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Can I refuse to do overtime?

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    #62
    heroics
    Registered Users Posts: 1,878 ✭✭✭heroics


    Gone Drinking wrote: »
    So if a delivery company has 10 vans and 10 drivers which for most of the time was fine, however two days a month they had more to deliver, you would expect them to buy another van and hire another person? You'd be complaining about the delivery charge then, because that would need to go up to cover it.

    Or the other option: The company ask two drivers can they do an extra hour or two, to make sure they get all their deliveries done thus helping the customer/the company. One driver says no, the other driver agrees.

    The a new position comes up in the company a year down the line. Which of those guys is going to be considered a better option? The guy who does right by the customer or the guy who's about getting out on time?

    What about if you're waiting on a bus or train and it never arrives? See here: http://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/luas-driver-refused-operate-tram-13553744

    I think some of the attitudes here are a bit laughable. Maybe its a lack of understanding of business or just a lack of ambition.

    Or maybe just pay the driver for the OT and then most people don't have problem with it. From what I can see most people here are not arguing against overtime just unpaid OT.


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    #63
    Gone Drinking
    Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭Gone Drinking


    noel100 wrote: »
    I get paid more than 60k
    With the compressed work week i work overtime every week, i get 1.5hrs for day time rate of overtime and 2hrs for night time rate of overtime.
    I get all the other benefits vhi pension 5weeks holidays etc.
    I wouldnt take a job if overtime wasnt paid.

    It comes down to your job and the type of work you do. It sounds like you might work in the pharmaceutical industry, a skilled process technician maybe?

    In my job, customer relationships are very important. I couldn't let someone down because I finish at 5 and my boss doesn't pay overtime. If I did that I'd have no relationship with my customers, they would leave and I would lose my job. I would never be expected to work the 11 hour days mentioned earlier but that person could be doing that so they overachieve their targets and earn much more.

    My job though offers other benefits on top of good salary/bonus/paid leave/medical. I can work from anywhere in the world for example..

    It's swings and roundabouts but I know that I certainly wouldn't be where I am without putting in extra hours free of charge over the years. In my line of work at least, that sort of commitment goes a long way.


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    #64
    Hollister11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Hollister11


    My dad is salaried. He's construction management.

    The owner of the company ensures that every employee reports what overtime they work, so they get paid for it. Salaried or not.


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    #65
    callaway92
    Registered Users Posts: 14,462 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    myshirt wrote: »
    We still have this per hour mentality which stems from the public service. A per hour rate is suitable for a less developed economy, less complex work, unskilled, minimum wage, or manufacturing led for example. There used to also be a piece rate if you recall, where you would get paid per unit you produced.

    The per hour rate is not at all suitable now. Op you should work a minimum of 39 hours excluding breaks, but overall I would expect you to average out at anything from 42 to 48.

    In my profession, it is not uncommon for people to work every second Saturday unpaid, and a few odd half day Sundays. Other than that, normal hours are 8.00 or 8.30ish to 7 or 8 that night with two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute break, usually lunch al desco. Get rid of this civil service mentality, it is for a different age.

    Pathetic way of looking at things


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    #66
    noel100
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭noel100


    Gone Drinking wrote: »
    noel100 wrote: »
    I get paid more than 60k
    With the compressed work week i work overtime every week, i get 1.5hrs for day time rate of overtime and 2hrs for night time rate of overtime.
    I get all the other benefits vhi pension 5weeks holidays etc.
    I wouldnt take a job if overtime wasnt paid.

    It comes down to your job and the type of work you do. It sounds like you might work in the pharmaceutical industry, a skilled process technician maybe?

    In my job, customer relationships are very important. I couldn't let someone down because I finish at 5 and my boss doesn't pay overtime. If I did that I'd have no relationship with my customers, they would leave and I would lose my job. I would never be expected to work the 11 hour days mentioned earlier but that person could be doing that so they overachieve their targets and earn much more.

    My job though offers other benefits on top of good salary/bonus/paid leave/medical. I can work from anywhere in the world for example..

    It's swings and roundabouts but I know that I certainly wouldn't be where I am without putting in extra hours free of charge over the years. In my line of work at least, that sort of commitment goes a long way.

    I also worked salaried in medical test technician mon to fri and forced to work overtime in the evenings and weekends when they need to have sales for particular quarter or end.of year accounting.
    I still got paid over time.


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    #67
    Mango Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭Mango Joe


    myshirt wrote: »
    We still have this per hour mentality which stems from the public service. A per hour rate is suitable for a less developed economy, less complex work, unskilled, minimum wage, or manufacturing led for example. There used to also be a piece rate if you recall, where you would get paid per unit you produced.

    The per hour rate is not at all suitable now. Op you should work a minimum of 39 hours excluding breaks, but overall I would expect you to average out at anything from 42 to 48.

    In my profession, it is not uncommon for people to work every second Saturday unpaid, and a few odd half day Sundays. Other than that, normal hours are 8.00 or 8.30ish to 7 or 8 that night with two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute break, usually lunch al desco. Get rid of this civil service mentality, it is for a different age.

    That's ridiculous - Why don't you sleep under your desk and fit in an extra few hours at work?????

    Maybe you could enjoy a sport or hobby that lends itself to happening in the work canteen???

    Do these drones you speak of have kids, friends, hobbies, families, lives?????

    - Ironically if you died there your Company would simply scrape your corpse off the floor and haul in the next dope in your place without a care in the world.....


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    #68
    TallGlass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭TallGlass


    I'm salaried and I make it my business to get out the door for when I am told.

    Would a company be fine with you showing up an hour or two late and expecting to be paid? No I don't think so.


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    #69
    _Puma_
    Registered Users Posts: 972 ✭✭✭_Puma_


    myshirt wrote: »
    We still have this per hour mentality which stems from the public service. A per hour rate is suitable for a less developed economy, less complex work, unskilled, minimum wage, or manufacturing led for example. There used to also be a piece rate if you recall, where you would get paid per unit you produced.

    The per hour rate is not at all suitable now. Op you should work a minimum of 39 hours excluding breaks, but overall I would expect you to average out at anything from 42 to 48.

    In my profession, it is not uncommon for people to work every second Saturday unpaid, and a few odd half day Sundays. Other than that, normal hours are 8.00 or 8.30ish to 7 or 8 that night with two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute break, usually lunch al desco. Get rid of this civil service mentality, it is for a different age.

    Truly pathetic reflection of the of the toxic corporate work culture taking hold in this country.


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    #70
    TallGlass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭TallGlass


    Gravelly wrote: »
    On a side note, if we're looking to move someone up to management, we will usually give them a project to work on that would test them a bit. This might involve working longer than they're used to, and with more responsibility. It would be a red flag straight away if their first concern was overtime. Not saying this is the case with you, but an employee whose chief concern is overtime is probably never going to be management material - and that's fine, lots of people would rather not have that stress and responsibility anyway.

    Has it ever occurred to you, that it might be a 'red flag' to them also that if your expecting these type of things to be done for free now. What next down the line?


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    #71
    TallGlass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭TallGlass


    Gone Drinking wrote: »
    This really depends on your position and type of work I guess but for a lot of professional or salary positions, its a necessary evil..

    All my jobs have been salary and the only time I got paid overtime was when I would have to do on call work. I'm not always doing unpaid overtime, but I will when things need to get finished, or someone is waiting on me for something. Or just to get my job done well.

    What about taking on projects or work that might fall slightly outside your job scope, in the hope of progressing yourself further in the company? How can you do that without working a bit of unpaid overtime? How does anyone get further up in their profession not doing that.. I see a lot of lads in my work who have the "I'm here from 9-5" mindset and they're still doing the same crap they started doing 5 years previous where as others have moved into better paid positions up the ladder.

    Hold on here for a moment, if your looking for managers to hire within a role, why are you not looking at the people who can manage to get there work done within the allotted hours of 9-5. Surely to become a manager, oneself must know how to manage themselves. Why would you want to hire a manager, whos own time keeping has them running over the clock. You then expecting this same person to deliver projects or tasks on time? Sounds like you just want a 'yes man' for the role.
    I'd also like to know how those who don't believe in unpaid overtime would feel if they were waiting on a service or product, but didn't get it because the person helping them downed tools at 5pm on the dot because they don't get paid overtime.

    Again, as above, how would you feel if someone was coming to work 1/2 hours later than expected and expecting to be paid for it? Or what if it was the same person who done the unpaid O/T doing it.


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    #72
    TallGlass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭TallGlass


    myshirt wrote: »
    We still have this per hour mentality which stems from the public service. A per hour rate is suitable for a less developed economy, less complex work, unskilled, minimum wage, or manufacturing led for example. There used to also be a piece rate if you recall, where you would get paid per unit you produced.

    The per hour rate is not at all suitable now. Op you should work a minimum of 39 hours excluding breaks, but overall I would expect you to average out at anything from 42 to 48.

    In my profession, it is not uncommon for people to work every second Saturday unpaid, and a few odd half day Sundays. Other than that, normal hours are 8.00 or 8.30ish to 7 or 8 that night with two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute break, usually lunch al desco. Get rid of this civil service mentality, it is for a different age.

    I tell you something, if I ever had unfortunate experience to come into such a role, I would be down to the local Social Welfare office within the hour and signing on. No way would I be working under them conditions.


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    #73
    Hollister11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Hollister11


    TallGlass wrote: »
    I tell you something, if I ever had unfortunate experience to come into such a role, I would be down to the local Social Welfare office within the hour and signing on. No way would I be working under them conditions.

    I'd rather do them hours and look for a new job, then be on the dole.


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    #74
    testaccount123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭testaccount123


    Listen lads, every business has these jobsworths who will work all hours thinking they will be promoted to CEO on the back of it. Let them at it while you (and management) maintain a proper work-life balance. Nobody values people who work for nothing, they are going nowhere and are there to be taken advantage of.


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    #75
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,750 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    myshirt wrote: »
    We still have this per hour mentality which stems from the public service. A per hour rate is suitable for a less developed economy, less complex work, unskilled, minimum wage, or manufacturing led for example. There used to also be a piece rate if you recall, where you would get paid per unit you produced.

    The per hour rate is not at all suitable now. Op you should work a minimum of 39 hours excluding breaks, but overall I would expect you to average out at anything from 42 to 48.

    In my profession, it is not uncommon for people to work every second Saturday unpaid, and a few odd half day Sundays. Other than that, normal hours are 8.00 or 8.30ish to 7 or 8 that night with two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute break, usually lunch al desco. Get rid of this civil service mentality, it is for a different age.


    Where the hell do you work. Either your place is understaffed, they take on too many contracts or the workers are extremely inefficient and your 7 to 8 work is mostly at the water cooler. I certainly hope you get paid enough as nothing would force me to work there and by the sound of this thread even those who say unpaid overtime is common would not work your hours.

    I agree that a certain amount of unpaid overtime is expected in some jobs be it to finish a contract get accounts do etc but would say they are compensated in other way like at Christmas or time off when things are quieter. If a company is expecting you to do very regular unpaid overtime (Not talking about staying late for 20 mins sometimes) they are trying to get the most out of the staff they have without having to hire someone else which is what is needed

    Overtime should be that working overtime when needed. It should not be regular occurance expected to work. That should be in your contract as your regular hours and paid.


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    #76
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,750 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Hollister11 wrote: »
    I'd rather do them hours and look for a new job, then be on the dole.

    Ya I be the same I be looking for a new job pronto but still work until I get it


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    #77
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    callaway92 wrote: »
    Pathetic way of looking at things

    Yes, I cannot believe what I see with the previous posts.

    Salary and all the other benefits is payment for working for certain amount of hours. Typically 39hr/week. And while I am prepared to occasionally work overtime in the extremely busy periods or to cover for some emergencies, overtime on a regular basis is absolutely unacceptable. If the employer expects me to work 50hr/week, that 50hr/week should be in contract both parties agree on.


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    #78
    Gone Drinking
    Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭Gone Drinking


    TallGlass wrote: »
    Hold on here for a moment, if your looking for managers to hire within a role, why are you not looking at the people who can manage to get there work done within the allotted hours of 9-5. Surely to become a manager, oneself must know how to manage themselves. Why would you want to hire a manager, whos own time keeping has them running over the clock. You then expecting this same person to deliver projects or tasks on time? Sounds like you just want a 'yes man' for the role.

    You missed the point where I said taking on extra work or projects to ultimately help you succeed further down the line may require you to work past your allotted hours. The other scenario can be that a customer requests your assistance at 7pm, which is outside of your working day.. I can't say no if its the only time that suits them (in my position, at least)

    What if you dropped your car to a mechanic, most don't get paid overtime in my experience. He thought he would have your car ready that evening but due to issues out of his control (lets say part delivery was delayed!), he wouldn't get the work done till 6:00pm, 1 hour after his day finishes.

    I've seen this very scenario happen. The mechanic in question isn't going to push the suppliers fcuk up down to you because it'll leave you with a bad taste in your mouth and could result in the loss of repeat business. He knows you need your car first thing..

    You might think its unfair, but in some jobs there's no overtime. I wouldn't hire someone if they told me they were walking at 5pm in the scenario above.


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    #79
    testicles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,198 ✭✭✭testicles


    This post has been deleted.


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    #80
    testaccount123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭testaccount123


    Gone Drinking wrote: »
    You missed the point where I said taking on extra work or projects to ultimately help you succeed further down the line may require you to work past your allotted hours. The other scenario can be that a customer requests your assistance at 7pm, which is outside of your working day.. I can't say no if its the only time that suits them (in my position, at least)

    What if you dropped your car to a mechanic, most don't get paid overtime in my experience. He thought he would have your car ready that evening but due to issues out of his control (lets say part delivery was delayed!), he wouldn't get the work done till 6:00pm, 1 hour after his day finishes.

    I've seen this very scenario happen. The mechanic in question isn't going to push the suppliers fcuk up down to you because it'll leave you with a bad taste in your mouth and could result in the loss of repeat business. He knows you need your car first thing..

    You might think its unfair, but in some jobs there's no overtime. I wouldn't hire someone if they told me they were walking at 5pm in the scenario above.

    I suspect the amount of unpaid overtime required in your organisation is due to the inability to attract decent staff capable of delivering the work in normal timeframes due to a toxic work ethos.

    Decent staff have their pick of where they work, they dont work somewhere they are permanently on-call for free.

    I feel a bit sorry for some on this thread tbh.


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    #81
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Gone Drinking wrote: »
    I've seen this very scenario happen. The mechanic in question isn't going to push the suppliers fcuk up down to you because it'll leave you with a bad taste in your mouth and could result in the loss of repeat business. He knows you need your car first thing.

    But in this case it is the business OWNER that typically stays to complete the job.


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    #82
    Gone Drinking
    Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭Gone Drinking


    grogi wrote: »
    But in this case it is the business OWNER that typically stays to complete the job.

    No, this person wasn't the business owner. This was a real scenario. They just know that repeat business keeps them in a job also.


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    #83
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,750 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    testaccount123 wrote: »
    I suspect the amount of unpaid overtime required in your organisation is due to the inability to attract decent staff due to a toxic work ethos.

    Decent staff have their pick of where they work, they dont work somewhere they are permanently on-call for free.

    I feel a bit sorry for some on this thread tbh.

    I am not so sure if its toxic work environments or ethos but I do agree that excessive overtime is an inability to hire new workers be it because they are just not there with the qualification or they want to hire as few people as possible (which now I think about it could be a toxic work ethos)


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    #84
    noel100
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭noel100


    I worked for a company where a female employee used to work 1 to 3hrs extra every day but she was always late in the morning coming in 5 to 10minutes late.
    When it came to mid year review she got slated for her time keeping and the 10-15hrs a week she put in unpaid made no diference.
    After the review she stopped working the extra hrs and came in on time.
    So if you are not going to be given flexibility why would you do unpaid over time.


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    #85
    testaccount123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭testaccount123


    testicles wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Planned IT maintenance is routinely carried out during working hours and has been for a very long time now. People in IT dont work planned overtime for free.

    If you are working somewhere with no investment in HA systems which can be patched and maintained on a rolling basis and no investment in paying staff properly you should be working somewhere else. Its an employees market and has been for over two decades.


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    #86
    Gone Drinking
    Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭Gone Drinking


    testaccount123 wrote: »
    I suspect the amount of unpaid overtime required in your organisation is due to the inability to attract decent staff capable of delivering the work in normal timeframes due to a toxic work ethos.

    Decent staff have their pick of where they work, they dont work somewhere they are permanently on-call for free.

    I feel a bit sorry for some on this thread tbh.

    I'm not doing 60 hours a week, i'm talking about a few hours a month. I think you're confusing me with the other guy, talking about working weekends which I agree is excessive but they might be doing it to get more sales propositions done and therefore will earn from it but isn't a guarantee. I'm just speculating.

    The consulting I do can't always be done in "normal time frames", as some customers are 24/7 operations, ie, hospitals. I know my hours and I could easily tell a customer to piss off if they were looking for advice at 7pm, but I wouldn't do it. It wouldn't be good for them, for me or the organisation I work for. If I was doing this all the time, yeah, i would expect it but I'm not going to barge into the office the next day demanding overtime.

    I have my pick of where I work because of my work ethic. I think some people here are looking at things too black and white, because that's what its like in their position.


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    #87
    testaccount123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭testaccount123


    martingriff wrote: »
    I am not so sure if its toxic work environments or ethos but I do agree that excessive overtime is an inability to hire new workers be it because they are just not there with the qualification or they want to hire as few people as possible (which now I think about it could be a toxic work ethos)

    Yeah thats what I was driving at.

    Some of these middle management types seem to see the modern workplace as some kind of 'Upstairs Downstairs' scenario with servants curtsying to their masters and betters and desperately trying to hold on to employment lest they starve.

    The reality is that businesses here are starved of talent, if you are any good you dont need to give away your time for nothing and if you do it means you are seen as being not very good.


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    #88
    testaccount123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭testaccount123


    Gone Drinking wrote: »
    I'm not doing 60 hours a week, i'm talking about a few hours a month.

    Thats perfectly fine. Im talking about people who routinely work overtime for free.

    I occasionally do extra hours where required but also take hours off when and where I require them. This seems to be the norm these days, at least in my experience. If working extra hours became excessive I'd simply move.


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    #89
    contrary_devil
    Registered Users Posts: 204 ✭✭contrary_devil


    I have great interest in this debate as earlier this week I attended an interview for a position in logistics which will be a salaried one. At the interview I was asked how would I react if I had to work outside of normal hours if needed and of course I said it would be ok as every job has times when this happens. There was no mention of overtime payment. The only thing that was asked was regards what my salary expectations were and I gave a figure that I thought would be reasonable for the type of work.
    Most previous jobs I have had were paid hourly, some with overtime at a flat rate and some with a premium for overtime so this salary lark is completely alien to me.
    As others have said I wouldn't mind a half hour or an hour here and there to finish something but if it was to be a few hours per week or the last week of the month regularly had extra hours to be worked I would be expecting payment or TOIL or a higher salary to compensate.
    I have to say that I am astounded by some of the suggestions put forward by some posters regarding the hours worked in salaried professional positions.


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    #90
    Doniekp
    Registered Users Posts: 77 ✭✭Doniekp


    myshirt wrote: »
    We still have this per hour mentality which stems from the public service. A per hour rate is suitable for a less developed economy, less complex work, unskilled, minimum wage, or manufacturing led for example. There used to also be a piece rate if you recall, where you would get paid per unit you produced.

    The per hour rate is not at all suitable now. Op you should work a minimum of 39 hours excluding breaks, but overall I would expect you to average out at anything from 42 to 48.

    In my profession, it is not uncommon for people to work every second Saturday unpaid, and a few odd half day Sundays. Other than that, normal hours are 8.00 or 8.30ish to 7 or 8 that night with two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute break, usually lunch al desco. Get rid of this civil service mentality, it is for a different age.

    They would want to pay a very large salary to be expected to 10/12 hr days, Saturdays and odd Sundays. What about work life balance? You wouldn't want to partner or kids in that job!


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    #91
    shaunr68
    Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭shaunr68


    Gone Drinking wrote: »
    No, this person wasn't the business owner. This was a real scenario. They just know that repeat business keeps them in a job also.
    In this scenario, retaining your best, more experienced and expert mechanics by providing them with decent terms and conditions, and rewarding them appropriately for their dedication and conscientiousness is of far more consequence to the sustainability of the business than saving a few quid in overtime pay.


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