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The Greatest Teams Ever Debate (Dublin - The Greatest Team Ever?)
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I live in a rural area and my young lad plays football, soccer and rugby. That's typical of his age group. The presumption that Kerry is football only and that anything else is frowned upon is wrong. There are lots of sports to pick from.
You simply cannot compare rural clubs with the development squads across all sports in cites which forces young players to choose. For example, Paul Mannion played under 16 soccer for Ireland and could easily have taken another path as many do, and by that I don't mean he could be playing for Barcelona, I mean he could be playing Leinster Senior League every week instead of inter-county football. There are so many more options available to young guys in cities that comparisons with rural Kerry are irrelevant.0 -
Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »Is the football hurling divide that big in Tipp?
Suffuce to say that it is far more of a dual county than Kerry.0 -
This Dublin team is unarguably one of the top 3 or 4 teams of all time and in the discussion as the greatest (they're my number 1) and may well go on to be definitively the greatest team of all time.5 all irelands in 7 years ,4 league titles in a row and the unbeaten record they set are great achievements.
In the 70's and 80's the competition put forward by Ulster and Connacht teams was quite weak, there was a 20 year span where the provincial champions in Connacht and Ulster failed to beat a team from Munster or Leinster in an all Ireland semi final.People say Dublin face poor competition these days bit it's really no worse than what Kerry faced in the 70's and 80's they had very few real challengers either it's just with the passing of time people forget the negatives of that era and only focus on the good things.
This Dublin team are a proper team and thus individuals don't stand out anywhere near as much as they would have 20 or 30 years ago when the sport was less team oriented. Ciaran Kilkenny is a prime example of this, if he was a more selfish player he would score a lot more and look a lot more flashy but he's a proper team player and willing to sacrifice himself for the cause.
This Dublin team are the best of all time in real terms as obviously a good team from today is miles ahead of teams of the past, the fitness and the general skill level of the players of today's game is miles ahead of the players of the past , this is simply inarguable. Today if a player can't kick well with both feet it's considered to be a liability, 20 or 30 years ago a player kicking well with both feet was considered a great achievement when it is bog standard now.0 -
I have to say some of the level of debate on here is excellent and very thought provoking.
I totally respect anyone who thinks the current is the best with fitness. But hand and on heart, the more I read and have to think about my argument the more I think I'm on the right side of the debate. But still I'm really enjoying the level of debate. The standard of debate here would make the Sunday Game punditry seem like a kindergarden level of chat.
Thanks Talking Bread for answering my point on Kristinov and Ali. But I still think if you said to any boxing expert that Kristinov was better then Ali, u won't find many to agree.
I think the problem with the current sportsmen are the greatest theory. Is ur leaving out one single thing ie temperament and mental toughness and barriers people have to get over to win.
Would Kristinov have been able to go to prison, take on the American government and carry the hopes of his people on his back. And then go into the ring and fight liston, Frazier and Foreman. The one thing that made Ali greater was the greatness of his rivals. According to writers like Mailer when Frazier and Ali fought the power of their punches was unnatural. And those men when they hit each other , it was so hard people said at time both men nearly killed each other in the ring. , The comment said at the time used " it was the closest to death both men ever came to".
Would Kristinov ever fought in such circumstances. Would he have had the mental toughness Ali had. All boxing experts would laugh in your face if you said he would.
If you said Rory McIroy was better then Jack Nicklaus, golfing experts would not agree.
And again the obese Babe Ruth is considered the greatest Baseball player ever.
The English soccer team of 2016 were mentally fragile. Full of ego and no leadership. While team of 66 (.still considered England's greatest sporting achievement ever) was strong mentally and full of leaders. If you said to any English supporter that the team of 2016 was better then the 66 team I think they would get so angry they would nearly punch you in the face . The team of 66 are adored in England. And placed on pedestal above any other group of individuals from sport or any other section of life in England in the last 50 years. With the exception of the Beatles and the Royal Family.
Also the barriers teams and people had to overcome in the past r being largely ignored. Ali having to overcome the racial hatred of the 60s. Or even men and women overcoming the hardships of 1940s and 1950s Ireland. Many players from that time might have had to work hard labour or manual work all week and then train and play football. Today most players have office style jobs or in full time college. Yes there is the pressures of modern life. But Ieland in 40s and 50s with emigration and poverty had a allot of problems too.
The 40s and 50s generation are called by sociologist as the greatest generation. The current generation the millennial are labelled the snowflake generation. The Greatest generation v The Snowfake generation. Surely the clue is in the title of each generation which one should be considered the "GREATEST " generation.
Overall I think people are ignoring mental toughness and temperament and that only this generation of footballers were mentally tough.
In every other sportfield, teams from the past are considered the greatest eg Brazil 1970 in soccer. In England the liverpool team of the 70s and 80s are still the benchmark on which all English teams are graded against. Go to liverpool and tell scourers that the teams of 70s and 80s were crap. And see what reaction you will get.
I just don't understand why gaelic football is unique and that only their current stars or the best.
Player like Matt Connor would still stand out today. Connolly is the most talented in the modern game. But he wouldn't come close to Matt Connor. Connolly is a poor man's Graham Geraghty. Until Connolly wins an All star at wing back, wing forward and full forward. Gets trials with Arsenal. And plays rugby in the Irish league with Bucanneers. And is the best player in international rules series. ( Geraghty did all the above). Then and only then should Connolly be in the same league as Graham Geraghty.
PS
(When Geraghty went over to Arsenal for a trail. Paul Merson said Geraghty was the fittest athlete he ever saw. When Brian O Driscoll saw Kieran McGeeney in the gym he was shocked at the level of fitness of geezer and mistakenly thought he was a New Zealand rugby player.) While Jerry Kieran think today's GAA players are unfit. It's all a matter of opinion, I suspose.
Anyway Matt Connor is the most naturally gifted player I have ever seen. His scoring rate was off the wall. And this was a time when forwards weren't protected by referees. Check his scoring on Wikipedia. It's unreal. Remeber his career ended when he was 25. What Connor had was the best balance I ever saw from a player. Similar to George Best.
Frank McGuigan had a touch of genius too. And Peter Cavanan is the best forward I have seen in the last 25 years. But Connor was on a different level skill wise. Cooper would be the only modern player you could compare skillwise. But Cooper would have found it hard years ago with little protection from the ref to flourish. Cooper was quite light. While Connor was stocky and built well. Players like Egan, O Rourke ,Tony McTeague, Sean O Neill and Jimmy Keaveney all had to be physically tough because with players like Niall Calahine, Sean Doherty ,Paddy McCormack and Mick Kennedy around and no protection from the ref. Many of today's players wouldn't have lasted a minute up against the Dublin defence of the 70s. They would have been in hospital like Mickey Ned Sullivan after 1975 All Ireland final.
In terms of population, it's a difficult one to gauge. No team with less then 10000 have won an All Ireland since 1982. Yet counties like Antrim, louth and Wicklow all with good populations have been laregly unsucessful . Wicklow has a good population. A strong club scene. A great GAA following. And good supporters who love their GAA. And yet they have never won a provincial title and only won their first match in Croke in the last 10 years.
But Dublins population is just to big to ignore. And as it grows it will be a bigger issue. Also there is a massive social change in Dublin GAA at the moment. With a change from players coming from working class areas to players coming from affluent middle class areas eg Cuala winning the All Ireland club title( Bonos parish). There has been a huge shift of GAA to the Dublin suburbs in the last 15 years. And with Dublin suburbia growing and growing. This will be a huge help to Dublin not a hinderance .
(So many of the current Dublin team have country parents eg McMemanin. People from thecountry came up to Dublin years ago and moved up the social ladder and their sons and daughters have been winning All Irelands left right and centee for Dublin in all codes in all grades since.)
Meath it is said that the migration from the west was a reason for Mesth emerging in the 40s with the land commission. And yes the west brought a love of GAA and some players from.80s and 90s had West parents. But when Meath won All Irelands in the 40s 50s and 60s, the migration approved by government at the time( in the form of the land commission) was only just occurring while Meath were winning All Irelands. So migration had little influence on the sucessful Meath teams in the 40s 50s 60s teams.
And look at Kildare they have a massive connacht population. Migration to kildare from the west and the land commission happenned in kildare also.There's a huge Galway community in Kildare and yet it did not have any influence. But migration to Dublin from country areas is an example of how migration can lead to huge sucess on the field.
Meath is a county that is having a surge in population. Also Kildare too and the lazy arguement is Meath and Kildare should be doing better with the big population surge. The problem and flaw in this arguement is that population growth in Meath is basically Dubs supporting Dublin . While their kids want to play for Dublin are now residing in Meath. Ashbourne is the second biggest town in Meath. Yet well over 70% or even more of residents in the town are Dubs.
The latest census figures said 18% of people in Cork are not from Cork. 80% of people in Cork are from Cork. 20% of people in Donegal are not from Donegal. The county from the latest census with the highest number of people residing in the county from outside the county is Meath. Nearly 70% of people in Meath are from outside the county now. Only about 36% of Meaths population is now from Meath.
This population surge will not help Meath why? Coz they are all Dubs. and secondly this population growth in Meath is a negative one for Meath GAA as a whole. Because it's diluting the counties identity. In the 80s and 90s, Meath had a strong sense of identity . Us against the other 31 counties. Now that identify is fading fast.
And the other problem of players born in Meath and playing and learning their trade with Meath clubs. Their allegiances are not to Meath, they arw elsewhere eg Dublin. The sons and daughters of Dublin parents in Meath support and want to play for Dublin . Simply put They're offspring support and want to play for Dublin. So Meath GAA is now turning into a football nursery for future Dublin players. And what are the GAA doing about that? feck all.
Counties like Meath, Kildare, Laois, Westmeath, Wicklow, Louth, Wexford, Offaly, Cork, Galway, Derry, Armagh and Antrim are going through some of there worst times ever in decades. What are the GAA doing in response. Well according to the current GAA president on the Sunday Game last weekend. The GAA thriving. Yes it is thriving in Dublin. But outside the capital it is dying a slow death. Meath since 2001 are eerily following the same path of Cavan after the 50s0 -
Prickly Pete wrote: »This Dublin team is unarguably one of the top 3 or 4 teams of all time and in the discussion as the greatest (they're my number 1) and may well go on to be definitively the greatest team of all time.5 all irelands in 7 years ,4 league titles in a row and the unbeaten record they set are great achievements.
In the 70's and 80's the competition put forward by Ulster and Connacht teams was quite weak, there was a 20 year span where the provincial champions in Connacht and Ulster failed to beat a team from Munster or Leinster in an all Ireland semi final.People say Dublin face poor competition these days bit it's really no worse than what Kerry faced in the 70's and 80's they had very few real challengers either it's just with the passing of time people forget the negatives of that era and only focus on the good things.
This Dublin team are a proper team and thus individuals don't stand out anywhere near as much as they would have 20 or 30 years ago when the sport was less team oriented. Ciaran Kilkenny is a prime example of this, if he was a more selfish player he would score a lot more and look a lot more flashy but he's a proper team player and willing to sacrifice himself for the cause.
This Dublin team are the best of all time in real terms as obviously a good team from today is miles ahead of teams of the past, the fitness and the general skill level of the players of today's game is miles ahead of the players of the past , this is simply inarguable. Today if a player can't kick well with both feet it's considered to be a liability, 20 or 30 years ago a player kicking well with both feet was considered a great achievement when it is bog standard now.
I wouldn't be old enough to comment with authority on "all time greatest" in any sphere but I did comment earlier on the level of Dublin's competition. My point was that people are saying that it is far more competitive these days than before but in reality the amount of games Dublin will actually have any danger of losing are very few and far between. They are four competitive games at most away from five in a row. It has never been otherwise in Gaelic Football for the top team I suspect and is the case in most sports too from what I can see but it should be said.
That said I am always suspicious of deeper standards when I see long unbeaten runs in any sport!
I cannot ever recall a player kicking with both feet being considered a "great achievement" to be honest. In fact I'd always have seen it pointed out as a critical weakness in a player if he couldn't. Bernard Flynn scored three with his right foot and three with his left back in the 1991 All Ireland final. (On an aside Mikey Sheehy chipped a ball up into his hands in the 1975 final before scoring a point in the same movement. I thought of that when I saw Eoghan O'Gara need two attempts to pick the ball in the recent final before nearly missing a point from 15 yards. I had to remind myself that O'Gara is obviously much the much better player because he is around now.)
But I was young back then, younger than you probably so you might be right in your recollections about two-footed player. But there are plenty of footballers who might be able to kick with both feet these days but are not often required to do so in games. The majority of the time the ball is moved with the fist.
As for Ciaran Kilkenny, well let's not gild the lily too much on that one. He is clearly following instructions, it's not that he's a much nicer guy than those selfish gits back in the '70s who wouldn't play for the team. It's just a different style of play where the game is now possession at all costs. If Kilkenny played three matches as a nominal wing-forward in an All Ireland series 20 years ago and scored a grand total of 0-1 he'd have been looking over his shoulder at the bench. None of this makes him better or worse, just different. However, as a forward, it must be far easier to achieve consistency when you know you don't have to score. That made his virtual eclipse in the All Ireland final all the more interesting.0 -
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Sonny678 wrote:Connolly is a poor man's Graham Geraghty.
Completely different player Sonny.
Plus I don't believe the comments about him being the fittest man Merson ever saw.
They said the same about Kevin Moran. GAA people are always banging on about how fit their players are.
It's not true IMO. There's no way they are fitter than professionals, I'd say they might be the fittest amateurs they ever saw, paying them a compliment that we take as an endorsement of our whole game
I remember geraghty heading over to the UK, he didn't make it Sonny, wasn't good enough. Otherwise he would stayed IMO.
Moran made it at both sports and he's pretty much the only one to do it at that level that I know of. I'm including Long and Barry etc. He's two AIs and about 15 years in the UK about 10 at United.
GAA football and more so hurling are my favorite sports, but we've a terrible habit of blowing smoke up our own holes wrt to fitness.
Brian O'Driscoll would burst Mcgeaney on a Rugby pitch IMO, otherwise we'd have load of lads transferring not just M Galway
Plus if I remember correctly Geraghty got pushed around by the Oz players in that international series he was sent home from. That lad he got in a tangle with was from their underage team and he still put him on his arse!!! (I'm joking here I didn't see the incident but I know he delivered his "racist" comments from the deck)
Lee Keegan played a stormer the last day and he looked pretty flabby walking around afterwards, would you see that in the premiere league or the Irish rugby team ?
GAA players are not pros they are very fit amateurs, and largely speaking imo many would go pro in another sport if they could.0 -
I wouldn't say they are completely different players. I would say the opposite . They were very similar type of players. But you see Geraghty was more versatile, you could have played GG in corner back or full back or full forward. He was an outstanding minor and under 21 centre back.
Connolly is a number 12. Right half forward. Geraghty was a number 12 right half forward between 1996-1998.
Connolly is the most talented footballer in Ireland at the moment. And one of Dublins most talented players ever. Gerathy is Meaths most talented footballer ever. And one of the most talented footballers of the last 25 years.
So it not like I'm comparing Sean Doherty or Mick Lyons to Bernard Brogan.
Connolly has pace vision and can score. Geraghty had pace vision and can score. Quite similar players, the style of play was similar.
They were also similar temperament wise. Both could lose the head easily.
The difference Geraghty was better all round footballer, a greater footballer. If Paudi O Se was a forward and had great forward skills. If he had silky forward skills , he would have been Graham Geraghty. Paudi O Se was a fearless player. So was GG. I saw Geraghty many a time surrounded by 3 or 4 players and he would beat them all for the ball and take every single one of them all on his own. Geragthy was one of the most fearless forwards I ever saw play.
As a minor and under 21 , he led Meath to All Irelands in both grades as a swashbuckling centre back. And probaly had some of greatest ever displays given by an underage player in the history of Meath football. He was a revelation at minor and under 21 level. And immediately at senior level in his first year playing in the championship, he was a revelation also.
Geragthy first was a wing back... when he played wing back he was a similar type of wing back to Lee Keegan. He scored a magic individual goal v Dublin in 94 leinster final. When he was wing back he was the best wing back in Ireland. He was man of the match in 94 leinster final. Alex Ferguson was at the match and was raving about Geraghty afterwards. All star wing back.
Then he moved to wing forward in 96. Similar type of player to Connolly when he played here. When he was wing forward he was the best wing forward in the country. An all star wing forward. His performance v Tyrone in 96 in an All Ireland semi final is one of the greatest individual performances by Meath man in a big match ever. Mick O Connell called this performance by GG, the best football individual performance of the 90s.
Then in 99 . Boylan decided to put him full forward. And make him a target man. This was totally against every instinct in Geragthy bones as a footballer. Geragthy was a great athlete. But he was player very good at running forward , attaching with pace. Going forward. Putting him with his back to the goals was going against Geraghtys best natural instincts.
And in the first few games in the league he was bit lost in the position. But by the end of the year he was the best full forward in Ireland and Meath were All Ireland champions. An star full forward. And for the next few years the best target man in the country. The best full forward in Ireland. And with Ollie Murphy and himself in the forward line they were unmarkable and Meath couldn't be beating when both Meath were on the field together between 96 and 01.
97 game v Offaly - Gerathy was suspended. Meath lose
98 game v Kildare - Murphy a sub. Meath lose
2000 game v Offaly - Gerathy injured. Meath lose.
2001 game v Galway - Murphy goes off with broken hand after stamping incident. Meath lose.
All the above are the loses Meath suffered in those 5 years.When those two men played, Meath were unbeatable. Meath have never had strong panels.
I think of the goal he set up for Murphy in 01 v Westmeath in q final. Meath were 9 points down at one stage. Dying moment of the game. Geraghty wins the ball surrounded by 5 or 6 Westmeath players. He punches the ball over a Westmeath player and catchs it himself and runs towards the sideline bringing 4 or 5 defenders with. I remeber thinking to myself at the time what the hell he was doing running away from the goals. He was dragging the Westmeath apart. Lobbed the ball into Ollie. Goal . A draw. Genius .
In 2002 versus Louth in Navan in the qualifiers.Louth were outstanding that day. Meath team of the 90s was finished, running on empty. Anyway going into injury time . Meath were 4 points down. Keily got a wonder goal in the second minute of injury time.
But Meath were still losing by 1 point. Geraghty got the ball in the dying seconds of the game went past two louth defenders . And was close to goals. Most very good players wouldnt have scored. A top class player would have went for the point to equalise the match and secure the draw for Meath. But for a genius like Geraghty, a point was not enough. Geragthy scored a magic goal . Meath won. Geragthy hopped on helicopter straight after the match to be best man that evening at a wedding. Genius .
Check our his goal v Tyrone in 07 q final on you tube. When he flicked the ball with his hands over the Tyrone goalies head. Pure genius.
He also was a very good soccer player and played a very high level of rugby. Connolly is talented but he ain't no Graham Gerathy that's for sure.
Connolly = talent. Geragthy = genius .
If he came from Dublin or Kerry he would have been more appreciated. Same as Matt Connor another proper genius. Midland geniuses or not as hyped up as whoever is the current capital darling of hill 16 .0 -
I wouldn't say so.
Connolly is a number 12. Right half forward. Geraghty was a number 12 right half forward.
Connolly is the most talented footballer in Ireland at the moment. And one of Dublins most talented players ever. Gerathy is Meaths most talented footballer ever. And one of the talented players of the last 25 years.
So it not like I'm comparing Sean Doherty or Mick Lyons to Bernard Brogan.
Connolly has pace vision and can score. Geraghty had pace vision and can score. Quite similar players, the style of play was similar.
They were also similar temperament wise. Both could lose the head easily.
The difference Geraghty was better all round footballer, a greater footballer. If Paudi O Se was a forward and had great forward skills. If he had silky forward skills , he would have been Graham Geraghty. Paudi O Se was a fearless player. So was GG. I saw Geraghty many a time surrounded by 3 or 4 players and he would beat them all for the ball and take every single one of them all on his own. Geragthy was one of the most fearless forwards I ever saw play.
Geragthy first was a wing back..Similar type of player to Lee Keegan.When he was wing back he was the best wing back in Ireland. He was man of the match in 94 leinster final. Alex Ferguson was at the match and was raving about Geraghty afterwards. All star wing back.
Then he moved to wing forward in 96. Similar type of player to Connolly when he played here. When he was wing forward he was the best wing forward in the country. An all star wing forward. His performance v Tyrone in 96 is one of the greatest individual performances by Meath man in a big match ever. Mick O Connell called this performance by GG, the best football individual performance of the 90s.
Then in 99 . Boylan decided to put him full forward. And make him a target man. This was totally against every instinct in Geragthy bones as a footballer. Geragthy was a great athlete. But he was player very good at running forward , attaching with pace. Going forward. Putting him with his back to the goals was going against his best natural instincts. It would be like placing Lee keegan full forward.
And in the first few games in the league he was bit lost in the position. But by the end of the year he was the best full forward in Ireland and Meath were All Ireland champions. An star full forward. And for the next few years the best target man in the country. And with Ollie Murphy and himself in the forward line they were unmarkable and Meath couldn't be beating when both Meath were on the field together between 96 and 01.
97 game v Offaly - Gerathy was suspended. Meath lose
98 game v Kildare - Murphy a sub. Meath lose
2000 game v Offaly - Gerathy injured. Meath lose.
2001 game v Galway - Murphy goes off with broken hand after stamping incident. Meath lose.
All the above are the loses Meath suffered in those 5 years.When those two men played, Meath were unbeatable. Meath have never had strong panels.
I think of the goal he set up for Murphy in 01 v Westmeath in q final. Meath were 9 points down at one stage. Dying moment of the game. Geraghty wins the ball surrounded by 5 or 6 Westmeath players. He punches the ball over a Westmeath player and catchs it himself and runs towards the sideline bringing 4 or 5 defenders with. I remeber thinking to myself at the time what the hell he was doing running away from the goals. He was dragging the Westmeath apart. Lobbed the ball into Ollie. Goal . A draw. Genius .
In 2002 versus Louth in Navan..Louth were outstanding day. Meath team of the 90s was finished, running on empty. Anyway going into injury time . Meath were 4 points down. Keily got a wonder goal in the second minute of injury time.
Geraghty got the ball in the dying seconds of the game went past two Westmeath defenders . And was close to goals. Most very good players wouldnt have scored. A top class player would have went for the point for the draw. But for a genius like Geraghty, a point was not enough. Geragthy scored a magic goal . Meath won. Geragthy hopped on helicopter straight after the match to be best man that evening at a wedding. Genius .
Check our his goal v Tyrone in 07 q final on you tube. When he flicked the ball with his hands over the Tyrone goalies head. Pure genius.
He also was a very good soccer player and played a very high level of rugby. Connolly is talented but he ain't no Graham Gerathy that's for sure.
Connolly = talent. Geragthy = genius .
If he came from Dublin or Kerry he would have been more appreciated. Same as Matt Connor another proper genius. Midland geniuses or not as hyped up as whoever is the current capital darling of hill 16 .
Connolly is an outstanding hurler and would almost certainly be a star hurler if he wasn't a great footballer and decided to choose football over hurling.
Connolly is a genius, he's just not as appreciated as he should be because he's also a bit of a **** at times.0 -
I'm not saying Connolly is not a good player. He is the most talented footballer in Ireland in the last few years. Probaly the best footballer in Ireland in the last few years. Him and Lee keegan. He just ain't no Graham Geragthy. If he wins an All Star at wing back , wing forward and full forward. And Wenger calls him for trials for Arsenal this winter. And he plays for lets say Clontarf in the Irish rugby league . And be considered to be picked to play for leinster rugby team. ( These are all things Geraghty did). If Connolly does the same. He's worthy to be considered as great as Geraghty.
You see When Geraghty was wing back he was as good as a wing back as Lee keegan. When he was wing forward he was the best wing forward in Ireland . Same for full forward.
Again Connolly is a special talent. Great player and I enjoy watching him play immensely . And I do think he is targeted by other teams. But all great players always are. And Connolly is the real thing. I would love to have a Meath player at the moment as good as Connolly now. But I would love more to have a player as good as Geraghty now playing for Meath. But will Meath ever produce a player as good as Geraghty again.0 -
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Sonny678 wrote:Connolly is a number 12. Right half forward. Geraghty was a number 12 right half forward. Connolly is the most talented footballer in Ireland at the moment. And one of Dublins most talented players ever. Gerathy is Meaths most talented footballer ever. And one of the most talented footballers of the last 25 years.
You are making too much of Geraghty here Sonny imo
He went over to United and was home fairly quickly. It wasn't even a regular trial, I remember it well. Ferguson said he might give him a look at centre back, he did and nothing came of it.
He was not outstanding in the compromised rules and was sent home for racially abusing the equivalent of a minor footballer, who got the better of him as I remember reading at the time.
Against any level of form his old manager Boylan selected him for another tour years later and he had a rough time and was fairly humiliated from what I can remember, wasn't he carried off the pitch after a barney he played his part in starting.
He should have never been brought by Boylan, who used his position as selector unfairly IMO to give his old player an opportunity to clear his name, he wasn't even playing well at the time. It was embarrassing. We even quit the series as a result of a charge led by Boylan, we we're called bad losers and soft and some of it was deserved.
The thing he has most in common with Connelly is that with probable good reason he's was not widely liked outside of his county. He could very well be better than Connelly though, it's the elevation of him to one of the best and a great all-rounder I have an issue with.
There have been a significant number of better players than him over the past 25 years imo.
Kerry would have at least 10 better than him, Tyrone had a good few aswell I think, Kildare, Meath, Donegal, Dublin to name a few all had all had better than him IMO, but look you hold him in high regard and each to their own we won't fall out over it.
He played in a very good team he has a couple of AIs.
Again Kevin Moran has two AIs and ten years at Manchester United (5 more years after that) and played in European and World Cups. He had everything Geraghty had and more IMO and he fit a business degree in before he left for the uk
Teddy McCarthy had 2 AIs in Hurling and Football
Mick Galway has an AI for Kerry and over 10 years playing Rugby for Ireland.
When it comes to both the best footballers in Ireland and dual stars Geraghty is division 2 imo.
I did like his style of play, there was a dangerous feeling when he was on the ball.
Jack McCaffery is a far better Dublin comparison IMO.0 -
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I disagree 110% with you. If Meath were playing in the morning and my life depended on the outcome of the game. The first name on the teamsheet for me would be Geraghty.
Anyway It seems to me your talking about Geraghtys end of his career. When he was past his best . You seem to have completely ignored the part of his career when he was the best wing back in Ireland 94 -95, the best wing forward in Ireland 96-98 and the best full forward in Ireland 99-01.
Graham Gerathy played for Meath for 16 years (1994-2011). He was a wing back 94-95. A wing foward 96-98 . And Full forward 99-2011.
He was wasted sometimes in full forward line. His best position was wing forward. But Meath needed him in the full forward line. Coz he was such a quality full forward and had a great understanding with Murphy.
You are just focusing on the end of his career. You completely ignored man of the match performances in leinster finals v Dublin at the age of 20. Or man of the match performances v Tyrone 1996 Cork 1999 and Kerry 2001 in All Ireland finals and semi finals. And when he played for the international rules between 96 and 01 under O Rourke he played some great performances. You r leaving all the good out and just focusing on the bad. Focusing on the part of his career when he was past his best. That is unfair. Remeber 16 years is a long long football career.
I saw Meath in every game between 96 and 01. And ask Meath person and they will tell you how good he was . Colm O Rourke had a nickname for him . It was " Rolls Royce". Because according to O Rourke, "Geraghty was the rolls Royce of gaelic footballers".
I remeber his performance v Cork in 99 All Ireland. Meath were the best team for all the match. Cork got a wonder goal well into second half and made a comeback of sorts. The game was in the balance. Who stood up and the won the All Ireland for Meath. Gerathy . He hit the winning scores. And one point I will never forget. He was 40 metres out . Sean Og Halpin was right behind him . And Geraghty kicked the ball over the bar with his back to goals without looking and his back fully to goals when he was kicking. Genius. That score won Meath the All Ireland. He was also captain that year.
You left out 2001 semi final v Kerry. When Meath played the reigning All Ireland champions in an All Ireland semi final and defeated Kerry by 15 points. In Kerrys worst defeat ever in the championship. Ollie Murphy and Graham Gerathy destroyed a Kerry back line that day of Seamus Moyihan Tom Sullivan and Tomas O Se. Some of the points Ollie and Gerathy scored that day are the best points ever scored by Meath men in Croke Park. Only Bernard Flynn points in the 88 league final v Dublin or Flynn 6 points v Down in 91 final were better in my view.
And of course you left out the performances of the year in 1996 All Ireland semi final when he destroyed Tyrone almost singlehandedly with 1 -3 from play. His goal was the goal of the year. And one of the best worked goals Meath ever scored in Croke Park. I would only put Foley 91 goal and Liam Hayes screamer v Dublin in 88 league final ahead of it.
The man won All stars at wing back, wing forward and full forward. A feat no other player has ever done. He must have been some sort of a good footballer. If he was the best wing back in 94 95. The best wing forward in 96 to 98 and best full forward in Ireland 99 to 2001.
Gerathy is the most talented Meath player ever . But I did not the say he was greatest. Theres a difference. Meaths top 5 greatest players would be between Paddy O Brien Peter McDermont Jack Quinn Colm.O Rourke and Trevor Giles.
The same way Connolly could be Dublins most talented player ever. But Kevin Heffernan is probaly Dublin greatest player ever. Better then Connolly. B Brogan is a greater player then Connolly. But Connolly is more talented.
I'm not saying Gerathy is the greatest player of the last 30 years. I would have Giles Donnellan Fay Joyce Cavanan Cooper Fitzgerald B Brogan ahead of him. The same way I would have all the above ahead of Connolly.
I'm just saying he was incredibly talented versatile player. And the most gifted naturally talented footballer Meath have ever produced. A fearless warrior.0 -
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Sonny678 wrote:I disagree 110% with you. If Meath were playing in the morning and my life depended on the outcome of the game. The first name on the teamsheet for me would be Geraghty. I have to say Stoner I think your dislike for Meath is judging your impartiality.
I've displayed little dislike of Meath.
I don't think Geraghty was the best Meath footballer ever never mind an all time great.
My last post was all about Geraghty, if you said I didn't like him you might have a point. There is the player and there's his other actions feeding that I won't go into it any further.
I've said more than once that Meath have had great teams and players. I've defended your position on it many times
I think you've massively inflated Geraghty's reputation as an all time great and as a great all rounder.
Lyons, Stafford , McEntee, O'Rourke were all better imo.
Let's not get mixed up in tribalism on this on Sonny. You like him fair enough but I don't agree with you on this point
But your best team was stuck in-between two Kerry teams that were superior to it imo. Yet you seem to have it in your head that about 6 or 7 of the Meath team that win 2 AIs are the best players or complete lines in the history of the game. That's simply not possible imo.
When people were taking about how good Tyrone were recently I offered that I thought the 1988 and up Meath team were better than them I still think that.
However I think that Peter Canavan was better than any Meath (or Dublin) player that I ever remember playing. He was twice the player Geraghty was imo
You've shown huge bias towards your own county, I don't see it as a bad thing, there's nothing negative about your enthusiasm for your county, I just don't agree with you on this one, but it's not down to dislike of Meath on my part.
I don't like every Dublin player either you should have picked that up from my posts.
Again I can't see how anyone can answer your post anyway we've all only see a few of these teams anyway.
I'm turning in now. Take care. Thanks again for the informative posts.0 -
"Would Klitscko at his peak have beaten Ali at his peak? Yes, probably. Resources."
This, amid stiff competition, is by far the most nonsensical statement I have read on this thread.
And who the f*ck is 'Kristinov'?0 -
"Would Klitscko at his peak have beaten Ali at his peak? Yes, probably. Resources."
This, amid stiff competition, is by far the most nonsensical statement I have read on this thread.
And who the f*ck is 'Kristinov'?
It's a misspelling of 'Klitschko' I imagine (as is Klitscko' as it happens) but then again you knew that didn't you?0 -
1) I remember geraghty heading over to the UK, he didn't make it Sonny, wasn't good enough. Otherwise he would stayed IMO.
2) Brian O'Driscoll would burst Mcgeaney on a Rugby pitch IMO, otherwise we'd have load of lads transferring not just M Galway
3)Lee Keegan played a stormer the last day and he looked pretty flabby walking around afterwards, would you see that in the premiere league or the Irish rugby team.
1) What has that got to do with his Gaelic Football ability? You've taken what was essentially an anecdotal aside (rather than an on-topic opinion) and written a long post on that point only. It is worth mentioning that Paul Merson was an alcoholic in full spate in those days, and not the only one in that dressing-room either. Arsene Wenger was shocked at the physical condition and eating habits of the players when he came to that club a few years later, so I would not be as dismissive as you of the possibility that Geraghty compared quite favourably with those model professionals. As for your comment about Geraghty fighting against Australians.........seriously.........did someone suggest he was Lennox Lewis or something? Someone's 'fighting ability' surely stops being relevant after about 15 years old, no?
2) He would "burst" him? What exactly does that mean? He would physically beat him up? Unlikely I'd say - does O'Driscoll have some kind of combat training? And if so what has that got to do with anything. If you are telling us that O'Driscoll is a better rugby player than McGeeney we'd have worked that one out I think. There was no claim that I saw which suggested anything about McGeeney's rugby ability.
3) You are just trying too hard now. In all fairness whatever your predisposition towards GAA players I think you should accept that Lee Keegan is probably quite physically fit. Suggesting otherwise is just plain silly.0 -
On Geraghty, surely if heading over to the UK for a soccer trial and playing for an AIL rugby team is such a huge indicator of greatness, then Niall Quinn must be the greatest hurler of all time.0
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I never said playing for AOL rugby was a sign of greatness. Where did I say that. Nowhere.
I said been a counties greatest underage player ever and been the star player on minor and under 21 All Ireland winning teams ( Meaths only Under 21 title). Winning All stars at wing back, wing forward and full forward. Captaining his county to an All Ireland victory . And scoring the winning points in an All Ireland final. And man of the match performance at the age of 20 v the Dubs in a leinster final. And man of the match performances in All Ireland semi finals and All Ireland finals . And scoring some of the best goals ever scored by his county in the championship. And his man of the match performance v Kerry in 2001 (in an All Ireland semi final his performance along with Ollie Murphy led to Kerrys worst defeat in 135 years ,15 point hammering). And yes he is not the greatest player his county ever produced ( because he isnt O Brien, Quinn , Peter McDermont, O Rourke and Giles are greater players then GG). But being seen as the most naturally talented player his county has ever produced.
All the above are signs of greatness you have ignored. The soccer trail and AIL league rugby were just to show how versatile and how Atletic he was. But been a top class wing back and top class wing forward and top class full forward are the real reasons.
You see players like Matt Connor( Offaly), Tony McTeague( Offaly) Martin Furlong( Offaly) , Willie Bryan( Offaly) Dessie Dolan (Westmeath),Tommy "The Boy Wonder" Murphy (Laois) , Glen Ryan (Kildare ), Larry Stanley( Kildare), Trevor Giles (Meath) Martin O Connell( Meath) and Darren Fay( Meath) never get the credit they deserve. Midland great players aren't as cool as Dublin great players.
But if Geragthy was from Dublin or kerry he would be more highly rated.
I can say Connolly is the most talented player of his generation. And one of Dublin most talented players ever. Talent should always be praised . I just think Geraghty was a better all round footballer.0 -
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/comment-best-of-their-era-but-dubs-would-not-have-dominated-in-the-noughties-36162011.html
Best of their era but Dubs would not have dominated in the noughties
The second greatest Gaelic football team of all time and, whisper it, maybe even the greatest? The narrative now is that only the Kerry corps of 1975-'86 stands between this Dublin squad and the number one ranking in the history of the game.
We owe it to the self-same history to insist on a little more care and consideration. The reputation and achievements of other teams deserve it.
The past is always in danger of being erased, especially in sport, where the addiction for new drama needs constant feeding. But there are really no excuses for such amnesia in this particular conversation because we only have to go back a decade to find not one but two teams who'd have beaten the current champions.
Last Sunday the Dubs nailed the three-in-a-row, and their fifth All-Ireland title in seven seasons. These stats alone are incontrovertible proof of their greatness. This debate is already over. They are a truly great team. But the greatest, or second greatest? Steady on there.
Let us transplant them back a decade and put them in against the Tyrone and Kerry teams of the 2000s. Would the Dubs have beaten them? Definitely. Would they be winning five in seven? Definitely not.
How quickly we forget. The Tyrone and Kerry teams of that decade delivered some of the most brilliant football we have ever seen. They were involved, together and separately, in some of the most sensational games ever played. They were stacked with Hall of Fame players and, in several cases, players who belong in the VIP suite of the Hall of Fame.
The Tyrone team of that era had one of the greatest forward lines ever assembled. Do we even need to name them? It seems that we do: Canavan, McGuigan, Mulligan, Dooher, Cavanagh and O'Neill. Kerry? Littered with all-time greats: Ó Sé T, Ó Sé M, Ó Sé D; Moynihan; Cooper; Donaghy; Declan O'Sullivan. Throw in the stellar supporting casts: McMenamin, Jordan, Gormley; Galvin, Tom O'Sullivan, Mike McCarthy among them.
On top of all that luxuriant talent and athletic power, both teams were pure championship animals. When the hammer came down they were ready for road. Watching those teams in that decade left one with a prevailing sense that they were creating their own epoch, that this was a special time in the game's evolution.
But last week, in the stampede to acclaim the most recent history-makers, it was like it had never happened. It felt as if that previous historic decade had been disappeared in a puff of smoke. Not for the first time, it left one wondering what is the point of it all, if it all can be forgotten so quickly.
So, summon to mind a few of those games from that period. Tyrone v Armagh three times in '05, Tyrone v Kerry in '05, Kerry v Dublin '07, Tyrone v Kerry '08, Kerry v Dublin '09. Kerry's demolition jobs on Mayo in '04 and '06 were fearsome demonstrations of their ambition and class.
It is difficult therefore to be persuaded that either Tyrone or Kerry at the peak of their powers would not have taken down this current all-conquering Dublin team, at least one time each - and maybe more. And of course there was the seminal All-Ireland semi-final of '03 that launched their mutual fight for supremacy over the rest of the decade.
Dublin have not had to face an internecine battle of this intensity. Yes, they have had a great rivalry with Mayo - but Mayo have not necessarily been great rivals. They do not have the attacking class, the finishing power that actually would have finished Dublin at least once in their epic encounters over the last five seasons. Tyrone had it, Kerry had it, Mayo don't. Another caveat: Dublin's dominance is taking place in a trough period. There is a slump in the provinces. This is a post-Ulster and post-Leinster landscape. Donegal's stunning coup over the Dubs in 2014 was the last hurrah for Ulster, at least temporarily. Leinster is feeble, with Meath marooned in the doldrums for years and Kildare, as ever, not to be trusted. Kerry's triumph in '14 masked the decline that was probably inevitable after the golden generation of the noughties, for all their brilliant efforts to improvise and compensate.
Kerry threw the kitchen sink at them in 2011 and 2013 and it was here that these Dublin players made their bones. They did not have the enormous reservoirs of pure confidence that they can call on now. But they withstood stomach-churning crises on both occasions.
It is impossible to quantify, but this Dublin team is perhaps mentally the strongest outfit ever to take the field. Mayo were chipping manfully at a granite wall last Sunday. The champions are superbly coached on the field, and equally well managed off it; it can only be so, given their implacable resistance to cracking under pressure.
They have broken new ground too in the sheer level of quality they can deploy from the bench. The Kerry and Tyrone sides of the noughties would not compare on this count. Substitutes traditionally were pale imitations of the players they were replacing. Dublin's aren't so much substitutes as executioners. This kind of artillery is unprecedented.
But in my opinion they'd have needed every ounce of it to survive unscathed against the two superpowers back then. On some days it would have been enough - on others, it wouldn't.0 -
Can't remember people downplaying the Tyrone and Kerry teams of that time in comparison with Kerry or Dublin in 70s and 80s!
When Galway won three-in-a-row did anyone say "Oh, they'd never have beaten Cavan in the 40s." Or Cody's team never beaten Tipp in 60s?
Actually there probably was some curmudgeonly oul loser mumbling that over his pint :-)0 -
I never said playing for AOL rugby was a sign of greatness. Where did I say that. Nowhere.
.
Here:Connolly is a poor man's Graham Geraghty. Until Connolly wins an All star at wing back, wing forward and full forward. Gets trials with Arsenal. And plays rugby in the Irish league with Bucanneers. And is the best player in international rules series. ( Geraghty did all the above). Then and only then should Connolly be in the same league as Graham Geraghty.
PS
(When Geraghty went over to Arsenal for a trail. Paul Merson said Geraghty was the fittest athlete he ever saw. When Brian O Driscoll saw Kieran McGeeney in the gym he was shocked at the level of fitness of geezer and mistakenly thought he was a New Zealand rugby player.) While Jerry Kieran think today's GAA players are unfit. It's all a matter of opinion, I suspose.
You included playing in the AIL as one of the distinguishing criteria that set Geraghty above Connolly.0 -
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Can't remember people downplaying the Tyrone and Kerry teams of that time in comparison with Kerry or Dublin in 70s and 80s!
When Galway won three-in-a-row did anyone say "Oh, they'd never have beaten Cavan in the 40s." Or Cody's team never beaten Tipp in 60s?
Actually there probably was some curmudgeonly oul loser mumbling that over his pint :-)
https://extra.ie/sport/gaa/split-dublin-no-cork-instead
This is a very interesting take on it, that examines playing population rather than population per se.
"When it comes to the numbers game, the actual ‘playing population’ is a far more relevant statistic than simply quoting a county’s population, especially when you look at the number of adult football teams registered in 2016.
(1) Cork – 263 (adult football teams registered), (2) Dublin – 168, (3) Kerry – 121, (4) Meath – 110, (5) Galway – 108, (6) Tyrone – 105, (7) Kildare – 90, (8) Mayo – 84."
So Dublin are twice Mayo's size in terms of adult football teams, but the real underperformers are firstly Cork, and then Meath.0 -
I feel Dublin may become in a number of years the most decorated football teams seeing that their closest opposition truly are cursed you saw what happened to Tyrone and Kerry need more time but if you compare the Dublin "team" it's composed of multiple teams , in the whole first 15 plays the latter stages of the championship .Kerry's four in a row team and other great teams had effectively 20 regulars that was it and on the competition argument in Leinster being farcical isn't the only problem the backdoor system means that weaker opposition like Monaghan can play them again making the road to Sam for good teams today even easier .0
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Irellevant wrote: »I feel Dublin may become in a number of years the most decorated football teams seeing that their closest opposition truly are cursed you saw what happened to Tyrone and Kerry need more time but if you compare the Dublin "team" it's composed of multiple teams , in the whole first 15 plays the latter stages of the championship .Kerry's four in a row team and other great teams had effectively 20 regulars that was it and on the competition argument in Leinster being farcical isn't the only problem the backdoor system means that weaker opposition like Monaghan can play them again making the road to Sam for good teams today even easier .
Yes becasue only Dublin can play weaker counties through the back door :rolleyes::rolleyes: before they just wouldnt have played the extra game, if anything its tougher
Tyrone, Kerry and Mayo will all be massive competition next year0 -
The Cork womens team won 6 in a row.
What grounds does any other team have to say they are better?0 -
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blanch152 wrote:You included playing in the AIL as one of the distinguishing criteria that set Geraghty above Connolly.
Will you stop nitpicking what I'm saying . I give 10 or 15 reasons to say why GG was a great talent eg being a top class wing back, wing forward and full forward. I cannot think of any player in the last 50 years who excelled in all these positions in provincial finals and All Ireland finals and semi finals. Kerrys Ger Power was a top class wing back and wing forward. But GG moving from outfield to full forward. And turning his back to goals for a player whose great strenght was attacking with power and pace coming onto the ball. Displayed his versatility.
Geraghty was not best wing forward I ever . The three best I ever saw were in this order 1 Pat Spillane 2 Michael Donnellan 3 Paul Flynn 4 Brian Dooher.
All could have been brillant wing backs. With the exception of Pat Spillane . I don't know the above all time great wing forwards would have been effective at full forward and win All Irelands in each of these positions . Maybe they would have. We will never know. But we can say about Spillane, Donnellan, Flynn and Dooher was they were all the best wings forwards ever. And all better in Gerathy in the wing forward position.
But for Geraghty to go from wing back to wing forward to full forward. And excell in each position and become the best in the country in each position . ( Positions which have different traits.). Is sign of his talent. And is pretty unique. I cannot think of any other player doing this.
And it shows you how I much rate Diarmaid Connolly ( the most talented footballer of his generation) when he minds me so much of Geraghty.0 -
Bonniedog wrote:When Galway won three-in-a-row did anyone say "Oh, they'd never have beaten Cavan in the 40s." Or Cody's team never beaten Tipp in 60s?Bonniedog wrote:Can't remember people downplaying the Tyrone and Kerry teams of that time in comparison with Kerry or Dublin in 70s and 80s!Bonniedog wrote:Actually there probably was some curmudgeonly oul loser mumbling that over his pint :-)
There was a great debate in the 60s agmost GAA supporters who was the greatest team; Galways 64 65 66 or Down 60 61 68.
Both teams never met. And still today agmost supporters of that generation they still talk about who was the best.
I would rate Down a little higher . But my granddad who saw all these games in 60s always maintained Galway were the classiest and best team he ever saw. Even better then kerry 75 to 86.
In Tipp they maintain the Tipp of the 60s which won 4 All Irelands was a greater team then Cody's 00s team. They will tell u Tipp John Doyle was greater then Jackie Tryell and Jimmy Doyle was greater then King Henry. This Tipp team nearly won a 5 in a row also.
Every team that is a great team ( which this Dublin team are ) are always compared to past teams. It happens in every sports. Eg Who was the best boxer Ali or Joe Lewis , who the best soccer player Pele , Maradona or Messi. Who was the better team Brazil 1970s or Spain 00s. Who was the better team Liverpool 70s and 80s or Man Utd 90s and 00s. Comparison between teams from different eras has being going on since organised sport took off in the late 19th century .
So should Dublin not be compared. There had been very little criticism of this Dublin team over the last few years. They have been lauded in the media . And deservedly so. But they are not above criticism. But seem if they get any criticism it's almost illegal. For Jim Galvin to say that media where treating Dublin badly after Connolly affair was a bit like the leader of North Korea saying the North Korean media are giving him a hard time. ( The last comment was said tongue in cheek.) But it does seem the Dubs are very touchy with any criticism. Any many pundits and ex players seem reluctant to criticise.
When you see the bile that was thrown at great teams in the past
eg Galway hurlers 80s ( possession game destroyed hurling ) Meath 80s and 90s ( liveline calls, disgraceful RTE guide article and President criticisms , Mayo stealing narrative after 96 " we were robbed"and more against Meaths so called rough tactics), Clare 95 97 ( to physical) , Tyrone ( puke football ) , Donegal ( McGuiness destroying football with ultra defence tactics ) and the the latest one Waterfors hurlers ( the sweeper system destroying).
When u see the criticism undeservedly thrown at all the above teams. Dublin get of lightly. Dublin get huge praise. And they do deserve been one of the greatest teams. But no person team or institution is above criticism.
When Tipp Kilkenny or Cork win in hurling or Dublin. Or Kerry or Cork win in football everything is rosey in GAA land.
But if any team wins liam or Sam outside the above they are heavily and undeservedly criticised. It seems people can accept the above as champions while they question any team outside the big 3 or 4. Look at soccer which team was despised in the most in the last 50 years eg Leeds team 70s. Because they were outside the usual Man Utd Liverpool and Arsenal teams . And supporters and media accepts defeats to big main teams then anyone outside the established superpowers.0 -
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It's incredible that Down never played Galway in that era. I assume they met in the league though?0
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