Can I refuse to do overtime?

Ash.J.Williams

myshirt wrote: »

We still have this per hour mentality which stems from the public service. A per hour rate is suitable for a less developed economy, less complex work, unskilled, minimum wage, or manufacturing led for example. There used to also be a piece rate if you recall, where you would get paid per unit you produced.

The per hour rate is not at all suitable now. Op you should work a minimum of 39 hours excluding breaks, but overall I would expect you to average out at anything from 42 to 48.

In my profession, it is not uncommon for people to work every second Saturday unpaid, and a few odd half day Sundays. Other than that, normal hours are 8.00 or 8.30ish to 7 or 8 that night with two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute break, usually lunch al desco. Get rid of this civil service mentality, it is for a different age.

It's common to put in the extra work during the week but not Saturdays... I'd be expensing time and a half for that... Make them feel the pain..

ELM327

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

It's common to put in the extra work during the week but not Saturdays... I'd be expensing time and a half for that... Make them feel the pain..

Staying the extra 30 minutes to an hour or so to complete a project, send an important email or just complete the task you were working on is perfectly acceptable. However being expected to come in unpaid at the weekends is not.

Now if you are making the choice to leave at bang on 5pm each weekday and choosing instead to come in for a couple hours on a saturday well that's a little different. Horses for courses.

dr.fuzzenstein

No reply from myshirt. I suspect he's doing a bit of overtime... :P:pac:

Uboat

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

No reply from myshirt. I suspect he's doing a bit of overtime... :P:pac:

:D:D

southstar

Wow ...how well mind slavery gets a hold.Compensate me for the hours I work. Im no clockwatcher and I'll do extra if its needed in unusual circumstances but its not taken for granted.Would you settle for customers/clients who took you for granted

sadie1502

contrary_devil wrote: »

I have great interest in this debate as earlier this week I attended an interview for a position in logistics which will be a salaried one. At the interview I was asked how would I react if I had to work outside of normal hours if needed and of course I said it would be ok as every job has times when this happens. There was no mention of overtime payment. The only thing that was asked was regards what my salary expectations were and I gave a figure that I thought would be reasonable for the type of work.
Most previous jobs I have had were paid hourly, some with overtime at a flat rate and some with a premium for overtime so this salary lark is completely alien to me.
As others have said I wouldn't mind a half hour or an hour here and there to finish something but if it was to be a few hours per week or the last week of the month regularly had extra hours to be worked I would be expecting payment or TOIL or a higher salary to compensate.
I have to say that I am astounded by some of the suggestions put forward by some posters regarding the hours worked in salaried professional positions.

If it's logistics I can assure you you'll be working a hell of a lot more than what you're paid for.

CinthiaQueiroz

Hi everybody,

Thank you for all the posts here.
I work in admin inside retail. 😂😂

Today I was told that the payment would be already included in my salary and that it should not be required a lot of overtime as in the rates some people wrote here (that 48 hours averaged).
What concerns me is when it stops being overtime and starts being considered as part of your job.

Anyway, I plan to talk to my manager about this because I believe people are only doing overtime for disorganization issues.
I see the team wasting time doing nothing and then staying late or even not having their breaks.

And as I saw somebody saying here, I check how much would it cost the hour, so I am not staying for a 10 hours day and in the end not get paid for it. I don't have a 60k contract.

I hope it won't mark my head but I can't stay quiet about this. They all saw today that I was not ok and smiling, so it's better to solve this asap.

Thanks again for your help here.

beauf

If it gets rewarded and its warranted then fine. If not then its just bad management or sharp practice.

beauf

ELM327 wrote: »

Staying the extra 30 minutes to an hour or so to complete a project, send an important email or just complete the task you were working on is perfectly acceptable. However being expected to come in unpaid at the weekends is not.

Now if you are making the choice to leave at bang on 5pm each weekday and choosing instead to come in for a couple hours on a saturday well that's a little different. Horses for courses.

Its doesn't matter if the time is done an hour every day. Or all in one go at the weekend. Its still the same time.

davo10

If only every manager could manage every employee to do every task exactly on time. If only customers didn't demand more from their suppliers. If only owners would stop taking on more work to make profits and grow the business. If only employees could be replaced by machines who do jobs automatically on a set algorithm, oh wait, that would mean there would be no employees nor need for overtime. Of course that is not the way it works and occasionally more time needs to be spent on projects, is this bad management? Maybe, is it avoidable? Maybe, does it happen? Yes.

Electric Sheep

Gravelly wrote: »

This! I do a fair bit of work with both Germans and Americans - the difference is stark - The Germans do the exact hours they're meant to, and no more - I've never received a call or an email outside of office hours from any or our German clients. However, when they are in the office, they work hard.
Americans, by contrast, work ridiculous hours - they seem to go out of their way to organise calls or meetings for an hour or two after their normal finishing time (the amount of 8pm meetings I have in the states is weird). However, I find their productivity to be very low - it typically takes them far longer to get anything done than any European office. They also practically beg you to bring any success they have to their immediate superiors attention.

I always give credit to the immediate supervisor for any coworker that goes the extra mile for me. It's common professional courtesy.

whiskeygirl

myshirt wrote: »

We still have this per hour mentality which stems from the public service. A per hour rate is suitable for a less developed economy, less complex work, unskilled, minimum wage, or manufacturing led for example. There used to also be a piece rate if you recall, where you would get paid per unit you produced.

The per hour rate is not at all suitable now. Op you should work a minimum of 39 hours excluding breaks, but overall I would expect you to average out at anything from 42 to 48.

In my profession, it is not uncommon for people to work every second Saturday unpaid, and a few odd half day Sundays. Other than that, normal hours are 8.00 or 8.30ish to 7 or 8 that night with two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute break, usually lunch al desco. Get rid of this civil service mentality, it is for a different age.

Ironically enough, most civil servants don't get paid OT, just a day in lieu to a maximum of 1.5 days a month. Your job sounds horrible by the way!

yabadabado

I genuinely feel sorry for some of the posters in here.Id same some employers must break their bollix laughing at the complete sheep they have employed.

Tzardine

yabadabado wrote: »

I genuinely feel sorry for some of the posters in here.Id same some employers must break their bollix laughing at the complete sheep they have employed.

What actually happens is that these goons become the expected norm, and the guy who stands up against this nonsense is seen as the mad one.

myshirt

myshirt wrote: »

We still have this per hour mentality which stems from the public service. A per hour rate is suitable for a less developed economy, less complex work, unskilled, minimum wage, or manufacturing led for example. There used to also be a piece rate if you recall, where you would get paid per unit you produced.

The per hour rate is not at all suitable now. Op you should work a minimum of 39 hours excluding breaks, but overall I would expect you to average out at anything from 42 to 48.

In my profession, it is not uncommon for people to work every second Saturday unpaid, and a few odd half day Sundays. Other than that, normal hours are 8.00 or 8.30ish to 7 or 8 that night with two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute break, usually lunch al desco. Get rid of this civil service mentality, it is for a different age.

I work as a hospital pharmacist. Everything I do puts my registration as a pharmacist at risk. Part and parcel of the job. If I do overtime. I expect to be financially renumerated for the added risks of doing overtime. Maybe, in your profession making a mistake is not a big deal. In mine, it literally could kill someone. Whether that is making up chemotherapy, prepping a patient for a renal transplant or advising on comparability of medication for patients deteriorating rapidly in an intensive care unit.

myshirt

myshirt wrote: »

We still have this per hour mentality which stems from the public service. A per hour rate is suitable for a less developed economy, less complex work, unskilled, minimum wage, or manufacturing led for example. There used to also be a piece rate if you recall, where you would get paid per unit you produced.

The per hour rate is not at all suitable now. Op you should work a minimum of 39 hours excluding breaks, but overall I would expect you to average out at anything from 42 to 48.

In my profession, it is not uncommon for people to work every second Saturday unpaid, and a few odd half day Sundays. Other than that, normal hours are 8.00 or 8.30ish to 7 or 8 that night with two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute break, usually lunch al desco. Get rid of this civil service mentality, it is for a different age.

I work as a hospital pharmacist. Everything I do puts my registration as a pharmacist at risk. Part and parcel of the job. If I do overtime. I expect to be financially renumerated for the added risks of doing overtime. Maybe, in your profession making a mistake is not a big deal. In mine, it literally could kill someone. Whether that is making up chemotherapy, prepping a patient for a renal transplant or advising on comparability of medication for patients deteriorating rapidly in an intensive care unit.

beauf

davo10 wrote: »

If only every manager could manage every employee to do every task exactly on time. If only customers didn't demand more from their suppliers. If only owners would stop taking on more work to make profits and grow the business. If only employees could be replaced by machines who do jobs automatically on a set algorithm, oh wait, that would mean there would be no employees nor need for overtime. Of course that is not the way it works and occasionally more time needs to be spent on projects, is this bad management? Maybe, is it avoidable? Maybe, does it happen? Yes.

Occasionally is the not issue. How is that not obvious...

chicorytip

myshirt wrote:

We still have this per hour mentality which stems from the public service. A per hour rate is suitable for a less developed economy, less complex work, unskilled, minimum wage, or manufacturing led for example. There used to also be a piece rate if you recall, where you would get paid per unit you produced.

myshirt wrote:

The per hour rate is not at all suitable now. Op you should work a minimum of 39 hours excluding breaks, but overall I would expect you to average out at anything from 42 to 48.

The entire pay structure of manufacturing industry is based on a per hour structure as is that of clerical and administrative grades in the civil and public service!! And what's this reference to "salaried positions"? Complete nonsense! No employee (excepting those in the voluntary sector) should be required to do work without being renumerated for that work. The OP here ought to tell his "superiors" to get stuffed.

beauf

Guild system
As a term and as a common form of labor, 'piece work' had its origins in the guild system of work during the Commercial Revolution[dubious – discuss] and before the Industrial Revolution.[citation needed] Since the phrase 'piece work' first appears in writing around the year 1549, it is likely that at about this time, the master craftsmen of the guild system began to assign their apprentices work on pieces which could be performed at home, rather than within the master's workshop.[citation needed] In the British factory system, workers mass-produced parts from a fixed design as part of a division of labor, but did not have the advantage of machine tools or metalworking jigs.[citation needed] Simply counting the number of pieces produced by a worker was likely easier than accounting for that worker's time, as would have been required for the computation of an hourly wage.[dubious – discuss]

I think hourly wage concept has been around forever...

Peregrinus

beauf wrote: »

I think hourly wage concept has been around forever...

No, not at all. Its dominance is very much a modern thing, stemming from the industrial revolution and the commodification of labour. For most of history, hired unskilled labour was paid by the day (and the day lasted until the overseer said it did), and hired skilled labour was paid by output (so much to a blacksmith per horse shod; how long he took to shoe the horse was his own problem) or by project (so much to a colonel to raise and equip a regiment).

the_syco

myshirt wrote: »

The per hour rate is not at all suitable now. Op you should work a minimum of 39 hours excluding breaks, but overall I would expect you to average out at anything from 42 to 48.

If my contract says I get X amount for Y hours, X doesn't decrease if Y increases.

myshirt wrote: »

In my profession, it is not uncommon for people to work every second Saturday unpaid, and a few odd half day Sundays. Other than that, normal hours are 8.00 or 8.30ish to 7 or 8 that night with two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute break, usually lunch al desco. Get rid of this civil service mentality, it is for a different age.

I call a spade a spade. If you get paid by the fortnight, and you work the same amount every fortnight, then divide your pay by your hours. If it drops below minimum wage, you're a fool. If it doesn't, you get the pay you get to cover the hours you work.

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm a lawyer, currently in government service. I don't get paid overtime, and I didn't when I worked in the private sector either. Clerical and support staff do get overtime, but the professionals don't.

Do you get remunerated in any other way? For example, TOIL, etc?

Me, I'm 8-4. If I'm not doing anything at 4, I leave at 4. If I'm doing something at 4, I either finish it up, or leave it until tomorrow if I can. Sometimes, though, I can't leave it until tomorrow.

Someone said that people have lives outside of work; that's fine, once they don't leave others pick up their slack.

Peregrinus wrote: »

hired skilled labour was paid by output (so much to a blacksmith per horse shod; how long he took to shoe the horse was his own problem) or by project (so much to a colonel to raise and equip a regiment).

A fair few people that I saw do unpaid overtime in my past job were those who couldn't manage their time. Thus, they would be just taking that little bit longer to shoe the horse.

Gone Drinking wrote: »

The consulting I do can't always be done in "normal time frames", as some customers are 24/7 operations, ie, hospitals. I know my hours and I could easily tell a customer to piss off if they were looking for advice at 7pm, but I wouldn't do it. It wouldn't be good for them, for me or the organisation I work for. If I was doing this all the time, yeah, i would expect it but I'm not going to barge into the office the next day demanding overtime.

This. Although I'm 8-4, if someone rings me out of hours, I may help them. I won't get paid for it, but sometimes fixing it now, rather than tomorrow, is a lot less hassle.

Peregrinus

the_syco wrote: »

Do you get remunerated in any other way? For example, TOIL, etc?

TOIL informally, and only to a limited extent.

the_syco wrote: »

A fair few people that I saw do unpaid overtime in my past job were those who couldn't manage their time. Thus, they would be just taking that little bit longer to shoe the horse.

I think one of the points about being in a professional occupation is that you're
largely in control of the management of your own work. In these circumstances you're not likely to be paid hourly overtime, since that gives you an incentive to manage your work inefficiently, which is not a good incentive to give people.

Having said that, if you are taking that little bit longer to shoe the horse, so to speak, that's not necessarily because you "can't manage your time". It may simply be because you prefer to work in a different way, or because you're using the task as an opportunity to educate or train yourself, or to network, or lots of other things. As long as you're doing good work, are satisfied in your work, and have satisfied clients, the actual number of hours you devote to it matters only to you. Spending longer at it that Joe or Mary in the next office isn't necessarily "mismanagement", but nor is it a reason why you should be paid more than Joe or Mary.

mikemac2

myshirt wrote: »

We still have this per hour mentality which stems from the public service. A per hour rate is suitable for a less developed economy, less complex work, unskilled, minimum wage, or manufacturing led for example. There used to also be a piece rate if you recall, where you would get paid per unit you produced.

The per hour rate is not at all suitable now. Op you should work a minimum of 39 hours excluding breaks, but overall I would expect you to average out at anything from 42 to 48.

In my profession, it is not uncommon for people to work every second Saturday unpaid, and a few odd half day Sundays. Other than that, normal hours are 8.00 or 8.30ish to 7 or 8 that night with two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute break, usually lunch al desco. Get rid of this civil service mentality, it is for a different age.

If your company is pulling in fees why can't they hire some extra staff to help?

Accountant? Plenty of accountants in the public service and they won't be having heart attacks by age 50 which is where you're heading to. And then your boss will say ah myshirt, nice chap lets hire a young fresh replacement and they will be cheaper than myshirt too. Hey maybe we can ofshore myshirts work to India and save €€€.

PhoenixParker

Gone Drinking wrote: »

So if a delivery company has 10 vans and 10 drivers which for most of the time was fine, however two days a month they had more to deliver, you would expect them to buy another van and hire another person? You'd be complaining about the delivery charge then, because that would need to go up to cover it.

Or the other option: The company ask two drivers can they do an extra hour or two, to make sure they get all their deliveries done thus helping the customer/the company. One driver says no, the other driver agrees.

The a new position comes up in the company a year down the line. Which of those guys is going to be considered a better option? The guy who does right by the customer or the guy who's about getting out on time?

What about if you're waiting on a bus or train and it never arrives? See here: http://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/luas-driver-refused-operate-tram-13553744

I think some of the attitudes here are a bit laughable. Maybe its a lack of understanding of business or just a lack of ambition.

I used to think it worked like that.

It doesn't. Seen it time and time again.

First off the guy doing extra is more difficult to replace as a driver. He's staying put. From a business perspective it's better to promote someone else. All that guy will find is that it's more difficult to take time off because they realllllly need him on his long days.

The new position probably won't be a van driver so there's no reason to give it to your best van driver, you give it to the guy who's best suited to the job or you go external. If it's managing the van drivers it'll be the guy who seems easiest for the office team to work with.

Saw it across everywhere in the recession. Redundancies didn't take any account of who was a great employee and who was a moron.

A little unpaid overtime is fine in a salaried position if it's during crunch periods and there's give and take with your employer. Anything beyond that and you need to stand up for yourself. If you don't respect you, they certainly won't.

beauf

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, not at all. Its dominance is very much a modern thing, stemming from the industrial revolution and the commodification of labour. For most of history, hired unskilled labour was paid by the day (and the day lasted until the overseer said it did), and hired skilled labour was paid by output (so much to a blacksmith per horse shod; how long he took to shoe the horse was his own problem) or by project (so much to a colonel to raise and equip a regiment).

That is a pretty long time ago.

I did consider that having a clock or watch is a fairly recent thing so it can't have existed before that.

Zubeneschamali

The kind of culture where people work 12 hour days eventually gets less productive anyhow. People can't keep that up for a year. An office run that way is just burning people out for no reason.

Go home. Take your holidays every year. You will be better at your job when you are there if you are NOT there 24/7.

Bigus

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The kind of culture where people work 12 hour days eventually gets less productive anyhow. People can't keep that up for a year. An office run that way is just burning people out for no reason.

Go home. Take your holidays every year. You will be better at your job when you are there if you are NOT there 24/7.

Absolutely I agree as a former large employer.,
There's good reason why worldwide in the western world a 5 day 8 hour work week developed , because in the long run it's a lot more productive to give people time off to recuperate brains , muscles and initiative.

Overtime is only productive for the employer in random spurts and I'd go as far as to say that constant overtime is TOTALLY counter productive.

Markcheese

Anyway to the O. P.,
. Since you're new to the job, they can let you go with no reason (it's not working out).
. . . . try minimise your overtime and start looking for another position...

Xterminator

I think give and take is the key.

im my job is my kid is sick or i have to go somewhere i can ask to work from home, or leave early etc. It doesn't cost me a days holidays or a 1/2 day etc. So when i have a task that has to be done out of hours to minimize impact - i don't mind. If i do a 1/2 or a full day, ill get time TIL, at a time when its quiet.

if i'm on boards.ie during the working day, its no big deal. If my boss calls on a saturday to ask a question, its no big deal. and at the end of the year i get a salary, and a bonus. The bonus is (IMO) for what you do above and beyond the regular demands of the job. and i usually feel like i earned it through going the extra mile when its required.

I will tell you one thing more, do you think richard branson, steve jobs or Mark Zuckerberg count the hours they work when trying to get a project over the line? all 3 companies are reputed to be decent at work life balance policy, but does anyone personally think they clock out at 37.5 hrs on a friday ?

IMO peoples attitude to this subject, reflects their personal values and their relationship with their employers. So to people who say they wont do overtime when needed except when paid by the hour, more power to you.

i think it does say something about you and your employer.

Caliden

Bigus wrote: »

Absolutely I agree as a former large employer.,
There's good reason why worldwide in the western world a 5 day 8 hour work week developed , because in the long run it's a lot more productive to give people time off to recuperate brains , muscles and initiative.

Overtime is only productive for the employer in random spurts and I'd go as far as to say that constant overtime is TOTALLY counter productive.

I don't work a physically intensive job more a mentally intensive one and to be honest by 3-4pm I'm next to useless. I get my best work done early in the mornings.

I've stayed working on something for 4-5 hours extra trying to figure it out and got nowhere.
Got into the office early the following morning and had it solved in less than an hour.