in Croker in 16 years.
Meath haven't being in divsion 1 since 2001. ( 2007 they were in divsion 1 b 16 team). Kildare have never won div 1 title .
The last time Dublin had to face top divsion 1 team in their provience was over 15 years ago.
Meath could be the new Cavan. While Kildare our leinster best hope after some underage sucess. But their delight and patting themselves on the back with a 9 point hammering last year v the dubs does not augur well. The Armagh loss could be were Kildare are really at. And seen what Tyrone did to Armagh it's not good.
But Kildare need to say in div 1. If they can , maybe they will build a team to compete with Dublin. Here's hoping for the sake of leinster football.0 -
Powerhouse wrote:Surely Dublin have underachieved over the decades? Surely they should be close to being on a par with Kerry most of the time? They should surely be immune to the slumps that have afflicted other counties?Powerhouse wrote:I'm not sure how to answer the 'professionalism' thing. The team is capable of attracting sponsorship but are Dublin's players being paid? I am unaware of that.
Not being paid. But they r professional in so many ways . I don't know. The whole thing is very disheartening. And something needs to be looked at. There are problems. And if the GAA don't accept they're problems. How will these problems be addressed.0 -
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But Mayo have overachieved. It's like the county has this obsession to win Sam. To close the gap. It's an admirable obsession. And this drive and unrelenting hunger for Sam from Mayo is a sight to behold. The players and supporters wouldn't give up. It's to their credit.
But when you compare to Galway they could be overachieving. Since Galway were last in a final Mayo have played in 6 finals. Since then Mayo have beaten Dublin twice and 2 draws . Mayo have bewten Kerry once and 1 draw. Galway havent beaten Dublin since 1920s or kerry since 60s.
Mayo have beaten Tyrone Cork and Donegal all in recent years on the march to 6 finals. While Galway havent won a match in Croker in 16 years.
Meath haven't being in divsion 1 since 2001. ( 2007 they were in divsion 1 b 16 team). Kildare have never won div 1 title .
The last time Dublin had to face top divsion 1 team in their provience was over 15 years ago.
Meath could be the new Cavan. While Kildare our leinster best hope after some underage sucess. But their delight and patting themselves on the back with a 9 point hammering last year v the dubs does not augur well. The Armagh loss could be were Kildare are really at. And seen what Tyrone did to Armagh it's not good.
But Kildare need to say in div 1. If they can , maybe they will build a team to compete with Dublin. Here's hoping for the sake of leinster football.
"But Mayo have overachieved" - have they really? Based on what? They are a similar county to Kerry in many aspects yet have not won an All-Ireland in 66 years. Why should never winning an All-Ireland be the natural expectation for them such that when they reach a few finals they are considered to have overachieved?
"The last time Dublin had to face top division 1 team in their province was over 15 years ago." - why do people not consider this reality a bit more when complaining about Dublin's dominance in the province? The rest of the province has regressed hugely. That problem cannot be solved within Dublin's boundaries.0 -
Sonny, you are good on the stats, but one of reasons for the dominance of traditional counties is historical.
Dublin, Kerry, Cork, Tipp, Kilkenny and a few others are only counties where there has been continuity of GAA since 1884. It was late 40s before there was full representation of 32 counties in SFC. Derry had a team in early years but only re-entered in 1947.
Reason for that was the political onslaught on GAA after the downfall of Parnell. Catholic Church was fiercely against GAA and if not mistaken excommunicated people in Ulster for even going to games, never mind playing.
GAA in counties above was dominated by IRB and stood up to the intimidation. Also no coincidence that they were main counties, with exception of Kilkenny, in war for independence.
We don't call our county ground Parnell Park for no reason.0 -
6 All Irelands finals in 13 years. Outside kerry and Dublin is a very sucessful period. Remeber Mayo did not win 1 connacht in whole 70s. And Mayo did not reach an All Ireland final from 1951 to 1989. Nearly 40 years.
6 finals might not seem much today. But in the history of the game in Mayo and for any county would be a hugely sucessful . History making sucess.
Leinster, there always being a gap. But Dublin were once winning 1 Sam a decade now they are winning 5. Once teams werw competed. Now they are getting record hammering. Counties like Meath have stagnated. But Dublin have gone up a few levels. Alot of forward thinking and hard work by players and management and volunteers.
But truthfully Dublin could have 2 inter county teams with inter county playwrs. Meath never even when they winning All Irelands did they more then 16 or 17 inter county players. There's a conveyor belt of intercounty players lining up for Dublin . A Dublin third team would do well in leinster. 15 years ago a Dublin first team was losing to Westmeath. Dublin have gone up a good few levels. When Dublins population hitting 2 million mark in the mid part of century.
How many quality inter county players will Dublin have then ? .
5 or 6 teams worth of inter county players and most counties might not even have 7, 8 , 9 or 10 players on their team of inter county standard.0 -
I know Meath was a division 4 county before 1940.
And all my stats are from after 1940. I don't use many before. It was not til as you say Bonnie man that the championship did not really take off nationally til 1940s.
That's why I dont consider Wexford team 14 to 18 an All time great team or Dublin 20s. Only 4 in a row team kerry from 29 to 32 deserves consideration.0 -
6 All Irelands finals in 13 years. Outside kerry and Dublin is a very sucessful period. Remeber Mayo did not win 1 connacht in whole 70s. And Mayo did not reach an All Ireland final from 1951 to 1989. Nearly 40 years.
6 finals might not seem much today. But in the history of the game in Mayo and for any county would be a hugely sucessful . History making sucess.
But the question is if Mayo are overachieving? Historically they did dip hugely after the 1950/51 team winning just three Connacht titles in the following 30 years. That said, they have won 15 of the last 30 Connacht titles so their recent altitude is not new, though maybe their competitiveness in the All-Ireland series is. If they are considered to be overachieving then it must mean we are assuming that the doldrums they experienced almost without respite 1955-85 is the norm. I don't see why that should be the case.
The levels Meath reached post-1939 when essentially they replaced Kildare as Leinster's second county are the levels that have informed their ambitions ever since. Likewise, it seems unlikely Tyrone will expect to return to their pre-1980s state when they were only very occasional Ulster champions. Why should Mayo's ambitions be limited to the point where they regard an All-Ireland final defeat as overachievement?0 -
I know Meath was a division 4 county before 1940.
And all my stats are from after 1940. I don't use many before. It was not til as you say Bonnie man that the championship did not really take off nationally til 1940s.
That's why I dont consider Wexford team 14 to 18 an All time great team or Dublin 20s. Only 4 in a row team kerry from 29 to 32 deserves consideration.
As you say up to 40s it was limited championship. Dublin, Kerry, Tipp and Cork won All Irelands in years when there were only 6/7 county teams, and they were club teams. Dubs team in 20s was good team and that was start of mass involvement and big crowds, and the rivalry with Kerry which had political connotations.
I know Paul Rouse has done some good stuff on it, but a lot the history still to be told. GAA actually came close to being destroyed after the Parnell crisis. They had Church and Brits and Ancient Order of Hibernians all trying to put us down.
You will also know Sonny from your own place that much of Dubs/Meath rivalry in football was not so much based on county loyalty but on proximity of clubs along our northern frontier!
I played out in Wild Geese in Oldtown a few times and apparently the far goal is in Meath!0 -
Galway have won 6 All-Irelands since 1951. How on earth is this under achieving compared to Mayo?
All I can put Dublin's current dominance down to is they finally got their act together in the early 2000s. Before that, they vastly underachieved when you consider their population.
Also, Dublin were lucky to have Kevin Heffernan as their manager, one of the best in the history of the game. Take him out of the equation and its possible they would also have underachieved in the 70s and 80s with nothing to show for it.
Current Dublin dominance accurately reflects their over-whelming resources. Once Dublin started to take gaelic football seriously, they were always going to blow away everyone else, no matter how hard the other counties tried. Its not as if the like of Tyrone, Kerry or Mayo aren't trying their utmost. They just cannot compete with the assembly line of young players Dublin can call on.
I agree with other posters the county model of Sam Maguire is now obsolete and ultimately a failure. There are too big of disparities in terms of resources between the counties. Most games are nothing games with next to nothing except pride at stake.0 -
Again Galway last All.Ireland final appearance in 2001 since Mayo have been in 6 finals. Galway havent won a match in Croke Park in 16 years
Mayo beating Dublin twice Kerry Tyrone Donegal Cork and many more in Croke Park in the same period.0 -
Shurimgreat wrote: »Galway have won 6 All-Irelands since 1951. How on earth is this under achieving compared to Mayo?
All I can put Dublin's current dominance down to is they finally got their act together in the early 2000s. Before that, they vastly underachieved when you consider their population.
Also, Dublin were lucky to have Kevin Heffernan as their manager, one of the best in the history of the game. Take him out of the equation and its possible they would also have underachieved in the 70s and 80s with nothing to show for it.
Current Dublin dominance accurately reflects their over-whelming resources. Once Dublin started to take gaelic football seriously, they were always going to blow away everyone else, no matter how hard the other counties tried. Its not as if the like of Tyrone, Kerry or Mayo aren't trying their utmost. They just cannot compete with the assembly line of young players Dublin can call on.
I agree with other posters the county model of Sam Maguire is now obsolete and ultimately a failure. There are too big of disparities in terms of resources between the counties. Most games are nothing games with next to nothing except pride at stake.
Two observations on this - 1) this assumes that Dublin's success is not just part of a cycle which will wane in the future as the current players age. As we saw with Kilkenny hurlers it is amazing what the loss of a few key players can do. Suddenly other players who looked great in a stronger team can look ordinary. Also, while Dublin can be argued to have underachieved in several decades is their current state really likely to be an average level of performance into the future? Is there really enough evidence to write off the entire competition when it wasn't written off by people during the previous decade when Kerry won five All-Irelands?
and 2) Why is the county model a failure because of disparities in resources? Look at a competition like the Champions' League - Real Madrid have won three of the last four competitions. The winner will come from about four clubs the names of which would generally be agreed by most people in advance. The idea that the county model as such is a failure is superficially attractive but when you look at other models the same thing happens. There is no competition where every team has an equal chance of winning and that is usually a question of resources anyway.0 -
Powerhouse wrote:But the question is if Mayo are overachieving? Historically they did dip hugely after the 1950/51 team winning just three Connacht titles in the following 30 years. That said, they have won 15 of the last 30 Connacht titles so their recent altitude is not new, though maybe their competitiveness in the All-Ireland series is. If they are considered to be overachieving then it must mean we are assuming that the doldrums they experienced almost without respite 1955-85 is the norm. I don't see why that should be the case.Powerhouse wrote:The levels Meath reached post-1939 when essentially they replaced Kildare as Leinster's second county are the levels that have informed their ambitions ever since. Likewise, it seems unlikely Tyrone will expect to return to their pre-1980s state when they were only very occasional Ulster champions. Why should Mayo's ambitions be limited to the point where they regard an All-Ireland final defeat as overachievement?
Mayo have overachieved with 6 finals compared to other counties .
Laois and Monaghan have not reached a final since 1930s
Kildare have played in 1 final in 90 years
Roscomon have played in 2 finals in 60 years eg 1980 and 1962
Donegal have reached 3 finals in its history
Cavan haven't reached a final in 70 years
When you compare Mayo's record of 6 finals in 15 years. It is an outstanding record.0 -
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Shurimgreat wrote:Galway have won 6 All-Irelands since 1951. How on earth is this under achieving compared to Mayo?
Galway havent beaten Dublin since 1920s.
Mayo have beaten Dublin in 2006 and 2013 and 2 draws in 2016 and 2017
Galway havent beaten Kerry since 1965
Mayo defeated kerry in 1996 and 2017 and two draws in 2014 and 2017.
Galway havent won a champiomship match in Croke Park in 16 years 2001 to 2017 .
Mayo reaching 6 finals in the same period.
Galway didn't win a championship match in Croke Park between 1984 and 1997.
Mayo reached 3 finals in the same period.0 -
Powerhouse wrote: »Two observations on this - 1) this assumes that Dublin's success is not just part of a cycle which will wane in the future as the current players age. As we saw with Kilkenny hurlers it is amazing what the loss of a few key players can do. Suddenly other players who looked great in a stronger team can look ordinary. Also, while Dublin can be argued to have underachieved in several decades is their current state really likely to be an average level of performance into the future? Is there really enough evidence to write off the entire competition when it wasn't written off by people during the previous decade when Kerry won five All-Irelands?
and 2) Why is the county model a failure because of disparities in resources? Look at a competition like the Champions' League - Real Madrid have won three of the last four competitions. The winner will come from about four clubs the names of which would generally be agreed by most people in advance. The idea that the county model as such is a failure is superficially attractive but when you look at other models the same thing happens. There is no competition where every team has an equal chance of winning and that is usually a question of resources anyway.
As I said, Dublin have finally got their act together. 50 full time coaches, significant funding from the GAA for games development, huge sponsorship deals. The population of Dublin rapidly increases, while it is stagnant or declines elsewhere. For each rural person that moves to Dublin and sets up their home there, its a win for Dublin and a loss for the rural locality. This trend is one way, towards Dublin.
Dublin got their act together eventually and it looks like curtains for everyone else.
The difference between Dublin getting their act together and Westmeath, Carlow or Longford getting their act together is still light years.
Only one county can break the traditional cycle of golden teams and generations, etc and that's Dublin. Dublin have the resources to produce a golden generation every generation.
Its pretty amazing that Dublin are struggling in the hurling though. If they ever decide to get their act together there, they could easily dominate for decades. I suppose the lack of tradition and strong clubs is holding them back.0 -
Mayo have overachieved with 6 finals compared to other counties .
Laois and Monaghan have not reached a final since 1930s
Kildare have played in 1 final in 90 years
Roscomon have played in 2 finals in 60 years eg 1980 and 1962
Donegal have reached 3 finals in its history
Cavan haven't reached a final in 70 years
When you compare Mayo's record of 6 finals in 15 years. It is an outstanding record.
Why compare Mayo to Laois, to take just one example? Laois have one Leinster title since 1946. Mayo have 24 Connacht titles in the same time-frame. That's the context for Mayo - look at the number of opportunities that have had by being in the last four/eight compared with Laois. Yes, many counties can be found which have not been in an All-Ireland final in decades if ever, but is that a realistic context for judging a county with 46 provincial titles (only Kerry and Dublin have won more meaning only those counties have been in the All-Ireland last four more often and been on the brink of such opportunity with such frequency) and 11 National Leagues? None of those counties you mention compare with Mayo for historical achievement and ongoing potential (Cavan does but their tradition, unfortunately, is no longer a successful one).0 -
Beating or not beating Dublin or Kerry is not a barometer for success or lack thereof.
Mayo are not successful just because they beat Dublin and Kerry a couple of times. Means nothing if they don't take home the title. They have a good team without doubt, but successful? I don't think so. Maybe a little unlucky recently. They haven't even threatened a league title.
Galway have won 2 All Ireland in the recent past. Just because they didn't beat Kerry or Dublin to win them does mean they don't count.
Mayo have a better team than Galway in the last 10+ years. But they are not delivering on their promise.
Galway had a better team than Mayo for the period before that, and delivered with 2 All-Irelands, success! They hammered the Meath team that hammered the Kerry team in one of them ( i think this was mentioned in a post or two above
).
Prior to that Mayo had a better team than Galway ( as did Roscommon ) around the late 80's mid 90's, but again no silverware, no success!0 -
We don't call our county ground Parnell Park for no reason.
Even that concession to a Meathman* and Sonny isn't happy.As you say up to 40s it was limited championship. Dublin, Kerry, Tipp and Cork won All Irelands in years when there were only 6/7 county teams, and they were club teams. Dubs team in 20s was good team and that was start of mass involvement and big crowds, and the rivalry with Kerry which had political connotations.
I know Paul Rouse has done some good stuff on it, but a lot the history still to be told. GAA actually came close to being destroyed after the Parnell crisis. They had Church and Brits and Ancient Order of Hibernians all trying to put us down.
You will also know Sonny from your own place that much of Dubs/Meath rivalry in football was not so much based on county loyalty but on proximity of clubs along our northern frontier!
I played out in Wild Geese in Oldtown a few times and apparently the far goal is in Meath!
It's nearly 4km from the western goal to the Ashbourne border from the The Orchard grounds.
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Powerhouse wrote:Why compare Mayo to Laois, to take just one example? Laois have one Leinster title since 1946. Mayo have 24 Connacht titles in the same time-frame. That's the context for Mayo - look at the number of opportunities that have had by being in the last four/eight compared with Laois. Yes, many counties can be found which have not been in an All-Ireland final in decades if ever, but is that a realistic context for judging a county with 46 provincial titles (only Kerry and Dublin have won more meaning only those counties have been in the All-Ireland last four more often and been on the brink of such opportunity with such frequency) and 11 National Leagues? None of those counties you mention compare with Mayo for historical achievement and ongoing potential (Cavan does but their tradition, unfortunately, is no longer a successful one).
What about Down. Down have only played in 1 final in 24 years. And 3 finals in 50 years.
Galway recent record v Mayo's recent record. Galway havent won in Croker in 16 years. In the same period Mayo have reached 6 finals
Meath haven't reached a final in 16 years. Mayo have played in 6.
Offaly haven't reached a final in 35 years.
Armagh have reached 4 finals in their history 1953 1977 2002 and 2003. ( might be forgetting one other ?)
Cavan 5 titles in 30s 40s 50s . No final for over 70 years.
Are Meath Down Galway Cavan Offaly Armagh not all similar counties to Mayo.
Meath are 4th most sucessful county Galway are 3rd most sucessful county
Down are 6th most sucessful county
Especially Down Galway Meath Cavan. all more sucessful then Mayo.
Offaly have won 3 All Ireland since Mayo's last win0 -
Powerhouse wrote: »Two observations on this - 1) this assumes that Dublin's success is not just part of a cycle which will wane in the future as the current players age. As we saw with Kilkenny hurlers it is amazing what the loss of a few key players can do. Suddenly other players who looked great in a stronger team can look ordinary. Also, while Dublin can be argued to have underachieved in several decades is their current state really likely to be an average level of performance into the future? Is there really enough evidence to write off the entire competition when it wasn't written off by people during the previous decade when Kerry won five All-Irelands?
and 2) Why is the county model a failure because of disparities in resources? Look at a competition like the Champions' League - Real Madrid have won three of the last four competitions. The winner will come from about four clubs the names of which would generally be agreed by most people in advance. The idea that the county model as such is a failure is superficially attractive but when you look at other models the same thing happens. There is no competition where every team has an equal chance of winning and that is usually a question of resources anyway.
just to add to your final point, the NFL has parity. Each team can only spend the same amount on player wages, and the draft ensures that the worst team gets the best available player. Its why you can see some teams turn their organisation around from being last to first within a few years.
Also, AFL has a similar set up. Salary cap impacts and a draft. This years Grand final has 44 players participating who have never played in a final before. Last year the Bulldogs won their first in 60 years. They then didnt make the playoffs this year.
It would be ideal to have a similar set up of both the above, but it could never happen.0 -
JB81 wrote:Beating or not beating Dublin or Kerry is not a barometer for success or lack thereof. Mayo are not successful just because they beat Dublin and Kerry a couple of times. Means nothing if they don't take home the title. They have a good team without doubt, but successful? I don't think so. Maybe a little unlucky recently. They haven't even threatened a league title.JB81 wrote:Galway have won 2 All Ireland in the recent past. Just because they didn't beat Kerry or Dublin to win them does mean they don't count.JB81 wrote:Mayo have a better team than Galway in the last 10+ years. But they are not delivering on their promise. Galway had a better team than Mayo for the period before that, and delivered with 2 All-Irelands, success! They hammered the Meath team that hammered the Kerry team in one of them ( i think this was mentioned in a post or two above ). Prior to that Mayo had a better team than Galway ( as did Roscommon ) around the late 80's mid 90's, but again no silverware, no success!
But Galways record in Croker no win
Between 2001 and 2017 16 years
Between 1984 and 1997 13 years.
Is very poor.
If you take away those 4 great year 98 to 01. Galway have been a divsion 2 and sometimes a divsion 3 since 1983 . From 83 to 97. And 01 to 17.
Galway won 4 finals between 56 and 66. And won 7 finals between 20s and 60s. This is the golden years of Galway football. But 2 wins in 50 years. Puts behind the above Galway
1 Kerry 2 Dublin 3 Meath 4 Cork 5 Down / Offaly / Tyrone
Galway in the years 30s to 60s was the years of greatness of Galway football . In the last 50 years has been more patchy.
1920s to 1960s 7 All Ireland titles
71 to 83 lost 4 finals lost 71 73 74 83
84 to 97 No wins in championship in Croker Croker
98 to 01 Galway r back. 3 finals and 2 wins .
01 to 17 No wins in championship in Croker.
Since 66 Galway with exception of 71 to 83 and 98 to 01. Galway have never reached height of the great Galway years 30s 40s 50s 60s0 -
BonnieSituation wrote: »Even that concession to a Meathman* and Sonny isn't happy.
It's nearly 4km from the western goal to the Ashbourne border from the The Orchard grounds.
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Bit closer than that? There black and white things with spots. And that wasn't the WAGS
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BonnieSituation wrote:It's nearly 4km from the western goal to the Ashbourne border from the The Orchard grounds.
I'm very happy that played you football in Meath. It's something you can be proud of til your dying day. Something to tell the grandchildren.0
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