Can I refuse to do overtime?

Gone Drinking · 14-09-2017 9:15am

This really depends on your position and type of work I guess but for a lot of professional or salary positions, its a necessary evil..

All my jobs have been salary and the only time I got paid overtime was when I would have to do on call work. I'm not always doing unpaid overtime, but I will when things need to get finished, or someone is waiting on me for something. Or just to get my job done well.

What about taking on projects or work that might fall slightly outside your job scope, in the hope of progressing yourself further in the company? How can you do that without working a bit of unpaid overtime? How does anyone get further up in their profession not doing that.. I see a lot of lads in my work who have the "I'm here from 9-5" mindset and they're still doing the same crap they started doing 5 years previous where as others have moved into better paid positions up the ladder.

I'd also like to know how those who don't believe in unpaid overtime would feel if they were waiting on a service or product, but didn't get it because the person helping them downed tools at 5pm on the dot because they don't get paid overtime.

Peregrinus · 14-09-2017 9:16am

ellobee wrote: »

I can only speak of my experience in the private sector, but any job which pays a decent salary say 60k upwards, you are expected to get the job done whatever it takes and if that means working extra hours so be it.

Basically, yes. You're paid a professional salary to do a professional job. If you can't routinely do the job while working reasonable hours something is wrong, but it's not that you're not being paid enough.

Gravelly · 14-09-2017 9:21am

On a side note, if we're looking to move someone up to management, we will usually give them a project to work on that would test them a bit. This might involve working longer than they're used to, and with more responsibility. It would be a red flag straight away if their first concern was overtime. Not saying this is the case with you, but an employee whose chief concern is overtime is probably never going to be management material - and that's fine, lots of people would rather not have that stress and responsibility anyway.

theteal · 14-09-2017 9:24am

No paid overtime for us, not that we'd do a whole lot. We do get time in lieu for any significant stints.

ArnieSilvia · 14-09-2017 9:27am

OP, check the standards for your industry, it might be the way everywhere.

I moved to technical sales briefly and I was very clear about the work life balance at the interview.

The reality was that I was doing 12 hrs every day. I tried to talk with boss about it but he put all blame on me. I left shortly and went back to my previous industry.

An hour here and there is not a problem for me but when it became a pattern I started dividing salary into hours and it was worth less than factory work I used to do.

If you work in a professional job for an hourly rate below factory worker INCLUDING O/T at 1.5 time or double time (as applicable) then you're not a professional, you are a working class:pac:

I know that there's a bigger picture, career etc but it comes at the price (stress/travel/work life balance) as I found out.

Ultimately, I found that the type of work is not as much important as how much does it pay PER HOUR. Work is work. Even best career is work. If it doesn't pay more than easier jobs then it's not worth it.

witchgirl26 · 14-09-2017 9:33am

I'm in internal audit and for my whole career (once I qualified) overtime was unpaid no official time in lieu. I've been on a salary as opposed to a per hour rate that whole time. Now the difference is that the overtime I do is generally few and far between and usually just to get something across the line. There could be a few weeks where I'll be doing an hour or 2 extra every night but then months would go by where I'm out the door as usual. I actually don't know any of my friends who get paid overtime who are in professional roles.

I would say however that it all depends on the attitude towards overtime. I'm not willing to spend extra time at my desk to "be seen" to put in the hours. I'll do it if needed but not as a standard all the time thing. Likewise where I am now (& my previous role actually) there was a bit of give and take. If I needed to finish early some day for an appointment & my boss knows I've put in extra time to get something sorted before, he's more likely to be accommodating.

OP before freaking out and refusing overtime maybe try to get a sense of how often it is/how long normally. It could be that it's just every so often for a couple of hours.

ellobee · 14-09-2017 9:34am

so my advice is if you want to keep the job then suck it up while you are on probation, once your probation period is up and you are permanent then as ArnieSilvia said calculate the hours you regularly do against your salary and see what actual hourly rate you are being paid, and if its too low then complain or look for another job.

Tell me how · 14-09-2017 9:43am

shaunr68 wrote:

It should bloody well be illegal. People have families and lives outside of work. Employers should be upfront and reasonable about overtime. It also shows how important it is to read your contract of employment.

I agree with above outside of the first sentence.

In a salaried position you may be more likely to have flexible start finish times and sometimes might do less than 40hrs/week. Not saying overtime is equal to time in lieu but it is often there to some degree.

With respect to "people have lives and family outside of work" you are correct but so often people use this as an excuse for not working back for ten minutes yet they had no problem sending half an hour during work time doing lives/family type things. Where's the quid pro quo?

Also, in some places where salaried positions operate, the individual has a large degree of autonomy. If it was paid overtime you'd be guaranteed that most people would be doing 4 hrs per week but productivity would not increase by 10%.

Another one, salaried roles are often for jobs where the volume of work required is less obvious than for hourly duties. This would make it difficult for the business if it had to have staff in reserve to cover such demands. Existing staff doing overtime is everyone trying to help run an efficient business.

People may point to businesses where staff are exploited and expected to do an excessive amount all the time but I think these are outliers as opposed to everyone's experience. This is outside of industries where a constant, large amount of unpaid overtime is well known as a feature of the job. I'm thinking of hospital Dr's and big 4 junior accountants here for example.

In this case, I think the OP should walk rather than be pushed should they refuse to do it, given they signed a contract without ensuring that they were comfortable with it.

Jimbob1977 · 14-09-2017 9:43am

It's really a clash of cultures....

The German/French/Civil Service model dictates that you complete your working hours as scheduled. Outside of standard working hours, your time is personal and work should not impinge on it. There is an argument that it's too rigid and inflexible in the modern world.

The American/British model treats overtime as necessary. People almost wear it as a 'badge of honour'. Look at me! I did 70 hours last week. I didn't see my wife or kids. American multinationals tend to reward people with excellent salaries, but they will extract their pound of flesh. The culture is normally superficial too.

I had a recruitment agent on the phone during the week. Standard working hours in the prospective company were 9 to 5.30, but he admitted that most people stayed until 7pm

It depends on your profession.

Work for a multinational - expect unpaid overtime.

Work in retail - You should expect to receive overtime payments

ionapaul · 14-09-2017 9:50am

I'm also one of those people who work in an industry where overtime is somewhat common (if necessary, rather than all the time or it being expected) and no compensation is offered or sought, it's just a standard thing. Have worked in various salaried positions for over 15 years and I don't think overtime was something available in any of the previous places, at least not to salaried employees on more than the 'average wage' level.

Gravelly · 14-09-2017 9:51am

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

It's really a clash of cultures....

The German/French/Civil Service model dictates that you complete your working hours as scheduled. Outside of standard working hours, your time is personal and work should not impinge on it. There is an argument that it's too rigid and inflexible in the modern world.

The American/British model treats overtime as necessary. People almost wear it as a 'badge of honour'. Look at me! I did 70 hours last week. I didn't see my wife or kids. American multinationals tend to reward people with excellent salaries, but they will extract their pound of flesh. The culture is normally superficial too.

I had a recruitment agent on the phone during the week. Standard working hours in the prospective company were 9 to 5.30, but he admitted that most people stayed until 7pm

It depends on your profession.

Work for a multinational - expect unpaid overtime.

Work in retail - You should expect overtime

This! I do a fair bit of work with both Germans and Americans - the difference is stark - The Germans do the exact hours they're meant to, and no more - I've never received a call or an email outside of office hours from any or our German clients. However, when they are in the office, they work hard.
Americans, by contrast, work ridiculous hours - they seem to go out of their way to organise calls or meetings for an hour or two after their normal finishing time (the amount of 8pm meetings I have in the states is weird). However, I find their productivity to be very low - it typically takes them far longer to get anything done than any European office. They also practically beg you to bring any success they have to their immediate superiors attention.

Hector Savage · 14-09-2017 9:54am

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Unpaid overtime in a salaried position is very common.

And the casual acceptance of this is the reason they get away with it.

shaunr68 · 14-09-2017 10:04am

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

This mindset belongs in the dark ages.

What belongs in the dark ages is the Dickensian mentality that you must accept any unreasonable conditions imposed by your employer because the alternative is the workhouse.

Gravelly · 14-09-2017 10:06am

shaunr68 wrote: »

What belongs in the dark ages is the Dickensian mentality that you must accept any unreasonable conditions imposed by your employer because the alternative is the workhouse.

Did someone suggest this? Must have missed that post.

14-09-2017 10:10am

myshirt wrote: »

.................

In my profession, it is not uncommon for people to work every second Saturday unpaid, and a few odd half day Sundays. Other than that, normal hours are 8.00 or 8.30ish to 7 or 8 that night with two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute break, usually lunch al desco. Get rid of this civil service mentality, it is for a different age...............

That's a 45/50 hour week Mon to Fri and working every second Saturday too, unless it's a profession where you're on €100k/annum after 4 or 5 years it's a fairly grim existence unless you are exaggerating.

Even if well compensated salary wise it's a grim enough life, far too much time at work.

The J Stands for Jay · 14-09-2017 10:27am

Amira Mushy Suit wrote: »

Marketing in the Industrial Automation Industry. I only do unpaid O/T a handful of times a year though, usually for a large project or event. Never on the regular. I usually get compensated by extra days holidays, an extra bonus at the end of the year on top of my normal bonus or vouchers.

Edit: My husband also works in IT and never gets paid directly for O/T, but gets extra days holidays also. Their very generous with it though, if he does 4 hours O/T they usually give him a full day without him asking.

Both these examples seem reasonable. It's the stereotypical accountant/solicitor firm where people barely get 8 hours a night out of the office, but it's 'expected' and no-one gets any recognition or reward for it that I find unfathomable. I've said in an interview on the past that I was no longer interested b in the position when they described their culture as being like this.

Squatman · 14-09-2017 10:29am

myshirt wrote: »

We still have this per hour mentality which stems from the public service. A per hour rate is suitable for a less developed economy, less complex work, unskilled, minimum wage, or manufacturing led for example. There used to also be a piece rate if you recall, where you would get paid per unit you produced.

The per hour rate is not at all suitable now. Op you should work a minimum of 39 hours excluding breaks, but overall I would expect you to average out at anything from 42 to 48.

In my profession, it is not uncommon for people to work every second Saturday unpaid, and a few odd half day Sundays. Other than that, normal hours are 8.00 or 8.30ish to 7 or 8 that night with two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute break, usually lunch al desco. Get rid of this civil service mentality, it is for a different age.

i wouldnt want to work for or with you!

The J Stands for Jay · 14-09-2017 10:30am

ellobee wrote: »

I can only speak of my experience in the private sector, but any job which pays a decent salary say 60k upwards, you are expected to get the job done whatever it takes and if that means working extra hours so be it.

I would expect (and I've seen it) that in these positions you would work less hours in a week if the job is being done in less time.

14-09-2017 10:31am

McGaggs wrote: »

........... It's the stereotypical accountant/solicitor firm where people barely get 8 his a night out of the office, but it's 'expected' and no-one gets any recognition or reward for it that I find unfathomable...............

I dunno about the solicitor firms but the sheer number of accountants being churned out every year surely can't be doing much to prevent the loads of hours culture.

Accountants are like civil engineers, loads and loads of them and most of the jobs are sh1t enough.

The J Stands for Jay · 14-09-2017 10:32am

Gone Drinking wrote: »

I'd also like to know how those who don't believe in unpaid overtime would feel if they were waiting on a service or product, but didn't get it because the person helping them downed tools at 5pm on the dot because they don't get paid overtime.

I'd be annoyed at the people in charge who didn't have enough staff to complete the task in time.

Gravelly · 14-09-2017 10:32am

Augeo wrote: »

I dunno about the solicitor firms but the sheer number of accountants being churned out every year surely can't be doing much to prevent the loads of hours culture.

Accountants are like civil engineers, loads and loads of them and most of the jobs are sh1t enough.

It's beyond my understanding why anyone would want to be an accountant but different strokes for different folks I suppose.

Harika · 14-09-2017 10:36am

McGaggs wrote: »

I would expect (and I've seen it) that in these positions you would work less hours in a week if the job is being done in less time.

Only in an ideal world, in reality if your superior realises that you get the assigned work done in less than 40 hours, you simply get more work assigned.
In my contract it states to work 160 hours in a rolling six week interval. So if I work 48 hours in a week, in one of the following five weeks I am expected to take a day off or save eight hours in any way. As we have an honor system for that, it is on myself to keep that, while confirming with my manager that it works also for the company and we have no issues with that.

14-09-2017 10:39am

Gravelly wrote: »

It's beyond my understanding why anyone would want to be an accountant but different strokes for different folks I suppose.

My sister is a chartered accountant.
Has a B Comm, did the 4 years KPMG apprentice gig .......... got chartered. Etc etc.

She didn't like the KPMG style of job so went working for multnational companies (software, pharma etc etc) as an accountant.

She's never really had a very decent job from a financial perspective and does loads of hours for end of month, quarter, year etc

She's still in touch with her old KPMG buddies who have gone varying routes. Some are high up in KPMG, others went into banking etc.

All seem to be rat raced to death. Some are on €100k ish / annum but their companies are getting great value out of them and when they burn out (as some have) another person is rolled in to replace them without too much trouble.

If you look at contracting/temp rates for acocountants it tells the story......... the rates are brutal, less than salaried positions.

Compare that to IT or some disciplines of engineering where you can get €500/€600 per day for 8 hrs in Ireland in a relatively handy but skilled role.

Gravelly · 14-09-2017 10:45am

Augeo wrote: »

My sister is a chartered accountant.
Has a B Comm, did the 4 years KPMG apprentice gig .......... got chartered. Etc etc.

She didn't like the KPMG style of job so went working for multnational companies (software, pharma etc etc) as an accountant.

She's never really had a very decent job from a financial perspective and does loads of hours for end of month, quarter, year etc

She's still in touch with her old KPMG buddies who have gone varying routes. Some are high up in KPMG, others went into banking etc.

All seem to be rat raced to death. Some are on €100k ish / annum but their companies are getting great value out of them and when they burn out (as some have) another person is rolled in to replace them without too much trouble.

If you look at contracting/temp rates for acocountants it tells the story......... the rates are brutal, less than salaried positions.

Compare that to IT or some disciplines of engineering where you can get €500/€600 per day for 8 hrs in Ireland in a relatively handy but skilled role.

I've a niece that's recently finished her apprenticeship with one of the big 6 - it sounds like an utterly ****e existence. Crazy hours in a repetitive role, and it's pure dog eat dog. She never seems to be off company time - they are expected to "show their faces in the right places" as she puts it even on weekends.

Caliden · 14-09-2017 10:56am

Augeo wrote: »

My sister is a chartered accountant.
Has a B Comm, did the 4 years KPMG apprentice gig .......... got chartered. Etc etc.

She didn't like the KPMG style of job so went working for multnational companies (software, pharma etc etc) as an accountant.

Tell her to look at working in the central bank. It's the holy grail for accountants.

Augeo wrote: »

That's a 45/50 hour week Mon to Fri and working every second Saturday too, unless it's a profession where you're on €100k/annum after 4 or 5 years it's a fairly grim existence unless you are exaggerating.

Even if well compensated salary wise it's a grim enough life, far too much time at work.

For fun I worked out 11 hour days (6 days a week) on minimum wage.
30728 euro a year.

I work 39 hour weeks (8.30-5:15 M-F) and I've been asked once to wait on late one evening. Very little stress.

I would need to be on 80k+ for that other posters job to be on the same hourly wage I'm on now.

14-09-2017 11:12am

Caliden wrote: »

Tell her to look at working in the central bank. It's the holy grail for accountants. .............

Despite her qualifications and experience I don't think she's very good at it tbh

dr.fuzzenstein · 14-09-2017 11:23am

myshirt wrote: »

We still have this per hour mentality which stems from the public service. A per hour rate is suitable for a less developed economy, less complex work, unskilled, minimum wage, or manufacturing led for example. There used to also be a piece rate if you recall, where you would get paid per unit you produced.

The per hour rate is not at all suitable now. Op you should work a minimum of 39 hours excluding breaks, but overall I would expect you to average out at anything from 42 to 48.

In my profession, it is not uncommon for people to work every second Saturday unpaid, and a few odd half day Sundays. Other than that, normal hours are 8.00 or 8.30ish to 7 or 8 that night with two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute break, usually lunch al desco. Get rid of this civil service mentality, it is for a different age.

That sounds like an incredibly badly organised, chaotic company to work for.
And I bet they pay sh*t as well. And when bad organisation, ridiculous workloads and bad pay are present, bad treatment is usually par of the course and thrown in for free by the bosses/owners.
The only aim of such companies is to suck people in, exploit them, make as much money on their backs as possible and when they find out that scuttling the ship and burning all employees, cutsomers and contractors is the more lucrative option, they will do that in a heartbeat.
I've been in that situation and I took a paycut of nearly 7k to get out.
And I was right, company had been building up another factory on the quiet, declared bancrupcy (which was a total hoax because they simply started producing somewhere else immediately) and they burnt everyone in the process.

What we need to get rid of is this dodgy business attitude of hiring as little staff as possible, working them to the bone, overselling the resources and when it all threatens to collapse pulling the plug, but not before siphoning off vast sums of money by basically robbing employees, customers, contractors and suppliers.
The only one that wins is the cowboy owner and his bank account in the Caymans.

As for me, where I work we clock in and out electronically. The hours we do are recorded. It's IT, so sometimes the proverbial hits the fan and it takes many hours to put right. Then you will sit here till 11 pm. So the next day (or when it's quiet), I simply come in later or go earlier. We do not have a set worktime, more a flexible frame of when we should be here. So one day I could come in at 9 and others I might go at 3. As long as the hours are there and the work gets done, it's all good.
That is the future. Not this "be at your desk 9 to 5 and if you're a minute late the boss will chew your ear" nonsense.
BTW, I also don't get paid overtime, but in the end it all works out.

Gone Drinking · 14-09-2017 11:30am

McGaggs wrote: »

I'd be annoyed at the people in charge who didn't have enough staff to complete the task in time.

So if a delivery company has 10 vans and 10 drivers which for most of the time was fine, however two days a month they had more to deliver, you would expect them to buy another van and hire another person? You'd be complaining about the delivery charge then, because that would need to go up to cover it.

Or the other option: The company ask two drivers can they do an extra hour or two, to make sure they get all their deliveries done thus helping the customer/the company. One driver says no, the other driver agrees.

The a new position comes up in the company a year down the line. Which of those guys is going to be considered a better option? The guy who does right by the customer or the guy who's about getting out on time?

What about if you're waiting on a bus or train and it never arrives? See here: http://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/luas-driver-refused-operate-tram-13553744

I think some of the attitudes here are a bit laughable. Maybe its a lack of understanding of business or just a lack of ambition.

noel100 · 14-09-2017 11:34am

I get paid more than 60k
With the compressed work week i work overtime every week, i get 1.5hrs for day time rate of overtime and 2hrs for night time rate of overtime.
I get all the other benefits vhi pension 5weeks holidays etc.
I wouldnt take a job if overtime wasnt paid.

14-09-2017 11:39am

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That sounds like an incredibly badly organised, chaotic company to work for............

Sounds like KPMG, PWC or a wannabe version of them to me

Can I refuse to do overtime?

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