Anti-vaxxers

Fuddyduddy

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Forcing people with auto-immune diseases who cannot be vaccinated to be put at risk due to other people deciding not to vaccinate their children not only violates their bodily integrity - it puts their lives at serious risk.

1/ I was being facetious. I don't disagree with vaccinations. I was highlighting that "bodily autonomy" isn't a rational argument when greater risks are at stake.

2/ They aren't being forced to be put at risk, they are already at risk by virtue of having an innate auto-immune disease.

But I agree with your sentiment.

batgoat

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Forcing people with auto-immune diseases who cannot be vaccinated to be put at risk due to other people deciding not to vaccinate their children not only violates their bodily integrity - it puts their lives at serious risk.

Yep I'm sort of, of the opinion that they shouldn't be allowed in creches etc. Just too dangerous tbh.

Noo

Martina1991 wrote: »

It is possible your child has regressive autism. Those effected can have a normal development until a certain age which suddenly regresses. Just because their vaccinations occurred around this time does not mean it was the cause. There is no scientific definitive proof that vaccines cause autism.

You met a man who was collecting for a charity, more than likely a parent of an autistic child himself. He definitely cannot definitively say vaccines cause autism.

I am sorry for your troubles of having a child who needs extra care and support, I really am.
But when it comes to determining causes, tests and cures for conditions we have to rely on medical science and those "clip boards with a few numbers on it" because they are far more accurate than beliefs and feelings.

I was listening to a radio talk show discussing this. A mother of 3 autistic children rang in to support vaccinations. All 3 of her kids were vaccinated. For the first two kids they noticed something might be amiss after the time they would've been getting their shots, both kids eventually diagnosed with autism. For the third child, because she was so familiar with autism she was able to see the same traits in third child before they got to the usual diagnosis age, before the kid got vaccinated.

Anthracite

Gonad wrote: »

We got him vaccinated and he didn’t like the needle one bit. He screamed and got all cranky and never seemed to recover . He didn’t try talk again until about 14 months after that . I knew something wasn’t right and so did herself but we didn’t want to think we had done something that had harmed him. It was the elephant in the room. My wife started researching the vaccines and was convinced something was going on . So many stories of people all having had the same issues after vaccine .

1. Few kids like needles.

2. How many stories do you hear of kids having no issues after vaccination? I'm guessing none?

Capt'n Midnight

BAM! uhavechlamydia wrote: »

I have a family member who is not going to vaccinate her newborn as she has been reading "informed" online articles about aluminium being used as an adjuvant...and it's harmful effects on babies.
I'm loathe to look at any of the information she's linked me.... but surely it's up there with the vaccines cause autism theory.... aluminium has been used for 80 years now and I'm sure I've not heard any horror stories?

If you exclude oxygen and silicon (sand, sandstone) then 30% of the earth's crust (ie. soil, rocks etc.) is Aluminium.


Adjuvants boost the immune response so less vaccine is needed.


This is a bad analogy but
It's like when you put a "radiation shield" on a mobile phone.
The phone boosts it's signal to bypass the shield.
So you get a bigger response by using something inert.



Or of course if we eradicated things like Polio then those vaccines would never be needed again.

BAM! uhavechlamydia

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If you exclude oxygen and silicon (sand, sandstone) then 30% of the earth's crust (ie. soil, rocks etc.) is Aluminium.


Adjuvants boost the immune response so less vaccine is needed.


This is a bad analogy but
It's like when you put a "radiation shield" on a mobile phone.
The phone boosts it's signal to bypass the shield.
So you get a bigger response by using something inert.



Or of course if we eradicated things like Polio then those vaccines would never be needed again.

I understand all that... even told her that aluminium being an element is present in many foodstuffs... even bloody breast milk.... but she's not having it...I do despair of people like this... think I'll have to just keep trying

Paddy Cow

Gonad wrote: »

Also just because the autism rates are the same in countries that don’t vaccinate doesn’t mean anything.

It means everything! If vaccines cause autism, then you would expect significantly lower rates in countries that don't have them. That there is no difference in autism levels in vaccinated vs unvaccinated populations shows there is no link between vaccines and autism.

Timberrrrrrrr

Paddy Cow wrote: »

It means everything! If vaccines cause autism, then you would expect significantly lower rates in countries that don't have them. That there is no difference in autism levels in vaccinated vs unvaccinated populations shows there is no link between vaccines and autism.

You may need to get the crayons out because consise, logical, intelligent replies like that won't get through to the anti lads/lasses.

Anthracite

Gonad wrote: »

Also just because the autism rates are the same in countries that don’t vaccinate doesn’t mean anything.

I missed this line somehow.

I guess the fact that there there are the same rates of heart disease in countries that don't have Daniel O'Donnell I them does not disprove my theory that Daniel O'Donnell is responsible for heart attacks.

Can you not see how stupid this is?

Fuddyduddy

Anthracite wrote: »

I missed this line somehow.

I guess the fact that there there are the same rates of heart disease in countries that don't have Daniel O'Donnell I them does not disprove my theory that Daniel O'Donnell is responsible for heart attacks.

Can you not see how stupid this is?

All you need to do is properly account for coviarates.

What were the rates of autism before and after the introduction of vaccinations in said countries?

How was autism diagnosed over the same period in those countries and did this affect the statistical outcomes?

Anthracite

Fuddyduddy wrote: »

All you need to do is properly account for coviarates.

Do you think that anti-vaxxers know or care about covariates? Isn't that just 'numbers on a flipboard' or whatever the poster said above to write off the scientific method?

Gonad

Anthracite wrote: »

I missed this line somehow.

I guess the fact that there there are the same rates of heart disease in countries that don't have Daniel O'Donnell I them does not disprove my theory that Daniel O'Donnell is responsible for heart attacks.

Can you not see how stupid this is?

I said I would not reply again but I have to because you don’t seem to be able to read my posts fully . If you did you would see I did not say i believed vaccines were the only reason these symptoms occur . I suggested that whatever is in these vaccines were certainly causing the symptoms in many kids and the link I shared previously is proof that this can happen . Also the millions of parents around world that are in the same boat . Just because millions of kids got these symptoms when getting vaccine and billions didn’t does that mean the millions of people are wrong ?

Also can you explain why trillions have been paid out in vaccine court if there was nothing causing any issues ?

Look as I said previously if you cannot see something sinister can occur after vaccination you are deluded

Igotadose

Gonad wrote: »

Also can you explain why trillions have been paid out in vaccine court if there was nothing causing any issues ?

The US has paid out $4bn since 2006.

Where did you get trillions?
https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/hrsa/vaccine-compensation/data/monthly-stats-january-2019.pdf

Here's a handy quote from that site: "Approximately 70 percent of all compensation awarded by the VICP comes as result of a
negotiated settlement between the parties in which HHS has not concluded, based upon review
of the evidence, that the alleged vaccine(s) caused the alleged injury."

Also, that data's been modified to include influenza vaccine cases, which are more than half overall (it was added recently going back to 2006. The data are otherwise from 1988 till now.)

This link: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/vaccine-court-myths-nvicp-facts/#Vaccine_court_myths_huge_payouts

does some math around # of doses versus claims, showing it's about 1 dose per million that results in a compensable claim.

Dohnjoe

Gonad wrote: »

I said I would not reply again but I have to because you don’t seem to be able to read my posts fully . If you did you would see I did not say i believed vaccines were the only reason these symptoms occur . I suggested that whatever is in these vaccines were certainly causing the symptoms in many kids and the link I shared previously is proof that this can happen . Also the millions of parents around world that are in the same boat . Just because millions of kids got these symptoms when getting vaccine and billions didn’t does that mean the millions of people are wrong ?

Also can you explain why trillions have been paid out in vaccine court if there was nothing causing any issues ?

Look as I said previously if you cannot see something sinister can occur after vaccination you are deluded

Any links between vaccines and autism have been disproven.

Better monitoring and diagnosis of the disorder are the main reason for it's rate of increase.

ancapailldorcha

Gonad wrote: »

Look as I said previously if you cannot see something sinister can occur after vaccination you are deluded

In fairness, it would be easy to believe if there was evidence.

PhoneMain

Gonad wrote: »

and the link I shared previously is proof that this can happen .

Maybe I'm missing something here but you haven't provided a link to any proof? A link to a youtube video but no peer reviewed, published research.

We all could make youtube videos, spruce them up, put fancy graphics on it and use buzzwords to explain them. Doesn't mean any of it is acceptable evidence. I could make an expensive, sophisticated video telling you that the cow did infact jump over the moon, doesn't mean it actually happened.

Anthracite

Gonad wrote: »

Look as I said previously if you cannot see something sinister can occur after vaccination you are deluded

Gotcha - me and science are deluded. You and a bunch of chemtrailers can see the truth.

Understood.

:rolleyes:

Guy:Incognito

Gonad wrote: »

I said I would not reply again but I have to because you don’t seem to be able to read my posts fully . If you did you would see I did not say i believed vaccines were the only reason these symptoms occur . I suggested that whatever is in these vaccines were certainly causing the symptoms in many kids and the link I shared previously is proof that this can happen . Also the millions of parents around world that are in the same boat . Just because millions of kids got these symptoms when getting vaccine and billions didn’t does that mean the millions of people are wrong ?

Also can you explain why trillions have been paid out in vaccine court if there was nothing causing any issues ?

Look as I said previously if you cannot see something sinister can occur after vaccination you are deluded

Do you (or any of you other anti vaxxers reading , hi Graces) take any tablets , prescription or otherwise or take any advice from anyone involved in actual medicine? Surely if they are poisoning your kids by putting autism in the mmr then they'd be putting stuff in all medicines? I'd have thought over the counter stuff would be the most obvious way to give stuff to " the sheeple" , no? Cough bottles must cause coughs to ensure a steady income.

Maybe its condoms that actually make you pregnant? Wake up people.

Martina1991

Gonad wrote:

I suggested that whatever is in these vaccines were certainly causing the symptoms in many kids and the link I shared previously is proof that this can happen . Also the millions of parents around world that are in the same boat . Just because millions of kids got these symptoms when getting vaccine and billions didn’t does that mean the millions of people are wrong ?

Except you cannot say that for certain, because you have no proof.

I dunno where you're getting millions and billions but since the vast vast vast majority of vaccianted people dont have autism then that is highly suggestive vaccines have nothing to do with it.

GreeBo

Martina1991 wrote: »

Except you cannot say that for certain, because you have no proof.

I dunno where you're getting millions and billions but since the vast vast vast majority of vaccianted people dont have autism then that is highly suggestive vaccines have nothing to do with it.

One could even argue that vaccinations are 99% successful at preventing autism.

If one didn't understand science, stats, causation vs correlation and all that boring stuff.

Capt'n Midnight

Looks like that measles suppresses your immune system for a few years.

Which means people who get it and fully recover from it are more likely to die from other diseases shortly afterwards.

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/348/6235/694.full/694.abstract

nonmeasles infectious disease mortality in high-income countries is tightly coupled to measles incidence

...
The introduction of mass measles vaccination has reduced childhood mortality by 30 to 50% in resource-poor countries

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Maybe its condoms that actually make you pregnant? Wake up people.

Reminds me of the stickers found all over phone boxes etc just after the liberalisation of the sale of condoms saying that they offered no protection from HIV.

In that case they were from a catolic group the knights of Columbus in the U.S. and brought over here by similar lunatic based organisations.
The similarities with anti vac is amazing.

waxmoth

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Looks like that measles suppresses your immune system for a few years.

Which means people who get it and fully recover from it are more likely to die from other diseases shortly afterwards.

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/348/6235/694.full/694.abstract

The graphs in the paper for both measles cases and non measles mortality were both in rapid and corresponding decline years prior to the introduction of MMR. Nutrition/living standards were improving incrementally post WWII and affect immunity. http://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/348/6235/694/F1.large.jpg

From the paper:

The correspondence between our results and previous epidemiological data by Aaby et al. (31) should be viewed with the caveat that the increased relative risk of mortality after intensive measles exposure was measured in children exposed before 6 months of age, not all of whom developed features of clinical measles infections. Other studies (12, 38, 39) have failed to detect long-term immunologic sequelae of measles.

Orion

Encephalopathy wrote: »

"The Highwire" on YouTube by bigtree backs up nearly everything he says using the government's own websites, CDC, hss, vears and so on, can see why you wouldn't like it.

1. Vaers is not a causative source. Anything that happens after vaccination gets put in there. if someone is walking home after getting vaccinated and gets hit by lightning that would be an entry. One study found that only 3% of entries in VAERS were actually adverse reactions to vaccines - and most of them were previously unknown allergies.

Encephalopathy wrote: »

What bigtree and RFK are trying to do deserves a medal, anybody who injects that stuff into their children or themselves should be behind them, mindboggling that yous don't want that.

Bigtree is a fraud. And RFK is an idiot. They should be charged for the death of every child whose parents believed their lies.

Encephalopathy wrote: »

At the end of the day the double blind placebo would put the whole autism link to vaccines to bed, pharma knows this, anybody with common sense knows this, their reason for not doing it is pathetic, brainwashed.

Vaccines do not cause autism. It has been put to bed. Only people like you who refuse to believe the science still spout that dangerous nonsense.

Answer me this. If antivaxxers are so smart how come there's such a huge overlap with them and climate change deniers and urmagurd chemtrail morons?

Orion

Encephalopathy wrote: »

your theory is wrong, anti vaxxers were once pro vaxxers, who unfortunately learnt the hard way.

No. They were people who did the right thing and now blame something innocent for something unrelated. I think it's a bit disgusting that you would prefer to have a paralysed child than the autistic one you say you have.

Orion

batgoat wrote: »

I honestly think they would start blaming it on something else. Eg the government is poisoning people with fluoride or chemtrails.

They do that too. As I mentioned in an earlier post there is a huge overlap between:

• Antivaxxers
• Urmagurd chemtrail morons
• Climate change deniers

and should have added:

• MAGA Trumpites
• Flouride clowns
• Gemma supporters
• and for quite a lot in Ireland - Gilroy-style yellow vests.

Somedaythefire

Gonad wrote: »

Look as I said previously if you cannot see something sinister can occur after vaccination you are deluded

Isn't this, in the lack of any evidence, the same as saying there must be something sinister about oxygen, because everyone who breathes it in, eventually dies?

Orion

Fuddyduddy wrote: »

Forcing vaccinations on people violates their bodily autonomy.

Not getting your kids vaccinated kills people - not just your kids. If you don't want to vaccinate fine - your choice. But you should not be allowed put your kid in a public school, a creche, bring them to hospital, doctor's surgeries or near anybody with a lowered immune system.

Orion

Gonad wrote: »

Also just because the autism rates are the same in countries that don’t vaccinate doesn’t mean anything.

Evidence doesn't matter. The refrain of the antivaxxer.

Orion

DubInMeath wrote: »

In that case they were from a catolic group the knights of Columbus in the U.S. and brought over here by similar lunatic based organisations.
The similarities with anti vac is amazing.

You mean the Knight of St. Columbanus that founded the pro-life amendment campaign here in 1982? the ones that make Opus Dei look like atheists? Those ones. :pac: