Powerhouse wrote: » I mentioned Minor only to demonstrate the weakness of the population arguments not to claim any link between it and Senior. Population advantage should really matter at Minor level when constant turnover of players is necessary but Dublin record at Minor All-Ireland level is mediocre. Competing sports exist but the idea that they are as well-resourced, as professionally organised or as attractive as an alternative to youths doesn't hold up. In Dublin soccer and rugby clubs you have never heard of are playing players match fees, and have schoolboys set-ups which are huge. What is the problem with the Football Championship as a "worthwhile competition"? Dublin beat Kerry by three points in 2015, and by two in 2016 and by one in 2011. And in the one win over Kerry which looks comprehensive on the face of it, Dublin were behind going into injury-time. They lost to Mayo in 2012, beat them by a point in 2012, '16 and '17, and needed two replays along the way. What's not worthwhile about that competition? Yes, they have hammered teams along the way too but look at some other results - Connacht Final 2015: Mayo 6-25 Sligo 2-11; 2013: Mayo 5-11 London 0-10. Munster Final 2017: Kerry 1-23 Cork 0-15; 2016: Kerry 3-17 Tipperary 2-10; 2014: Kerry 0-24 Cork 0-12. Quarter-finals 2017: Mayo 4-19 Rosommon 0-9; Tyrone 3-17 Armagh 0-8. Quarter-final 2016: Kerry 2-16 Clare 0-11. What would splitting Dublin do to combat that uncompetitiveness? Or is it okay when it's not Dublin involved? Funny how when Kerry or Mayo have runaways wins people are concerned that they are "untested" ahead of future games but when Dublin have the same the county must be split and the championship is in crisis!
bruschi wrote: » People only talk of splitting Dublin due to the resources available to the county in terms of playing numbers, paid GDA's and financial backing. Some of the clubs there have more numbers and finances than the likes of Leitrim. (personally, and I've said it before, but I think the super clubs will be the ones to suffer in Dublin longterm. It is hard enough to keep everyone interested, but when you have so many going for one team, and at times those teams have a number of imports on them too, then I dont think that will work. But thats an internal Dublin issue)
Powerhouse wrote: » Another way of saying it is that talk of splitting Dublin is also due to the success of Dublin. Cork would have far more resources and far greater population than, say, Carlow but nobody suggests splitting Cork to level the playing field. While I accept that Dublin is disproportionately big in all senses (outside GAA as well) the current discussion is a function of their success. People were quite happy to see Dublin being demolished by Kerry in 2009 and Colm O'Rourke showed little enough concern for "providing greater opportunities for young Dublin players to play in Croke Park" by splitting the county back then. Neither does anyone seem bothered by the fact that Kerry has two and a half times the population of Monaghan (and 37 All-Irelands more than them) or that Donegal has four times the population of Longford. The town of Dundalk has the same population as Leitrim. How come there isn't a 'superclub' there winning all around it? The County title is a rare visitor to the town.
JB81 wrote: So do you not count the games were Dublin beat Meath... 'Undefeated in over 3 decades' .... lol , good play on words...
JB81 wrote: I think it would be at least fair to say how many games were played between the two teams!
Powerhouse wrote: Funny how when Kerry or Mayo have runaways wins people are concerned that they are "untested" ahead of future games but when Dublin have the same the county must be split and the championship is in crisis!
Sonny678 wrote: » What happens when the population of Dublin hits over 2 million in the middle of this decade. How can can you expect a county like longford be expected to be in the same provience as Dublin. A Dublin A team and B team. Might be a better option. But I don't know what is the better option. But you can see Dublin getting stronger on top of what they have already done. And other counties are just playing catch up as the gap widens. Is on the cards. With so many strong football counties in their worst state in decades. The word crisis is approximate for the times. But when you have President of the GAA saying the GAA is thriving on the Sunday Game. They just don't care or just don't want to see the problems facing gaelic football. If Ireland win rugby world cup. It will be 5 or 6 years of Rugby mania gripping the country. As Dublin win 19 of 20 leinsters and are on the road to their second 4 in a row in a decade. It all could happen.
Powerhouse wrote: Neither does anyone seem bothered by the fact that Kerry has two and a half times the population of Monaghan (and 37 All-Irelands more than them) or that Donegal has four times the population of Longford. The town of Dundalk has the same population as Leitrim. How come there isn't a 'superclub' there winning all around it? The County title is a rare visitor to the town.
Sonny678 wrote: » But how much is kerry 37 All Irelands , periods of sucess in the 30s 40s 50s 70s 80s and 00s down to finance and how much is Dublin 2010s sucess down to finance. Is the GAA not an amateur organisation. Kerry when they were winning All Irelands in 30s 40s 50s 70s and 80s couldn't be awash with cash. It would be seem to me more down to good planning good structure great tradition players and managers. I know Kerry co do now pump money into kerry now. But they didn't in the 30s 40s or 50s 70s or 80s. Dublin win 1 All Ireland for every decade since 1940s. Then vast finance investment into Dublin from the GAA and sponsorship starting 10 years ago. And Dublin jump from 1 to 5 All Ireland and counting in a decade. Yes great structure great volunteer work. Great players and great managers all in Dublin. But Kerrys sucess and Dublins sucesss one seems to be fueled by more money. Kerry were winning All Irelands by the bucket load when the country was an economic basket case. And no one had a penny. Dublin are not PSG they are PSG Man City and Real Madrid rolled into 1. Brolly gives out about Cooper and his testimonial dinner. Yet no mention in the amount money Dublin is awash with. It's the great white elephant in the room that very few in the mainstream medis are willing to tackle. For an amateur organisation professional is always an issue. A professional team now in an amateur organisation has basically being ignored by the media.
Powerhouse wrote: As for Dublin's Leinster dominance, it has to be said that Leinster has rarely been as poor regarding Division 1 teams in the League as it has been in the past decade. In the 1996-2000, Kildare reached an All-Ireland final and won two Leinsters, Meath won two All-Irelands, and Offaly won a Leinster and a League title. Take Dublin out of the equation tomorrow morning and none of those counties (okay so Kildare seem to be improving) would be expected to feature in the All-Ireland final. They have to improve independently of Dublin. As Kerry and Mayo have shown several times in recent years when a team is well-prepared and going well they can be hugely competitive with Dublin.
Powerhouse wrote: Surely Dublin have underachieved over the decades? Surely they should be close to being on a par with Kerry most of the time? They should surely be immune to the slumps that have afflicted other counties?
Powerhouse wrote: I'm not sure how to answer the 'professionalism' thing. The team is capable of attracting sponsorship but are Dublin's players being paid? I am unaware of that.
Sonny678 wrote: » But Mayo have overachieved. It's like the county has this obsession to win Sam. To close the gap. It's an admirable obsession. And this drive and unrelenting hunger for Sam from Mayo is a sight to behold. The players and supporters wouldn't give up. It's to their credit. But when you compare to Galway they could be overachieving. Since Galway were last in a final Mayo have played in 6 finals. Since then Mayo have beaten Dublin twice and 2 draws . Mayo have bewten Kerry once and 1 draw. Galway havent beaten Dublin since 1920s or kerry since 60s. Mayo have beaten Tyrone Cork and Donegal all in recent years on the march to 6 finals. While Galway havent won a match in Croker in 16 years. Meath haven't being in divsion 1 since 2001. ( 2007 they were in divsion 1 b 16 team). Kildare have never won div 1 title . The last time Dublin had to face top divsion 1 team in their provience was over 15 years ago. Meath could be the new Cavan. While Kildare our leinster best hope after some underage sucess. But their delight and patting themselves on the back with a 9 point hammering last year v the dubs does not augur well. The Armagh loss could be were Kildare are really at. And seen what Tyrone did to Armagh it's not good. But Kildare need to say in div 1. If they can , maybe they will build a team to compete with Dublin. Here's hoping for the sake of leinster football.
Sonny678 wrote: » 6 All Irelands finals in 13 years. Outside kerry and Dublin is a very sucessful period. Remeber Mayo did not win 1 connacht in whole 70s. And Mayo did not reach an All Ireland final from 1951 to 1989. Nearly 40 years. 6 finals might not seem much today. But in the history of the game in Mayo and for any county would be a hugely sucessful . History making sucess.
Sonny678 wrote: » I know Meath was a division 4 county before 1940. And all my stats are from after 1940. I don't use many before. It was not til as you say Bonnie man that the championship did not really take off nationally til 1940s. That's why I dont consider Wexford team 14 to 18 an All time great team or Dublin 20s. Only 4 in a row team kerry from 29 to 32 deserves consideration.
Shurimgreat wrote: » Galway have won 6 All-Irelands since 1951. How on earth is this under achieving compared to Mayo? All I can put Dublin's current dominance down to is they finally got their act together in the early 2000s. Before that, they vastly underachieved when you consider their population. Also, Dublin were lucky to have Kevin Heffernan as their manager, one of the best in the history of the game. Take him out of the equation and its possible they would also have underachieved in the 70s and 80s with nothing to show for it. Current Dublin dominance accurately reflects their over-whelming resources. Once Dublin started to take gaelic football seriously, they were always going to blow away everyone else, no matter how hard the other counties tried. Its not as if the like of Tyrone, Kerry or Mayo aren't trying their utmost. They just cannot compete with the assembly line of young players Dublin can call on. I agree with other posters the county model of Sam Maguire is now obsolete and ultimately a failure. There are too big of disparities in terms of resources between the counties. Most games are nothing games with next to nothing except pride at stake.
Powerhouse wrote: But the question is if Mayo are overachieving? Historically they did dip hugely after the 1950/51 team winning just three Connacht titles in the following 30 years. That said, they have won 15 of the last 30 Connacht titles so their recent altitude is not new, though maybe their competitiveness in the All-Ireland series is. If they are considered to be overachieving then it must mean we are assuming that the doldrums they experienced almost without respite 1955-85 is the norm. I don't see why that should be the case.
Powerhouse wrote: The levels Meath reached post-1939 when essentially they replaced Kildare as Leinster's second county are the levels that have informed their ambitions ever since. Likewise, it seems unlikely Tyrone will expect to return to their pre-1980s state when they were only very occasional Ulster champions. Why should Mayo's ambitions be limited to the point where they regard an All-Ireland final defeat as overachievement?
Shurimgreat wrote: Galway have won 6 All-Irelands since 1951. How on earth is this under achieving compared to Mayo?
Powerhouse wrote: » Two observations on this - 1) this assumes that Dublin's success is not just part of a cycle which will wane in the future as the current players age. As we saw with Kilkenny hurlers it is amazing what the loss of a few key players can do. Suddenly other players who looked great in a stronger team can look ordinary. Also, while Dublin can be argued to have underachieved in several decades is their current state really likely to be an average level of performance into the future? Is there really enough evidence to write off the entire competition when it wasn't written off by people during the previous decade when Kerry won five All-Irelands? and 2) Why is the county model a failure because of disparities in resources? Look at a competition like the Champions' League - Real Madrid have won three of the last four competitions. The winner will come from about four clubs the names of which would generally be agreed by most people in advance. The idea that the county model as such is a failure is superficially attractive but when you look at other models the same thing happens. There is no competition where every team has an equal chance of winning and that is usually a question of resources anyway.
Sonny678 wrote: » Mayo have overachieved with 6 finals compared to other counties .Laois and Monaghan have not reached a final since 1930s Kildare have played in 1 final in 90 years Roscomon have played in 2 finals in 60 years eg 1980 and 1962 Donegal have reached 3 finals in its history Cavan haven't reached a final in 70 years When you compare Mayo's record of 6 finals in 15 years. It is an outstanding record.
Bonniedog wrote: » We don't call our county ground Parnell Park for no reason.
Bonniedog wrote: » As you say up to 40s it was limited championship. Dublin, Kerry, Tipp and Cork won All Irelands in years when there were only 6/7 county teams, and they were club teams. Dubs team in 20s was good team and that was start of mass involvement and big crowds, and the rivalry with Kerry which had political connotations. I know Paul Rouse has done some good stuff on it, but a lot the history still to be told. GAA actually came close to being destroyed after the Parnell crisis. They had Church and Brits and Ancient Order of Hibernians all trying to put us down. You will also know Sonny from your own place that much of Dubs/Meath rivalry in football was not so much based on county loyalty but on proximity of clubs along our northern frontier!I played out in Wild Geese in Oldtown a few times and apparently the far goal is in Meath!
Powerhouse wrote: Why compare Mayo to Laois, to take just one example? Laois have one Leinster title since 1946. Mayo have 24 Connacht titles in the same time-frame. That's the context for Mayo - look at the number of opportunities that have had by being in the last four/eight compared with Laois. Yes, many counties can be found which have not been in an All-Ireland final in decades if ever, but is that a realistic context for judging a county with 46 provincial titles (only Kerry and Dublin have won more meaning only those counties have been in the All-Ireland last four more often and been on the brink of such opportunity with such frequency) and 11 National Leagues? None of those counties you mention compare with Mayo for historical achievement and ongoing potential (Cavan does but their tradition, unfortunately, is no longer a successful one).
JB81 wrote: Beating or not beating Dublin or Kerry is not a barometer for success or lack thereof. Mayo are not successful just because they beat Dublin and Kerry a couple of times. Means nothing if they don't take home the title. They have a good team without doubt, but successful? I don't think so. Maybe a little unlucky recently. They haven't even threatened a league title.
JB81 wrote: Galway have won 2 All Ireland in the recent past. Just because they didn't beat Kerry or Dublin to win them does mean they don't count.
JB81 wrote: Mayo have a better team than Galway in the last 10+ years. But they are not delivering on their promise. Galway had a better team than Mayo for the period before that, and delivered with 2 All-Irelands, success! They hammered the Meath team that hammered the Kerry team in one of them ( i think this was mentioned in a post or two above ). Prior to that Mayo had a better team than Galway ( as did Roscommon ) around the late 80's mid 90's, but again no silverware, no success!
BonnieSituation wrote: » Even that concession to a Meathman* and Sonny isn't happy. It's nearly 4km from the western goal to the Ashbourne border from the The Orchard grounds. --- *ish
BonnieSituation wrote: It's nearly 4km from the western goal to the Ashbourne border from the The Orchard grounds.
