Shotgun seized

judestynes

Sparks wrote: »

Except that we're not talking about domestic violence here, unless the two neighbours are married.

And you guys are losing the thread of this a bit; my point isn't about who beats whom more (and if you want to have that argument, count me out and take it somewhere the kids can't hear please). It's that if the Garda had cause to be worried - and it is not implausible that he would have such cause - then legally he is supposed to get a section 5 revocation and proceed that way. A garda below the rank of Super just showing up and asking for the firearm to be handed over on his own recognisance is flat-out lazy and I can't think of a single legal basis for it from the firearms acts.

I'm not even sure if it's legal to comply with, now that I think about it. Your firearm is gone, you have no idea where it is or who has it, there's no great paperwork trail in the case tracking it, and you're supposed to keep that thing securely stored when not in use, so if the Garda misplaces it and it's later used in a post office robbery (which we know has happened in the past in a specific case), who's liable?

Reading through this thread bring back so many stories recanted to me at military shows I display at and instances the happened to myself.
Displaying at a show in Wells house Wexford a few years back and nice couple were talking to me about a brown bess I had on display, they had something like it except shorter with a sword thing on the end, it had been in her family for many years. What she described to me sounded very like a baker rifle, an original baker rifle with it's sword bayonet and a gard told them without a liscence it had to be turned in, I explained as it's an original antique muzzle loader they were exempt. I asked if that gard had seen€5000.00 just sitting on their mantle peice and told them to hand it over would they? Either this gard was unfamiliar with the legislation and decided to confiscate this piece or he knew exactly what he was looking at and gambled the couple weren't up on legilation and made off with a very nice and expensive piece of history. Either way that couple were gutted.

Sparks

I explained as it's an original antique muzzle loader they were exempt.

wellllllll.....

I mean, they ought to be. There is an exemption in the law for antiques. But like we've said here a lot over the years, there's no definition in the law for what an antique actually is in the law. The guidelines now have a mention of it, but the guidelines also tell supers to do illegal things and have always had a dose of that, so they're not really something you could rely on in court.

Basically, you *might* be grand, or the entire ton of bricks could land on you, and nobody has any way to tell you which of those it would be.

Don't misunderstand me, lots of people will happily tell you one way or the other, but they won't be liable out there in the spectators' seating area if it all goes pear-shaped, and legally, absolutely nobody can actually give a definitive answer right now without talking out of their hat because the law doesn't nail it down and there's no case law interpreting this point in this context (and the nature of case law is that it tends to be very specific so you need a test case that rule on the exact point of where the dividing line between antique and non-antique is, without doing something stupid like saying "if it's of historical significance" or some other dodge from a hard objective answer into "erra, it depends" territory).

gunny123

I see plenty of older firearms in catalogues in antique auctions and often wondered how they could be sold, and bought. Not just old muzzleloaders, but the likes of old .303's and webley revolvers.

Sparks

Well, I walk past people in the Jervis St. Shopping center handing out flyers and stuff for paintball every day of the week. Doesn't mean it's legal, just that nobody's enforcing the law, which are wildly different things, and all it takes is one bored Garda and you'd be in court.
Lads selling what they think of as antiques in auctions and the like are in exactly the same category. And they'll be absolutely grand, right up until they're not.

judestynes

Antique firearms are exempt from the provisions of the Firearms Acts provided they are
held as ornaments or curiosities. In the absence of a definition for an 'antique' firearm,
Ballistics section at Garda H.Q. applies the 'Pre Unitary Cartridge' rule which appears to
conform to international standards. Unitary cartridge ammunition consists of a cartridge -
usually metal which contains the primer - the propellant and the bullet within it. Modern
reproductions of antique firearms are not exempt from firearms legislation.
Some people will occasionally wish to purchase an old or antique firearm, or one which
is valuable because of its historical significance, for no reason other than as an
investment. This may sometimes be regarded as 'good reason' having regard to all the
circumstances, and if capable of being fired, these firearms will require a firearms
certificate.

Just going back on the thread about the new guidelines "pre unitary cartridge" would refer to a muzzle loader that's a pretty fair assumption, as for antique cartridge pieces if they're capable of being fired they need to be liscenced so no more collecting obsolete calibres even if you had obsolete's they need to be liscenced now. Buying these pieces as an investment is a bit of good news though, wonder how this would fly with the FO in my district??

Sparks

Again, like we've been saying for years, this all sounds great, but it is not the law. And that means it is not a legal defence you should rely on in court in any sane world. Because while we've heard that bit above before, we've heard other, mutually exclusive definitions for what an "antique firearm" is from other sources, whether those sources be the Gardai or the 1995 Finance Act or statements by then-Minister O'Donohue or other official sources such as the EU. As I said, this has come up before:

Sparks wrote: »

We don't actually have an official legal definition in Ireland of when a firearm is considered an antique
Or more accurately, we have several, all mutually exclusive or mostly so, and all from different places, with no clear idea of which wins.

It's come up a few times before:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=87373749
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81072893
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=79840159
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=56385649
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=54077847

Nekarsulm

gunny123 wrote: »

I see plenty of older firearms in catalogues in antique auctions and often wondered how they could be sold, and bought. Not just old muzzleloaders, but the likes of old .303's and webley revolvers.

Any I've handled have been butchered.
For example, a nice looking Spencer-Bannerman pump action shotgun appeared in a local antique auction house.
Looked great, you could cycle the action and the trigger and re-cocking lever both worked and the rolling/pivoting block cycled down and flipped up as it should.
But.
The magazine tube was crimped, the magazine follower was welded in the end of the tube, the magazine tube itself was welded to the action, the barrel had been cut longtitudinally with an angle grinder for more than the lenght of the chamber, directly above the mag. tube and the face of the pivoting block/bolt was welded up fusing the firing pin to the block.

And all this in a gun that can only use 2 and a half inch black powder cartridges.

Grizzly 45

I've seen that carry on of bothering the elderly and not knowing the value of a deceased firearm being harrassed to hand it in or sell it to a Garda member for a few hundred quid as it "isnt worth more,and I'm doing you a favour".

Except, in this case, it was a high-value German shotgun that a local Garda down in the Sthn part of the country had his beady on and only was waiting to get his rat claws on as well:mad:.He harassed the poor woman who didn't know the butt from the barrel of the gun, and had only buried the husband and a few weeks before.
Threatning her with all sorts of legal problems of having an unlicensed gun and that she would have to put it in storage where it would cost hundreds of euros etc.BUT of course, she could sell it to him for a few quid and the matter would be sorted.
She had the good sense to take it to a local firearms dealer who informed her of its correct value, something like the tenfold from what Garda Langer was offering, and she promptly sold it to the dealership.:D

Wonder how many of those kinds of stories have been here without a happier outcome around the country?

gunny123

A Neighbour of an uncle of mine, years ago, decided to take up shooting. He was a young guy with a young wife, they just has their first child. He had a well paying job, which was unusual at the time, mid-80's.

So he bought a brand spanking new anschutz sporter, one of the 1700 series rifles.

Not long after he was diagnosed with cancer and went in no time, poor fella. A couple of weeks after the funeral, a squad car pulled up and two bucko's got out, went to the door and told the widow she was in illegal possession of a firearm, what does she do ? Hands out the new anschutz to them, it could not have been more than 6 months old.
A relation of hers knew the value of the rifle and went to get it back, or value of. No trace of that rifle could be found.

Nekarsulm

A friends father used to butcher afew pigs every year on his farm.
He has an ancient and horrendously neglected Harrongton & Richardson single barrel, but alway preferred a rifle to dispatch them.
The local Sargent and him was very pally, and when tje time of year came around, he would drop out a rifle and a few rounds so the pigs could be shot.
This would be whatever gun was "resting" in the station.
He'd collect the rifle in a couple of weeks, and a parcrl of bacon for his trouble.
I know this because when that Guard retired, I was called upon to do the shooting.

Grizzly 45

This is a story told to me by the late Mr Phillip"Midlander/Plus twos" Lawton who wrote for ISD and various shooting mags around these isles. So I have no way of verifying its truth or accuracy anymore.

But this tale involved the family of a well known Irish born polar expedition leader's family wishing to sell his firearms, or donate them in the 1980s to a UK museum. They were 1972TCO'd guns, and they had the receipts and documentation of ownership.

The guns were unfindable and much consternation ensured in finding them. As rumblings of legal action was ensuing. The barracks the length and breadth of Army and AGS were turned upside down to find these guns

It turned out a then Garda Sgt who made it to Super at retirement and was a
gun fancier with access to the armoury where these guns were kept, decided that they would be nice in his own gun cabinet, along with a couple of nice Lugers and Mauser broom handle models too from the TCO collection.:eek:

As shure no doubt these guns would never be seen again by their owners as they were dying or dead or emigrated and the Irish Gubmint was never going to let the Irish people have guns like them again ...Why not?

Was apparently a major scandal up in the Park that was hushed up big time back then,as a few other bits of Irish citizens property, had grown little feet and went AWOL when an inventory was done

I would hope this is an archetypical story,as it would reflect badly on both security and the integrity of the servants of the state who took it upon themselves to look after our property for us all those years ago... But I somehow doubt it:(

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

This is a story told to me by the late Mr Phillip"Midlander/Plus twos" Lawton who wrote for ISD and various shooting mags around these isles. So I have no way of verifying its truth or accuracy anymore.

But this tale involved the family of a well known Irish born polar expedition leader's family wishing to sell his firearms, or donate them in the 1980s to a UK museum. They were 1972TCO'd guns, and they had the receipts and documentation of ownership.

The guns were unfindable and much consternation ensured in finding them. As rumblings of legal action was ensuing. The barracks the length and breadth of Army and AGS were turned upside down to find these guns

It turned out a then Garda Sgt who made it to Super at retirement and was a
gun fancier with access to the armoury where these guns were kept, decided that they would be nice in his own gun cabinet, along with a couple of nice Lugers and Mauser broom handle models too from the TCO collection.:eek:

As shure no doubt these guns would never be seen again by their owners as they were dying or dead or emigrated and the Irish Gubmint was never going to let the Irish people have guns like them again ...Why not?

Was apparently a major scandal up in the Park that was hushed up big time back then,as a few other bits of Irish citizens property, had grown little feet and went AWOL when an inventory was done

I would hope this is an archetypical story,as it would reflect badly on both security and the integrity of the servants of the state who took it upon themselves to look after our property for us all those years ago... But I somehow doubt it:(

I heard that story too years back, shameful carry on.

tac foley

I might have told this tale before, and if so, I'm sure that the PTB will haul it off. There were any amount of rumours back in the late 90's, of senior police officers here in UK with their own 'collections' of handguns that had been handed in at the '97 handgun ban. Whether or not there was any truth in them is open to conjecture, of course, but the old saw about smoke and fire would seem to hit the mark, as a number of serious court cases proved.

So, back to 1997 here in mainland UK, where the ordinary Joe and Joette had to hand their cartridge-firing handguns in after the appalling tragedy of Dunblane, the previous year. A pal of mine, who worked for an experimental machine shop in our local town, was part of an R&D team developing micro water-jet cutting for various materials, including such stuff as carbon fibre and exotic metals.

He only had one pistol - his pride and joy - a Colt Gold Cup in .45ACP. I wasn't there to see him hand it in to the officer behind the counter, but from him the conversation went something like this -

Him - Here's my pistol and here's my FAC. You can take them both.

Police Officer [hereafter PO] - just let me check the serial number against our records and the FAC.

Him - They should be the same, after all, you issued the FAC...

PO - Doesn't hurt to check, y'know...

Him - Like you've had a couple of hundred Colt Gold Cups handed in, right?

PO - Now, now, Sir, I know this is stressful for you, but I'm only doing my job...

Him - In that case, you'll be wanting to take care if you try and pick it up - use a pencil in the muzzle...

PO, looking at him like he had grown another eye - Why would I do that?

Him - I wouldn't like you to get hurt, OK?

PO - What have you done to it? [looking slightly alarmed].

Him - Try and pick it up, using the pencil in the muzzle, and you'll find out.

The PO did as he suggested, and to his utter amazement, the gun came to pieces where the pencil inside the barrel ended. And so, too, did the rest of the gun when poked by the by-now astonished PO. 'What the *** have you done to it?' he cried out...'Well, since it was my property at the time, I thought I try out our new micro-bore water-jet cutter on it, and I've cut it into 120 slices - just like a sliced loaf. I'd like to see you flat-foot b*ggers shoot THAT in your spare time!

So saying, he gave the finger to the CCTV and walked out, not happy, but strangely satisfied.

Grizzly 45

WELL PLAYED that Man!!:D:D:D
Must have had some Irish Celtic warrior DNA in there.As it was the greatest shame for our Celtic ancestors to either surrender their weapons intact or hand them to their victors. Remember Vercingetorix the Gaul throwing his swords and armour at,[and maybe on]Ceasers feet after his defeat at Alesia? Or why some family crests here have arms holding broken swords and spears?

Be a plan of mass defiance if ever a gun ban came in here.:(

Grizzly 45

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Any I've handled have been butchered.
For example, a nice looking Spencer-Bannerman pump action shotgun

And all this in a gun that can only use 2 and a half inch black powder cartridges.

The "Mossberg/Mavericks" of their day...About 800 to 1200 usd value. Have more historical value than dollar value.:(

judestynes

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Be a plan of mass defiance if ever a gun ban came in here.:(

A better plan is just don't give them. ( as I type this Rick Astley just popped into my head) added to the list of things never gonna give up :P

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Remember Vercingetorix the Gaul throwing his swords and armour at,[and maybe on]Ceasers feet after his defeat at Alesia?

Jaysus, was that John Vercingetorix from ballygofermot? Grand lad he was, shure he always got his round in. I remember talking with him about yer wan from up the ways there and her lad like it was only yesterday. Tall fella, wasn't he, with that funny left eyebrow? What's he up to these days?

Nekarsulm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The "Mossberg/Mavericks" of their day...About 800 to 1200 usd value. Have more historical value than dollar value.:(

I like things with peculiar mechanisms!
I dont know what shape the man who owned it was, arms the lenght of a 12 year old, and a neck like a giraffe!
There's 5 inches of drop on the stock.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Jaysus, was that John Vercingetorix from ballygofermot? Grand lad he was, shure he always got his round in. I remember talking with him about yer wan from up the ways there and her lad like it was only yesterday. Tall fella, wasn't he, with that funny left eyebrow? What's he up to these days?

You owe me a new computer screen! A mouth load of coffee went down the wrong way and was projected Regan like at it from laughing,choking and trying to inhale at the same time.:D