Anti-vaxxers

Capt'n Midnight · 03-02-2019 2:30am

bluewolf wrote: »

Yeah smallpox scars and iron lungs and death would definitely be better than autism

like what
are we seriously all going to be subjected to a worldwide epidemic because of some cranks getting internet access

we are being subjected to a worldwide epidemic of measles.

Eradicated from the Americas and almost from Europe. But it's making a comeback.

Polio should be gone by now.
Autism is a mild personality disorder compared to Polio.
Polio means you can go from being a healty fit adult to wheelchair bound for the rest of your life in a few hours.

I have a theory that a lot of the anti-vaxx crowd are scared of the hassle of raising an autistic child and NOTHING ELSE MATTERS :mad::mad::mad:
Pure selfishness.

Smart Bug · 03-02-2019 3:28am

Jesus this is still going on? Here’s 3 bloody obvious why there appears to be more children on the autistic spectrum these days:

1. Diagnostic criteria and our understanding of the condition have improved, therefore children are diagnosed now that would have been left undiagnosed in years past, and;

2. Autistic children have poor muscle tone and would (historically) have had a poorer chance of surviving birth. Medical science has improved to the point that more of these children survive, therefore autism figures increase, and;

3. People are having children later in life, which results in greater numbers of children with autism being born.

Go figure. I guess some dolts just need a grand conspiracy to believe in when reality is too mundane for them.

Encephalopathy · 03-02-2019 10:16am

mzungu wrote: »

To be honest, I won't be watching that link. It features Del Bigtree, the man that made the movie Vaxxed. The same movie that based its entire (false) narrative around the ramblings of an anti-vaccination activist (Brian Hooker) that had his spurious "study" redacted because he made things up out of thin air (a recurring theme with anti-vaccination activists).

"The Highwire" on YouTube by bigtree backs up nearly everything he says using the government's own websites, CDC, hss, vears and so on, can see why you wouldn't like it.

https://www.aimintegrativemedicine(DOT)com/aim-integrative-medicine-blog/why-kennedy-sued-the-government-over-vaccine-safety-won

What bigtree and RFK are trying to do deserves a medal, anybody who injects that stuff into their children or themselves should be behind them, mindboggling that yous don't want that.

At the end of the day the double blind placebo would put the whole autism link to vaccines to bed, pharma knows this, anybody with common sense knows this, their reason for not doing it is pathetic, brainwashed.

Encephalopathy · 03-02-2019 10:22am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Yeah, the pretense at moderation while using sick and dead children as pawns is convincing nobody I'm afraid.

Is there any chance of you bothering to make your point instead of dumping more of this intellectual diarrhoea on this thread or am I just asking too much?

Hardly using them as pawns, he's obviously referencing to vears.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih(DOT)gov/pubmed/26021988

79.4% of SIDs had vaccines in the same day they died.

Anecdotal anecdotal anecdotal, brush it under the carpet.

Martina1991 · 03-02-2019 10:43am

Encephalopathy wrote: »

Hardly using them as pawns, he's obviously referencing to vears.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih(DOT)gov/pubmed/26021988

79.4% of SIDs had vaccines in the same day they died.

Anecdotal anecdotal anecdotal, brush it under the carpet.

Even just from reading the abstract the conclusion was:
"No concerning pattern was noted among death reports submitted to VAERS during 1997-2013. The main causes of death were consistent with the most common causes of death in the US population."
They did not attribute those deaths solely to vaccinations.

Brian? · 03-02-2019 10:53am

Encephalopathy wrote: »

"The Highwire" on YouTube by bigtree backs up nearly everything he says using the government's own websites, CDC, hss, vears and so on, can see why you wouldn't like it.

https://www.aimintegrativemedicine(DOT)com/aim-integrative-medicine-blog/why-kennedy-sued-the-government-over-vaccine-safety-won

What bigtree and RFK are trying to do deserves a medal, anybody who injects that stuff into their children or themselves should be behind them, mindboggling that yous don't want that.

At the end of the day the double blind placebo would put the whole autism link to vaccines to bed, pharma knows this, anybody with common sense knows this, their reason for not doing it is pathetic, brainwashed.

It’s completely immoral to do a double blind placebo study on vaccines. Vaccines save millions of lives, in a double blind study your control group is now left open to infections that vaccines prevent.

Everyone knows such a study would provide extremely valuable data. Only someone who’s anti vaccines won’t see it as immoral to conduct such a study. Any doctor that involves themselves in such a study should lose their licence.

Let me ask you this: if vaccines do cause autism, aren’t they still worthwhile? They save millions of lives. I’d rather have a child on the spectrum than under the ground.

Anthracite · 03-02-2019 10:54am

Encephalopathy wrote: »

Hardly using them as pawns, he's obviously referencing to vears.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih(DOT)gov/pubmed/26021988

79.4% of SIDs had vaccines in the same day they died.

Anecdotal anecdotal anecdotal, brush it under the carpet.

I don't think you understood what you were reading here. It's probably not the best idea to waffle about common sense and then post some 'evidence' that you completely misunderstood.

Brian? · 03-02-2019 10:54am

Encephalopathy wrote: »

Hardly using them as pawns, he's obviously referencing to vears.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih(DOT)gov/pubmed/26021988

79.4% of SIDs had vaccines in the same day they died.

Anecdotal anecdotal anecdotal, brush it under the carpet.

That link doesn’t work. There is no way in hell that statistic is correct.

Encephalopathy · 03-02-2019 10:57am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Autism is a mild personality disorder compared to Polio.
Polio means you can go from being a healty fit adult to wheelchair bound for the rest of your life in a few hours.

God your so misinformed.
I have two children with ASD, one with aspergers and one with severe low functioning autism, she will need care for the rest of her life.
If i could swap her autism to her being paralyzed, I'd do it in a heartbeat, least then she would have the chance to become independent and most importantly have her own mind.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I have a theory that a lot of the anti-vaxx crowd are scared of the hassle of raising an autistic child and NOTHING ELSE MATTERS :mad::mad::mad:
Pure selfishness.

Well your theory is wrong, anti vaxxers were once pro vaxxers, who unfortunately learnt the hard way.

Martina1991 · 03-02-2019 11:01am

skepticalme wrote: »

Not so much gift of anti vaxers as vaccine failure, waning immunity and measles herd immunity myth.

The measles vaccine’s inadequacy doesn’t end there, however. It “cannot be administered to those who are immunocompromised, who have allergies to vaccine components, or who are pregnant [among other limitations, leaving] a large enough segment of the population susceptible and unprotected from measles such that cases will continue to occur.”

From that article you posted "between 2% and 10% don’t develop expected antibodies after receiving the recommended two shots. Because different people have different genetic makeups, the vaccine is simply a dud in many, failing to provide the protection they think they’ve acquired".

No vaccine is 100% effective for all recipients. Vaccinations are always dangerous for immunocompromised people, we know this already.
Two doses of MMR vaccine are 97% effective against measles and 88% effective against mumps. One dose of MMR vaccine is 93% effective against measles, 78% effective against mumps, and 97% effective against rubella.

The benefits far outweigh the risks when it comes to vaccination.

Igotadose · 03-02-2019 11:14am

skepticalme wrote: »

Where did you get that nugget of information? Its not even correct. Did you even bother to look at the data link in the cnn link you posted?

As for Atlanta, there were 3 family members, all recovered now. The fearmongering is unbelievable.

3 so far in Atlanta. 42 in WA state now.

CNN helpfully includes a spreadsheet of vaccine percentages for schoolchildren. I apologize, didn't look at it in advance of posting, was on the phone and mis-quoted what the Clark County medical examiner had said. The handy spreadsheet shows Clark county only third, in terms of 'exempted due to personal or religious reasons' unvaccinated schoolchildren.

Remove the exemptions and, obviously, the numbers unvaccinated will drop and overall immunity go up. Other states disallow them.

batgoat · 03-02-2019 11:21am

Encephalopathy wrote: »

God your so misinformed.
I have two children with ASD, one with aspergers and one with severe low functioning autism, she will need care for the rest of her life.
If i could swap her autism to her being paralyzed, I'd do it in a heartbeat, least then she would have the chance to become independent and most importantly have her own mind.

Well your theory is wrong, anti vaxxers were once pro vaxxers, who unfortunately learnt the hard way.

Thanks, I'm on the spectrum.(aspergers) I'm pretty glad that I'm not paralysed. I have a pretty high paying job for my age, I'm thinking I might start looking into buying a house towards the end of the year. I'm nearly 28 so functioning pretty well. I have a relative who would be more extreme than me but he is living on his own at this point and is pretty happy with life.

You also have absolutely no chance of independence when paralysed.

Your proposed double blind tests for vaccines to check your autism link btw would be classified as unethical with established vaccines. Since it puts lives in danger. Regardless, we can compare autism levels amongst unvaccinated groups and vaccinated. Such comparisons have been done and provided to you, there is no difference.

I'm sure you'll post another YouTube video to refute this.

Igotadose · 03-02-2019 11:21am

Encephalopathy wrote: »

God your so misinformed.
I have two children with ASD, one with aspergers and one with severe low functioning autism, she will need care for the rest of her life.
If i could swap her autism to her being paralyzed, I'd do it in a heartbeat, least then she would have the chance to become independent and most importantly have her own mind.

Having known a polio victim, your latter statement's a stretch. Having your own mind in a disabled body is torture for the one I knew as he had a very sharp mind.

Sorry about your children's condition.

ancapailldorcha · 03-02-2019 11:23am

Encephalopathy wrote: »

"The Highwire" on YouTube by bigtree backs up nearly everything he says using the government's own websites, CDC, hss, vears and so on, can see why you wouldn't like it.

https://www.aimintegrativemedicine(DOT)com/aim-integrative-medicine-blog/why-kennedy-sued-the-government-over-vaccine-safety-won

What bigtree and RFK are trying to do deserves a medal, anybody who injects that stuff into their children or themselves should be behind them, mindboggling that yous don't want that.

At the end of the day the double blind placebo would put the whole autism link to vaccines to bed, pharma knows this, anybody with common sense knows this, their reason for not doing it is pathetic, brainwashed.

I've had enough of the link dumps. Either provide actual evidence or continue to have people think you're peddling drivel.

Encephalopathy wrote: »

God your so misinformed.
I have two children with ASD, one with aspergers and one with severe low functioning autism, she will need care for the rest of her life.
If i could swap her autism to her being paralyzed, I'd do it in a heartbeat, least then she would have the chance to become independent and most importantly have her own mind.

Well your theory is wrong, anti vaxxers were once pro vaxxers, who unfortunately learnt the hard way.

I think this is sick. If you had a child like this, I doubt you'd want to use people like her as pawns to push your hateful agenda.

PhoneMain · 03-02-2019 11:38am

Encephalopathy wrote: »

God your so misinformed.
I have two children with ASD, one with aspergers and one with severe low functioning autism, she will need care for the rest of her life.
If i could swap her autism to her being paralyzed, I'd do it in a heartbeat, least then she would have the chance to become independent and most importantly have her own mind.

Well your theory is wrong, anti vaxxers were once pro vaxxers, who unfortunately learnt the hard way.

I'm sorry that you have 2 kids on the ASD. But I've 2 brothers. One who has Aspergers. Myself and my other brother don't have autism or aspergers. All 3 of us were vaccinated. Surely if the vaccinations caused aspergers in 1 brother, we'd all have been affected by it?

Actually, just read your full quote there, "If i could swap her autism to her being paralyzed, I'd do it in a heartbeat, least then she would have the chance to become independent"....................what the f*ck?!! You do know the lack of independence that being paralysed creates?!!!! If you don't, I can introduce you to people!!!

mzungu · 03-02-2019 12:01pm

Encephalopathy wrote: »

"The Highwire" on YouTube by bigtree backs up nearly everything he says using the government's own websites, CDC, hss, vears and so on, can see why you wouldn't like it.

https://www.aimintegrativemedicine(DOT)com/aim-integrative-medicine-blog/why-kennedy-sued-the-government-over-vaccine-safety-won

What bigtree and RFK are trying to do deserves a medal, anybody who injects that stuff into their children or themselves should be behind them, mindboggling that yous don't want that.

At the end of the day the double blind placebo would put the whole autism link to vaccines to bed, pharma knows this, anybody with common sense knows this, their reason for not doing it is pathetic, brainwashed.

Yet more links to "alternative medicine" sites and anti-vaxx YouTube channels! :rolleyes:

I told you I wasn't going on wild goose chases with your link dumps. I won't be doing your work for you. It's up to you to provide the evidence, not the other way around. Link dumps are not evidence.

Lay out your case in a post without just dumping a link there and telling everyone to "go find it, it's all in there". You can, of course, source your information from peer reviewed journals and lay out clearly where you get your information from.

If you can't be bothered to make your own case, then don't expect everybody else to do your work for you.

Martina1991 · 03-02-2019 12:15pm

Gonad wrote: »

My child was perfectly fine . Hitting all his milestones and targets . We got vaccine and things started to change . My wife is convinced it was the vaccination. We have spoken to a few parents who are in the same boat and they all say like our child their kids were not great feeders when baby’s and had problems keeping food down and issues when pooping .
My wife thinks it may have something to do with the gut when vaccine is administered .
My kid used to constantly talk and run around excitedly and it all stopped after vaccine

Encephalopathy wrote: »

Same kinda story, daughter hit every milestone as recorded in the wee orange book that the nurse,was actually quite advanced for her age, people would always comment how smart she was.
Cried solid for a couple of days after injection, speech gone, all interaction gone, avoided eye contact at all costs, no more responding to her name,flapping hands and started walking around on her tiptoes, couldn't use spoon anymore, used to just zone out staring into space, clicking your fingers in front her face and wouldn't flinch.
In a space of a couple of days we had a completely different child, 3 and half years ago, the day of her injections was the last time we heard her speak.( If you don't count the videos of her pre injections)
The only advice I could give to people that are going to vaccinate, is to record loads of video's.

"Regressive autism is a condition in which a child appears to develop typically but suddenly begins to lose speech and social skills. These signs and symptoms are usually seen between the ages of 15 and 30 months". As this is an age where many children receive their vaccinations, its no wonder parents place the blame on vaccinations.
https://www.autismparentingmagazine.com/what-is-regressive-autism/

"The tired hypothesis that MMR can cause regressive autism has been tested in Japan, where the vaccine was used only between 1989 and 1993, affording a natural experiment. Data on 904 patients with autism spectrum disorders were analysed (16C). During the period of MMR usage there was no significant difference in the incidence of regression between MMR-immunized children and non-immunized children."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/regressive-autism

Anthracite · 03-02-2019 12:16pm

Encephalopathy wrote: »

Well your theory is wrong, anti vaxxers were once pro vaxxers, who unfortunately learnt the hard way.

Don't worry, when you get your way and thousands of children die or are cripplied by preventable disease, lots of those anti-vaxxers will swing back behind science.

batgoat · 03-02-2019 12:19pm

Anthracite wrote: »

Don't worry, when you get your way and thousands of children die or are cripplied by preventable disease, lots of those anti-vaxxers will swing back behind science.

I honestly think they would start blaming it on something else. Eg the government is poisoning people with fluoride or chemtrails.

Anthracite · 03-02-2019 12:20pm

batgoat wrote: »

I honestly think they would start blaming it on something else. Eg the government is poisoning people with fluoride or chemtrails.

Yeah, fair point.

BAM! uhavechlamydia · 03-02-2019 12:46pm

I have a family member who is not going to vaccinate her newborn as she has been reading "informed" online articles about aluminium being used as an adjuvant...and it's harmful effects on babies.
I'm loathe to look at any of the information she's linked me.... but surely it's up there with the vaccines cause autism theory.... aluminium has been used for 80 years now and I'm sure I've not heard any horror stories?

Martina1991 · 03-02-2019 12:52pm

BAM! uhavechlamydia wrote: »

I have a family member who is not going to vaccinate her newborn as she has been reading "informed" online articles about aluminium being used as an adjuvant...and it's harmful effects on babies.
I'm loathe to look at any of the information she's linked me.... but surely it's up there with the vaccines cause autism theory.... aluminium has been used for 80 years now and I'm sure I've not heard any horror stories?

It's incredibly sad and worrying that a parent would take such severe risks with their infant's health because they think they know better than medical professionals. I assume their doctor would have insisted the child be vaccinated.

Anthracite · 03-02-2019 12:57pm

BAM! uhavechlamydia wrote: »

I have a family member who is not going to vaccinate her newborn as she has been reading "informed" online articles about aluminium being used as an adjuvant...and it's harmful effects on babies.
I'm loathe to look at any of the information she's linked me.... but surely it's up there with the vaccines cause autism theory.... aluminium has been used for 80 years now and I'm sure I've not heard any horror stories?

I think it's Dunning Kruger again.

If you think about it, there's a large cohort of people smart enough to read, but not smart enough to assess evidence and make logical deductions.

The arguments of anti-vaxxers are simplistically appealing. The arguments of science require more thought and intelligence. The cognitive miser will often prefer the easy answer over the correct answer.

BAM! uhavechlamydia · 03-02-2019 1:00pm

Martina1991 wrote: »

It's incredibly sad and worrying that a parent would take such severe risks with their infant's health because they think they know better than medical professionals. I assume their doctor would have insisted the child be vaccinated.

The doctor had a go at her... but seems that it's only reinforced her resolve

Martina1991 · 03-02-2019 1:03pm

BAM! uhavechlamydia wrote: »

The doctor had a go at her... but seems that it's only reinforced her resolve

What about the father, he should have a say as well.

BAM! uhavechlamydia · 03-02-2019 1:05pm

Anthracite wrote: »

I think it's Dunning Kruger again.

If you think about it, there's a large cohort of people smart enough to read, but not smart enough to assess evidence and make logical deductions.

The arguments of anti-vaxxers are simplistically appealing. The arguments of science require more thought and intelligence. The cognitive miser will often prefer the easy answer over the correct answer.

While i like the idea of Dunning Krueger...if I suggest it as being relevant to her sources..she will take it as also meaning her... and end up being counter productive.

Without going into too much detail..I tried to use my own personal experience to show the dangers...wasn't born here...wasn't vaccinated..had measles and mumps 1 after another and had long lasting effects...I'm trying my best to be reasoned with her..and not wallop her across the back of the head with a medical journal

Gonad · 03-02-2019 1:07pm

I would just like to make a few points and it’s the last thing I am going to say in this thread.

My little guy was born and all seemed to be fine. Happy little child and seemed to be hitting all markers and all was good. He was all smiles and babbling and Dada mama ect .

We got him vaccinated and he didn’t like the needle one bit. He screamed and got all cranky and never seemed to recover . He didn’t try talk again until about 14 months after that . I knew something wasn’t right and so did herself but we didn’t want to think we had done something that had harmed him. It was the elephant in the room. My wife started researching the vaccines and was convinced something was going on . So many stories of people all having had the same issues after vaccine .

Also just because the autism rates are the same in countries that don’t vaccinate doesn’t mean anything. There “could “ be many ways these symptoms show themselves and many things could cause the symptoms to develop . I remember a conversation I had with a man who was collecting money for an Autism charity and I asked him why were so many people starting to become affected by this and he said he was working with autistic kids for many year and he fully believed it was one of three things causing it , or all three . He said the vaccines , the food or the air !

I also just want to say about my own son as somebody mentioned before about people just not wanting to raise a kid with autism . I swear this is from the bottom of my heart , I would
not change one thing about my son . He is the most loving,funny child and I feel truly blessed to be his father . I know sometimes you hear people say things like that but I would not change one thing about him . The only thing I find hard is this fact there is not much support for kids that need that little bit of help . We have to work so hard to get what should be a basic right for all kids . I believe the government needs to up its game because it’s looks like there are many kids that are going to continue to need this extra support and at the moment it’s not there for many .

Lastly I would never tell anyone not to vaccinate their kids . We got our next one vaccinated. It was a tough decision but in the end we broke and said we must . Thankfully all seems fine this time round . I would just advise people to be aware of certain things that may develop and try get help as early as possible . Also I would like to say to people not to be so quick to shut other peoples views or experiences down . If somebody has lived through something I would trust their experience was true and listen to what they say and not just expect them to change those views because I can show them a clip board with a few numbers on it .

Sorry couldn’t go into much more detail as kids are killlingn each other here as I tried to get some thought down

Fuddyduddy · 03-02-2019 1:11pm

Forcing vaccinations on people violates their bodily autonomy.

Martina1991 · 03-02-2019 1:20pm

Gonad wrote: »

We got him vaccinated and he didn’t like the needle one bit. He screamed and got all cranky and never seemed to recover . He didn’t try talk again until about 14 months after that . I knew something wasn’t right and so did herself but we didn’t want to think we had done something that had harmed him. It was the elephant in the room. My wife started researching the vaccines and was convinced something was going on . So many stories of people all having had the same issues after vaccine .

Also just because the autism rates are the same in countries that don’t vaccinate doesn’t mean anything. There “could “ be many ways these symptoms show themselves and many things could cause the symptoms to develop . I remember a conversation I had with a man who was collecting money for an Autism charity and I asked him why were so many people starting to become affected by this and he said he was working with autistic kids for many year and he fully believed it was one of three things causing it , or all three . He said the vaccines , the food or the air !

Also I would like to say to people not to be so quick to shut other peoples views or experiences down . If somebody has lived through something I would trust their experience was true and listen to what they say and not just expect them to change those views because I can show them a clip board with a few numbers on it .

It is possible your child has regressive autism. Those effected can have a normal development until a certain age which suddenly regresses. Just because their vaccinations occurred around this time does not mean it was the cause. There is no scientific definitive proof that vaccines cause autism.

You met a man who was collecting for a charity, more than likely a parent of an autistic child himself. He definitely cannot definitively say vaccines cause autism.

I am sorry for your troubles of having a child who needs extra care and support, I really am.
But when it comes to determining causes, tests and cures for conditions we have to rely on medical science and those "clip boards with a few numbers on it" because they are far more accurate than beliefs and feelings.

Bannasidhe · 03-02-2019 1:28pm

Fuddyduddy wrote: »

Forcing vaccinations on people violates their bodily autonomy.

Forcing people with auto-immune diseases who cannot be vaccinated to be put at risk due to other people deciding not to vaccinate their children not only violates their bodily integrity - it puts their lives at serious risk.

Anti-vaxxers

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