Shotgun seized

Dai John

Local Gardai took away a man's shotgun after he fell out with a neighbour. The neighbour claimed she was in fear, although no threats made or mention of a shotgun were made, this is pending an investigation. He got a letter to say he could appeal but would have to lodge 750 euro .Knowing the young man,(who has never been in trouble )I thought this very harsh. He has been deprived of his hobby and confidence on the hearsay of a person without being put on trial or found guilty of any offence. I would view this as a dangerous situation for any gun licence holder who could be held to ransom by a vindictive person. My question is; has anyone any experience of a similar situation? This goes back to July, so there is no sense of urgency regarding the investigation.

Cass

Dai John wrote: »

My question is; has anyone any experience of a similar situation?.

To what end, if you don't mind me asking?

Are you looking for causes and end results to compare to this situation? Or are you just looking for a "what usually happens" scenarios?

gunny123

I heard of a simular situation with a married couple forever having screaming matches, when he rolled in from the pub three sheets to the wind. The gardai were being called regularly and one evening the sarge decided to take the guys shotgun. I don't know what legal right they had to do that, if any.

Sparks

This was also almost the exact situation that preceded the Abbylara shooting.

German pointer

The gardai were being called regularly and one evening the sarge decided to take the guys shotgun. I don't know what legal right they had to do that, if any.[/quote]

Could this one be put down to intemperate behavior?

Sparks

The gardai were being called regularly and one evening the sarge decided to take the guys shotgun. I don't know what legal right they had to do that, if any.

The only legal route available to do that is either a section five revoking of the licence, which you have to give written notification of; or a temporary custody order (but that applies to an area, not a person). There are other powers (like section 16 of the 1990 act) but they apply to public places or to premises of RFDs or the like, not to someone's home.

So for a sergeant to just show up at the door and say "sorry lad, but we had a complaint so I'm taking this in for safety's sake", well, you can go along with it, it's a free country; but there isn't any legal basis for it without something more than that behind it (for a start, it would have to come from a super, not a sarge, and there's going to be paperwork, not a quiet chat at the door).

Now there's a whole other conversation about the specifics of the case, how refusing to comply would look in any future court case about the inter-neighbour dispute or future licence applications and so on.

And there's an entirely different conversation about whether or not the concern is genuine - and let's be bloodymindedly clear here: the statistics on violence towards women in Ireland are absolutely heinous. We don't know who the complainant is or who the firearms owner is or what the history there is and it's entirely likely that neither did the Garda involved and when you don't know and only know the statistics, you'd lean towards confiscation.

It's just that I don't think confiscation in the exact manner described (or in the manner that we know it was done in Abbylara) is legal. The section five powers are so absolute and so easy to invoke that there really is no excuse for not doing it that way if the Garda felt it was a justifiable act.

Grizzly 45

From my PI days, I had three cases of this carry on happening.ALL were bloody-minded, vindictive, soon to be ex-spouses [who were going to cash in in proceedings anyway]
All followed the same routine."Husband making threats to me and the kids that he will kill us all if we leave him, etc, etc." In one case[before 2008] one guy couldn't even find his guns as was storing them out in the garage and hadn't even touched them in five when the Guards showed up.Yet the spouse claimed he had been threatening them with them two days before.

One guy followed my advice and moved them SAP into a dealer until his separation proceedings were underway.Which is the best thing to do if you ever find yourself in a situation like this.NEVER underestimate how nasty and bitchy a person you are hitched to can turn when it is all over.

Demand off the gaurds exactly why and under what section they are removing your firearms and demand receipts and who is the complainant.Do not be afraid to video and record any proceedings with your cam these days.After all, if the Gaurds are in the right , what have they got to fear?

Going back to the OP..Who said he had to lodge 750 euros?If it is the AGS..BULL SHT!! There is no charge for an appeal on a license.Nor is this an appeal either.Unless he gets written confirmation of a revocation of his license,he has every right to go back down to the Garda station and demand his property back with a lawyer in tow. This is almost preemption of a potential crime, which is suggesting that this young fellah "might be guilty of doing something."Which ASFIK is illegal under our and EU law.Why not confiscate our cars on Saturday night, because "we might get drunk and kill someone under DUI?"
Makey up law and exceeding authorithy again...

Sparks

From my PI days, I had three cases of this carry on happening.ALL were bloody-minded, vindictive, soon to be ex-spouses

That's three data points in a population of 4.6 million people Grizzly.

I'm not trying to say this case is one or the other by the way.

I'm trying to say that if you don't know the people involved personally and you do know the statistics around violence, you could strongly empathise with the urge to take a preventative measure here even if it ultimately proved unfair. But that urge shouldn't override legality. It's not like it's in any way hard to act on legally; a Garda following section 5 would be pushing on an open door. So if that doesn't get done, there really isn't any excuse.

Also, 750 euros to be lodged to take a court case could well be the amount in the section 68 letter from the solicitor. In which case it's completely legal (whether the amount is reasonable I'm not entering an opinion on, just whether or not it's legal to ask for one).

Dai John

I do feel that not all the facts were divulged to me, as I only heard one side to the story, what concerns me most is that if this became a common occurrence it could leave the door wide open for abuse at the cost of the shooting community. All the woman had to claim was that she was put in fear without evidence or corroboration and the Gardai reacted by taking his shotgun pending the investigation. The investigation is over 2 months old. I was told that this is a normal procedure in the case of any offer of violence or threat. I have known the man since he was a child and he is not of a violent disposition. He never disclosed the fact that he owned a shotgun and did not consider it an issue in the dispute, but the Gardai obviously did. What next ? If you fail to pay a parking ticket, will it be considered anti-social and worthy of refusing you a gun licence ?

gunny123

German pointer wrote: »

Could this one be put down to intemperate behavior?

This was over 20 years ago when being three parts Oliver Twist on a regular basis was the national sport and nothing to be ashamed of.

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=Sparks;104688968]That's three data points in a population of 4.6 million people Grizzly.

Well actually when it comes to firearms ownership, it would be a different base figure,albeit just as small a number??
Very true, but my point being, is how many others out there that we might never have heard of either?and I was simply illustrating the point that not all of these cases are battered and blue abused women, but some very nasty conniving spurned or money hungry women.Hell hath no fury and all that...

I'm trying to say that if you don't know the people involved personally and you do know the statistics around violence, you could strongly empathize with the urge to take a preventative measure here even if it ultimately proved unfair. But that urge shouldn't override legality. It's not like it's in any way hard to act on legally; a Garda following section 5 would be pushing on an open door. So if that doesn't get done, there really isn't any excuse.

Except for one problem.It is not up to a Sgt to confiscate firearms without [a] good reason and written authorization from the granter.IE the superintendent or chief as the case may be to revoke? This and any of the cases I had were and sounds like, Gardai acting on the word of an aggrieved party in matrimonial disputes trying to remove the seemingly obvious "go to" weapon without any justification apart from hearsay of one of the aggrieved.

Why not remove then all knives from the house as well?after all most domestic murders are done with knives from the kitchen drawer in Ireland from and by both sexes.

Also, 750 euros to be lodged to take a court case could well be the amount in the section 68 letter from the solicitor. In which case it's completely legal (whether the amount is reasonable I'm not entering an opinion on, just whether or not it's legal to ask for one)

I wouldn't be using that solicitor with a price list for that letter for sure. in fact, that should be around 50 quid if at that.No this sounds more like a Garda doing soft intimidating a young fellah by saying "Go on, but it will cost ya, so don't bother." Not everybody can drop 750 quid these days either on lawyers fees.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Except for one problem.It is not up to a Sgt to confiscate firearms without [a] good reason and written authorization from the granter.IE the superintendent or chief as the case may be to revoke?

That's my point. If the gardai believe there's sufficient threat to take away the firearm then there is absolutely no excuse for not doing so legally. If a complaint has been made, then that's sufficient grounds to revoke a cert under section 5 immediately and confiscate the firearm legally.
After that point, if it's been done unfairly or without proper grounds, you can go to court and argue to a third party that the AGS made the wrong call; but it's all legal and official and above board. This informal crap leaves the licencee in limbo. Is the licence actually revoked or not? Where is the firearm? How do they get it back? When can they get it back? None of that is in any way answerable if the Gardai don't follow the law.

Gorgeousgeorge

Absolute madness. Its why i store everything in with my local rfd

Hunter456

one day i was heading into a permission i had from a farmer and another farmer came speeding up the road stopped and asked me what the **** was i doing this is xxxxxxxxx gun club my reply was i have permission from the landowner xxxxxx xxxxxx and i took out the permission letter, he got out of the jeep started hurling abuse at me i had my shotgun opened i was not in a threatening manner but i stood my ground and continued to explain my case you can not tell me i cant shoot in here there is the proof, his reacting was i'm going to the guards you threatened me with a gun soon as he left i got onto the phone and phoned the local guard told him what had happened i told him i had all relevant documents to state i had permission. i followed my query up the next day the man never lodge the complaint i never lost my guns but i was bricking it. how easy it is for people to accuse and get your guns confiscated.

a couple of months later i knocked into a house that had a river running along his land and i went to seek permission his wife answered the door i asked could i speak to the gentleman that own's the land who only came to the door the farmer from that day haha i got refused.

gizmo555

Sparks wrote: »

... let's be bloodymindedly clear here: the statistics on violence towards women in Ireland are absolutely heinous. We don't know who the complainant is or who the firearms owner is or what the history there is and it's entirely likely that neither did the Garda involved and when you don't know and only know the statistics, you'd lean towards confiscation.

Firstly, the statistics on violence towards men by their partners are pretty bad too as is recognised in the current TV and radio ad campaigns on domestic violence. There was an Irish report published in 2001 by the Marriage and Relationship Counselling Service (now renamed Relationships Ireland), which stated that:

In those who come for counselling to the MRCS, about half are in relationships in which domestic violence occurs. One-third of the violence is perpetrated by partners on each other; 41 per cent is perpetrated by women on men. A quarter (26 per cent) is perpetrated by men on women. "Women are more likely than men to be the perpetrators of domestic violence" among MRCS clients . . .

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/finding-that-women-can-be-the-violent-partner-will-startle-1.314729

Secondly, and I'm open to correction, but the only Irish case of a spouse being murdered by their partner with a legally held shotgun in recent times that I recall is that of Corporal Gary Cotter.

In January 1995 Gary and his wife Norma were out on the town drinking in Midleton. He went home earlier than her while she stayed out drinking for a further three hours. When she did get home, he objected to her vomiting in their bedroom and there was an argument about who'd collect their child from his grandparents' house in the morning.

Later, while he slept, Norma shot her husband dead with his shotgun because, as she told her father, "he kept nagging her".

Sparks

gizmo555 wrote: »

Firstly, the statistics on violence towards men by their partners are pretty bad too as is recognised in the current TV and radio ad campaigns on domestic violence.

Except that we're not talking about domestic violence here, unless the two neighbours are married.

And you guys are losing the thread of this a bit; my point isn't about who beats whom more (and if you want to have that argument, count me out and take it somewhere the kids can't hear please). It's that if the Garda had cause to be worried - and it is not implausible that he would have such cause - then legally he is supposed to get a section 5 revocation and proceed that way. A garda below the rank of Super just showing up and asking for the firearm to be handed over on his own recognisance is flat-out lazy and I can't think of a single legal basis for it from the firearms acts.

I'm not even sure if it's legal to comply with, now that I think about it. Your firearm is gone, you have no idea where it is or who has it, there's no great paperwork trail in the case tracking it, and you're supposed to keep that thing securely stored when not in use, so if the Garda misplaces it and it's later used in a post office robbery (which we know has happened in the past in a specific case), who's liable?

Gorgeousgeorge

I know of a man who point blank refused to give his firearms to the local guard after a complaint. He called our local rfd to which he asked them to hold the firearms until after the investigation was complete. They came out and picked them up. I believe he was well within his rights to do this. Anyone know if this is true

gizmo555

Sparks wrote: »

Except that we're not talking about domestic violence here, unless the two neighbours are married.

I wasn't commenting on the situation the OP described, I was commenting on the assertion by you that "the statistics on violence towards women in Ireland are absolutely heinous". If you weren't referring to statistics on domestic violence, what statistics were you referring to? And what such statistics would indicate there is the remotest threat to women from legally held firearms which do not belong to members of their own households?

This is not "losing the thread" - your premise seems to be that there are statistics which indicate that the Gardaí might well have good reason to take the firearm, but you're critical of the way its been done.

Dai John

Gorgeousgeorge wrote: »

I know of a man who point blank refused to give his firearms to the local guard after a complaint. He called our local rfd to which he asked them to hold the firearms until after the investigation was complete. They came out and picked them up. I believe he was well within his rights to do this. Anyone know if this is true

An RFD would be within his right to charge storage, who pays ?

Sparks

gizmo555 wrote: »

This is not "losing the thread" - your premise seems to be that there are statistics which indicate that the Gardaight well have good reason to take the firearm, but you're critical of the way its been done.

It isn't. It's that they can argue successfully they had a good motive. "Good Reason" is not the same thing. That would imply they had knowledge of this specific case.

As to the rest, like I said, leave me out of that chat and don't have it where the kids can hear you.

random jerk

Dai John wrote: »

Local Gardai took away a man's shotgun after he fell out with a neighbour. The neighbour claimed she was in fear, although no threats made or mention of a shotgun were made, this is pending an investigation. He got a letter to say he could appeal but would have to lodge 750 euro .Knowing the young man,(who has never been in trouble )I thought this very harsh. He has been deprived of his hobby and confidence on the hearsay of a person without being put on trial or found guilty of any offence. I would view this as a dangerous situation for any gun licence holder who could be held to ransom by a vindictive person. My question is; has anyone any experience of a similar situation? This goes back to July, so there is no sense of urgency regarding the investigation.

Cymraeg Dai?

Gorgeousgeorge

Dai John wrote: »

An RFD would be within his right to charge storage, who pays ?

He paid the rfd. Rfd also charged him for collecting them

gunhappy_ie

Gorgeousgeorge wrote: »

He paid the rfd. Rfd also charged him for collecting them

Far better than having a member of AGS who generally wont have a clue about firearms shove it into a press in the local station !

Who pays if AGS damage your gun ? :P

Gorgeousgeorge

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

Far better than having a member of AGS who generally wont have a clue about firearms shove it into a press in the local station !

Who pays if AGS damage your gun ? :P

Thats if yoi ever get it back

Sparks

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

Who pays if AGS damage your gun ? :P

Which is another reason to do things above board. If a member of AGS seizes your firearm without legal basis, you might have trouble sueing AGS directly for any damages that might occur to the firearm after that point. Whereas if it's done above board via a section five, then it's all legal and AGS (rather than an individual Garda) are responsible for safeguarding what remains private property (doesn't matter if you can't possess it because you have no licence, it remains your property even then, as anyone who lost a firearm in '72 can tell you).

gunny123

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

Far better than having a member of AGS who generally wont have a clue about firearms shove it into a press in the local station !

Who pays if AGS damage your gun ? :P

I have seen first hand how guns are stored in cards stations. Not pretty, they are shoved into an ordinary office furniture type press. But I know in South Dublin, the super ordered that no firearms were to be stored in stations, and anything confiscated or seized, was to be brought to a rfd.

howa .223

I had a similar situation happen to myself a few years back, when a member of the gaurds claimed he seen me shooting lands I have no permission on stating a time date etc even going as far as calling me on my own phone from a cop shop and threatening to punch me in the face.
I then got a phone call from my own station asking to surrender my guns, when I stated that for 1 I don't trespass and 2 I'm not Jesus and couldn't be in two places at the one time the super seemed surprised.
I had been working on a very high level security construction site with cctv and a personal id swipe card, and I was at work that day and time he "saw" me..
I wanted the said "guard' to pursue the issue but it soon got swept under the carpet. Unfortunately I didn't get to make an example of this clown in the media. just shows the low levels some individuals will go too.

Bogbrush

I can't post a link because I'm new, but this is a good read about spouses & firearms, if you can be bothered to Google for it:

7 Deadly Sins, how to lose your shotgun certificate.

How pride, envy, wrath, sloth, greed, gluttony or lust can lose you your shotgun certificate and firearms licence.

Grizzly 45

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/shot-gun-certificate/7-deadly-sins-how-to-lose-your-shotgun-certificate-16054

There you go!:)

Grizzly 45

Slightly OT, but related. If you use FB and Twitter, remember both antis and[thought] police are now very much patrolling these mediums to shut people down for "hate speech".This can be as much as liking a particularly off colour post or replying in a manner "offensive" in a very heated debate.
This has happened once in the UK already and I am following a case of this in Germany as well.
So just a heads up on this too.
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/protect-yourself-on-social-media-20367

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Slightly OT, but related. If you use FB and Twitter, remember both antis and[thought] police are now very much patrolling these mediums to shut people down for "hate speech".This can be as much as liking a particularly off colour post or replying in a manner "offensive" in a very heated debate.
This has happened once in the UK already and I am following a case of this in Germany as well.
So just a heads up on this too.
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/protect-yourself-on-social-media-20367

If you are stupid enough to put every last vestige of your life on to the web for all to see, on bookface or twatter, then you deserve all you get.