The Greatest Teams Ever Debate (Dublin - The Greatest Team Ever?)

Powerhouse

Sonny678 wrote: »

Are Meath Down Galway Cavan Offaly Armagh not all similar counties to Mayo.

To a point they are though it's well worth noting that half of Offaly and half of Galway are hurling predominant areas. But let's look at it in more detail. All the counties you mention have won an All-Ireland or multiple All-Irelands since Mayo last won one themselves.

To crystallise properly the context for that consider this - all have won less provincial titles than Mayo (some very significantly less) and as such have not found themselves on the threshold of an All-Ireland so often. All have won less All-Ireland Minor and Under-21 titles too (bar Galway who have parity on Under-21 titles).

By almost any metric (they even have more National Leagues than any of these) Mayo have had more opportunity than any of these counties to be successful at All-Ireland Senior level but have failed to do so. Converse to your intention I think, the counties you mention provide an argument that Mayo have underachieved rather than in fact bolstering a case that they have overachieved.

blanch152

Shurimgreat wrote: »

As I said, Dublin have finally got their act together. 50 full time coaches, significant funding from the GAA for games development, huge sponsorship deals. The population of Dublin rapidly increases, while it is stagnant or declines elsewhere. For each rural person that moves to Dublin and sets up their home there, its a win for Dublin and a loss for the rural locality. This trend is one way, towards Dublin.

Dublin got their act together eventually and it looks like curtains for everyone else.

The difference between Dublin getting their act together and Westmeath, Carlow or Longford getting their act together is still light years.

Only one county can break the traditional cycle of golden teams and generations, etc and that's Dublin. Dublin have the resources to produce a golden generation every generation.

Its pretty amazing that Dublin are struggling in the hurling though. If they ever decide to get their act together there, they could easily dominate for decades. I suppose the lack of tradition and strong clubs is holding them back.

The "50 full-time coaches" are for juvenile participation, not for training senior county teams. There is a world of a difference between winning minor All-Irelands and winning senior ones, let alone trying to make the case that having lots of U-10s playing sport for their health inevitably leads to success at senior inter-county level. If that was the case, Crewe Alexander and Southampton would be at the top of the Premier League every year fighting it out for the title.

The country as a whole will be reaping the benefit in years to come for the investment in Dublin GAA through the healthier outcome for children in the capital who were less likely to be sports active than their country cousins prior to the investment.

Bonniedog

Sonny678 wrote: »

I'm very happy that played you football in Meath. It's something you can be proud of til your dying day. Something to tell the grandchildren.

that was me, the other Bonnie, and it was "hurling" of some description

Tombo2001

Sonny678 wrote: »

Meath could become the new Cavan.

Every team outside the big two who had Meaths similar sucess. That sucessful period was followed up with decades of little little sucess. Wexford have never reached the heights of the 4 in a row years. Cavan have never reached the heights of the 40s and 50s again. And it took Galway 32 years in 1998 before they won Sam again after their most sucessful period from 56 to 66.

Meath though have had a capacity in the past to come from nowhere and knock Dublin from their perch. And then become the dominate force in leinster football. This has happened on numerous occasions. But a Dublin are so strong and Meath are so weak. There is no evidence to say this will happen again.

For Meath to do that they need great players , a best of footballer in Ireland type of figure like Jack Quinn and Colm O Rourke to emerge again . And need another great manager like Sean Boylan Fr. Tully and Peter McDermont to emerge on the scene again. Basically Andy McEntee has to be another Sean Boylan or Meaths version of Jimmy McGuiness.

The probality is Meath could now go decades without it sucess. Maybe the old stubborn Meath spirit can again emerge and produce and another great Meath team will mushroom over night. But again there is no concrete evidence to say the above . Meath simply put are in trouble. Hopefully not for the sake of the leinster championship. But there are enough warning sign to indicate the above might be true.

I think Meath and Cavan is a very valid comparison for this reason.

Look at the population of Ireland by county in 1930; compared to now.

The population of Cavan has dropped in the past 100 years while the national population has doubled. Relatively speaking, it is a much smaller county today by population than it was 100 years ago. The drop in its relative population has meant it is unlikely to be a GAA powerhouse again.

Look at what has happened in Meath over the past 30 years. Its population has exploded. I'd be interested in feedback from people living in Meath on this. Its population has exploded but (i) a huge percentage of people living there have large commuting times, which means there is less time available for volunteering in things like GAA and (ii) the larger towns are all ones where really there are more Dublin flags than Meath flags. The county's identity has been somewhat diluted.

Sonny678

Powerhouse wrote:

To a point they are though it's well worth noting that half of Offaly and half of Galway are hurling predominant areas. But let's look at it in more detail. All the counties you mention have won an All-Ireland or multiple All-Irelands since Mayo last won one themselves.

You said "to a point". When someone says "To a point". You can then say you are kind of agreeing with what I am saying. But you are stubborn to admit it. Go on. Powerhouse admit it. They have overachieved. We know you want to. "To a point"

Sonny678

Bonniedog wrote:

that was me, the other Bonnie, and it was "hurling" of some description

Tombo2001 wrote:

Look at what has happened in Meath over the past 30 years. Its population has exploded. I'd be interested in feedback from people living in Meath on this. Its population has exploded but (i) a huge percentage of people living there have large commuting times, which means there is less time available for volunteering in things like GAA and (ii) the larger towns are all ones where really there are more Dublin flags than Meath flags. The county's identity has been somewhat diluted.

Tombo 100% correct. I agree totally
I don't like it. But it's the truth.

Utopia Parkway

Sonny678 wrote: »

When you compare Mayo's record of 6 finals in 15 years. It is an outstanding record.

It is but there are no prizes for 2nd place.

Galway lost 3 finals in a row in the early 70's and that team is more or less completely forgotten about. Even in Galway.

BonnieSituation

Bonniedog wrote: »

Bit closer than that? There black and white things with spots. And that wasn't the WAGS

I know GAA in Meath is in a down-slope at the minute. But using Dalmatians as goals is cruel!

---

Not to drag this off-topic... but...

https://goo.gl/maps/BiACnYQHa5k

JB81

Sonny678 wrote: »

But Galways record in Croker no win
Between 2001 and 2017 16 years
Between 1984 and 1997 13 years.
Is very poor.
If you take away those 4 great year 98 to 01. Galway have been a divsion 2 and sometimes a divsion 3 since 1983 . From 83 to 97. And 01 to 17.

Galway won 4 finals between 56 and 66. And won 7 finals between 20s and 60s. This is the golden years of Galway football. But 2 wins in 50 years. Puts behind the above Galway
1 Kerry 2 Dublin 3 Meath 4 Cork 5 Down / Offaly / Tyrone

Galway in the years 30s to 60s was the years of greatness of Galway football . In the last 50 years has been more patchy.
1920s to 1960s 7 All Ireland titles
71 to 83 lost 4 finals lost 71 73 74 83
84 to 97 No wins in championship in Croker Croker
98 to 01 Galway r back. 3 finals and 2 wins .
01 to 17 No wins in championship in Croker.

Since 66 Galway with exception of 71 to 83 and 98 to 01. Galway have never reached height of the great Galway years 30s 40s 50s 60s

Your initial point was 'Mayo are over achieving'.. but you are only basing that on their comparison to Galway.
They just have a better team than Galway at the moment.
They have so many chances to reach the pinacle of the sport and failed, this is definitely not over achieving. 6 finals etc... is impressive, very impressive and a good team, but over achieving, definitely not, over achieving when compared to Galway at present, yes definitely, because they have a better team at the moment.
Which was not always the case. And the time when Galway had a better team they were over achieving compared to Mayo, they delivered 2 All Irelands.
The Galway team of the 60's is one of the best ever, Galway will probably never reach those heights again, its not easy.. Just ask Mickey Harte. But there is no shame in that.

You can't just say Mayo are over achieving compared to one team. They are over achieving compared to probably most teams in Ireland at the moment in the recent past, bar Dublin ,Kerry, Tyrone, Armagh, Donegal, Cork, Meath, Galway, or basically anyone who has won an All Ireland since 1951...

They are also under achieving compared to their own County team of the 50's... just like you say above 'Galway have never reached height of the great Galway years 30s 40s 50s 60s'

So look lets call a spade a spade, they are not over achieving. They are competing admirably, and have been unfortunate to be at their best in years at the same time as this Dublin team. But they are always pretty much beat by a better team, Kerry in the 00's, Meath before that etc...

DoctaDee

Bonniedog wrote: »

Bit closer than that? There black and white things with spots. And that wasn't the WAGS

The Naul & Garristown would be closer to the border than Oldtown, similarly Stamullen on the other side of the wall - but Oldtown has that remote feel - reminds me of those old sci-fi films when the compass just goes apeshít for no reason, you've really no idea where ya are ..

BonnieSituation

DoctaDee wrote: »

The Naul & Garristown would be closer to the border than Oldtown, similarly Stamullen on the other side of the wall - but Oldtown has that remote feel - reminds me of those old sci-fi films when the compass just goes apeshít for no reason, you've really no idea where ya are ..

The back pitch of Sarsfields is even closer to the border. But you don't see us worrying. Amazing how little we worry about Kildare.

Bonniedog

DoctaDee wrote: »

The Naul & Garristown would be closer to the border than Oldtown, similarly Stamullen on the other side of the wall - but Oldtown has that remote feel - reminds me of those old sci-fi films when the compass just goes apeshít for no reason, you've really no idea where ya are ..

Good jesus. A chap can't tell a story anymore

Black and white things were big dogs, we think..........

DoctaDee

Bonniedog wrote: »

Good jesus. A chap can't tell a story anymore

Black and white things were big dogs, we think..........

.. nope they're called Fingal Ravens ..

Powerhouse

Sonny678 wrote: »

You said "to a point". When someone says "To a point". You can then say you are kind of agreeing with what I am saying. But you are stubborn to admit it. Go on. Powerhouse admit it. They have overachieved. We know you want to. "To a point"

If I wanted to agree with you I'd do so. I said the are similar counties to Mayo "to a point" in that they are rural counties and several of them are also football predominant counties.

I said to "to a point" only because the comparison is not valid beyond a certain stage. For example, two of the counties have a strong hurling tradition - Galway and Offaly have won several All-Ireland hurling titles since Mayo last won an All-Ireland. Moreover, maybe Kildare and Meath are no longer classic rural counties - in the sense that Mayo is - given that they are part of the Dublin sprawl.

By comparison with all those counties Mayo are underachievers at All-Ireland Senior level. The figures bear this out. Mayo outstrip them by almost any other measure except in their ability to win All-Ireland Senior titles. By comparison with all those counties they have the infrastructure and resources to do so but have come up short. That's the very definition of underachievement.

Bonniedog

DoctaDee wrote: »

.. nope they're called Fingal Ravens ..

These ones didn't try to bite or engage in unnatural relations.

Sonny678

Powerhouse wrote:

If I wanted to agree with you I'd do so. I said the are similar counties to Mayo "to a point" in that they are rural counties and several of them are also football predominant counties.

Powerhouse wrote:

I said to "to a point" only because the comparison is not valid beyond a certain stage. For example, two of the counties have a strong hurling tradition - Galway and Offaly have won several All-Ireland hurling titles since Mayo last won an All-Ireland. Moreover, maybe Kildare and Meath are no longer classic rural counties - in the sense that Mayo is - given that they are part of the Dublin sprawl.

Powerhouse wrote:

By comparison with all those counties Mayo are underachievers at All-Ireland Senior level. The figures bear this out. Mayo outstrip them by almost any other measure except in their ability to win All-Ireland Senior titles. By comparison with all those counties they have the infrastructure and resources to do so but have come up short. That's the very definition of underachievement.

I was only kidding by saying to a point.

Mayo are underachieving with All Ireland wins.
But getting to finals on such regular basis is very impressive.
Leaving their failure to win to won aside 6 final appearances in 15. Is a very high rate. Outside kerry and Dublin I would say it is one of the highest number of final appearances a county has ever had in the history of gaelic football in a short period of time. The only two other counties I would say got to so many finals in short period other then kerry and Dublin. Would have been Cavan in the 30s and 40s and early 50s. And Meath reaching 7 finals in 14 years between 1987 and 2001. The difference being of course Cavan and Meath won. So that's why saying Mayo overachieved
. Because they didnt win means saying they overachieved is a hollow statement. But 6 finals in 12 years is one of the highest number of final appearances ever in the history of game.

Maybe what I should say. That the team of 04 and 06 overachieved and 96 and 97 team overachieved. The 11 to 17 are probaly the greatest never to win Sam.
But 04 and 06 were not as good an outfit. And 96 97 overachieved reaching two finals. They had a quality defence and midfield but a poor forward line. 96 97 had div 1 defence but div 2 maybe 3 forward line. Of McMemanin Casey Finnerty and Horan. Horan was the only one who could be considered a good forward. But compared to Meaths in 96 it was poor. Meaths was full of all stars and one of the best forwards lines of the last 20 years. Eg Tommy Dowd Trevor Giles Graham Geragthy Evan Kelly Brendan Reilly Ollie Murphy.

The 96 97 team was built on good defenders and super fitness. The 11 and 17 team has superplayers all over the field. And 04 and 06 was an inferior outfit to 11 to 17 team. Maybe saying the teams of 04 and 96 overachieved reaching 4 finals in 96 97 04 and 06.

Sonny678

Lads I'm going to take break a from boardsGaa. It's ain't working for me on boards. I think I have annoyed and pissed off all the Dubs here. That was never my intention. The Dubs have a wonderful team, a great team. The best I have seen in the last 30 years and one of the greatest ever. I didn't mean to demean their great achievements. Maybe deep down I'm just frustrated of my own counties weak opposition to the Dubs currently.

I seem to go on these long rambling messages full of stats all over the place. I seem not be able to respond with concise 5 or 6 line sentences. It has to be an essay. So apologises for the bad punctuality and grammar at times. I can lose the run of myself.

Anyway my time on boards gaa. Is like I'm going into the local pub for a 1 or two quite pints. But I end up getting mad drunk and make a complete show of myself . And start fighting with all the regular customers in the bar and get thrown out.

So to all the top Dubs like Bonniedog, Blanch152, Davedanon, and Talking Bread ( Kildare man) Powerhouse ( where ever your from) and JB81 amd naughb4 ,Tombo 2001 and the gentleman who is called Stoner from Donegal and many more.

Take care all. Enjoy the break of closed season and before you know it , the Byrne Cup McKenna Cup Fbd cup will be all up and running again.

Enjoyed immensely all the brillant conversations and great debate I have read here with all the many great gaels here. I will keep an eye on how thing are going from time time.( To make sure the Bonniedog is behaving to himself.) But their will no rambling messages from me no more .( A sigh of relief is heard all around the boards)

Anyway Keep it real PEACE
Sonny
PS Meath for Sam 2028.

Bonniedog

Sonny, you should be writing for a paper or putting it in books.

You are mine of info and well proud of your county. Don't sometimes have the time to properly engage with you but you are one of best posters on any GAA forum.

And seriously, someone with your knowledge really should be looking at bigger picture, as in book or blog.

Irellevant

naughtb4 wrote: »

I think thats what makes it tougher, before if three of the best teams in the country were in Ulster Kerry would only play one of them, with the qualifiers you tend to get the best teams in the last 4, not the singularly best team in each Province

I agree , this was just stating I don't totally hate the system

seligehgit

Ah Sonny hang tough,you're a breath of fresh air.You've an encyclopedia like knowledge and are within your rights to be a proud Royal man!

Not to sure if Stoner was aware he's a native of Donegal!

Stoner

Lol. Don't tell the father in law or RSF

Sonny hang around. It's all good stuff.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Sonny, your posts are fascinating.

Bonniedog

seligehgit wrote: »

Ah Sonny hang tough,you're a breath of fresh air.You've an encyclopedia like knowledge and are within your rights to be a proud Royal man!

Not to sure if Stoner was aware he's a native of Donegal!

But to back up other posts. sonny should stay.

I've gotten a few bans which I took on chin!, but this forum is good and mostly civilized and people from all counties have their say. Even jayop if he ever returns from some godforsaken place in Tyrone.

Bonniedog

Stoner wrote: »

Lol. Don't tell the father in law or RSF

Sonny hang around. It's all good stuff.

go back to Letterkenny!

Stoner

Bonniedog wrote:

go back to Letterkenny!

At least they understand me there

seligehgit

Bonniedog wrote: »

But to back up other posts. sonny should stay.

I've gotten a few bans which I took on chin!, but this forum is good and mostly civilized and people from all counties have their say. Even jayop if he ever returns from some godforsaken place in Tyrone.

Where's he gone to?The lone Red Hand supporter excepting Bonnie Situation is missed,he might return to the pitch if Colm Kavanagh grabs an All Star!

blanch152

Sonny678 wrote: »

Lads I'm going to take break a from boardsGaa. It's ain't working for me on boards. I think I have annoyed and pissed off all the Dubs here..

Sonny, you certainly haven't annoyed or pissed off me. I don't agree with all of your opinions, but they are your opinions, and you are entitled to express them and get into healthy debate.

Us Dubs really miss the Meath rivalry too, wish they were just a little bit better, but not too much

JB81

You'll be missed on this thread Sonny, never pissed me of or annoyed me at all..
Unfortunately for you, you will have to wait to probably 2029 for Meath for Sam.
Sure aren't Tyrone going to win it in 2028 when young Canavan ( Son of God as he is known by then ) will already be in the hall of fame

Amprodude

Seriously guys this Dublin team have barely fallen over the line in All Ireland finals and people saying they are unbeatable the dream team etc. Come on ffs only for Mayo pressing the self destruct button on the last 2 All Irelands we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. This team are just average at their greatest and because Leinster is so weak right now makes Dublin look alot better than what they really are. The Kerry and Tyrone teams of the 00's, the 80's Cork and Meath teams/Kerry team of the 1970's would maul this team single handedly.

Bonniedog

Ampro, the thing about winning is you win.

Five All Irelands out of seven.

Oh yes ,,,,,