Anti-vaxxers

Seth Brundle

mazwell wrote: »

I've noticed too on Facebook and its probably been said here before that a lot of anti vax people are also extremely pro life. I cant understand how they don't see the contradiction in those stances

...because both refuse to accept science and fact based discussion?

iamwhoiam

Amantine wrote: »

So they had TB, Diphtheria, Polio and Pertussis on top of all the other childhood diseases? I'm not being sarcastic, I don't know what the vaccination schedule was in 1945. These are genuine questions that I have.

I was born in the 50's . I had TB , Polio , Diphteria vaccines .
I was ill with measles , mumps , chicken pox . My brother had whooping cough , my sister scarlet fever . Both were hospitalised and my sister age 5 in isolation for four weeks without any contact from my parents except through a glass window
. My cousin died from pneumonia from measles age 2 , and a friends baby died from pertussis complications .
My mother lost two siblings from measles in the 30's
Thank goodness my granddaughter is vaccinated against these horrendous viruses now . Thank goodness her parents are informed and take their information from qualified authentic sources

VicMackey1

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Then explain to me what you mean ? You don't want an unvaccinated excluded from school but this would result in more kids being vaccinated ?
You have lost me ?
Anyway in my opinion its the children who by no fault of their own cannot be vaccinated that we most protect in the first instance . And not at the mercy of some child who's parents selfishly cannot see that

As I said in the earlier post that you quoted, "I think children should be vaccinated by a certain age and if the parents refuse, then the state should take whatever means necessary to have those children vaccinated, even if that means knocking down their door to forcibly remove the child."

iamwhoiam

VicMackey1 wrote: »

As I said in the earlier post that you quoted, "I think children should be vaccinated by a certain age and if the parents refuse, then the state should take whatever means necessary to have those children vaccinated, even if that means knocking down their door to forcibly remove the child."

Ok thanks for the reply . Personally I think banning kids from school would be less traumatic then dragging them forcefully from a mothers arms
Ban them from creche , pre school , school and activities and pretty soon their patents hopefully will cop on how damaging it is to their kids not to vaccinated
Then parents who don't vaccinate kids are selfish and only thinking of their own and will only react when it impacts on them

Wibbs

Amantine wrote: »

So they had TB, Diphtheria, Polio and Pertussis on top of all the other childhood diseases? I'm not being sarcastic, I don't know what the vaccination schedule was in 1945. These are genuine questions that I have.

Cool, but then how in the god holy hell can you take such a hardline position on something you appear to know so little about? To be fair pro vaccine hardliners can be just as in the dark on the larger subject and just as reactive and pig headed, but at least their position is far less dangerous even deadly to the community at large.

Oh and as Iamwhoiam noted yep there were a few vaccines knocking around back then. My dad was born in 1916 and was vaccinated a few times in his life, including the smallpox vaccine. Smallpox a disease that killed hundreds of millions down the centuries, now effectively eradicated in the wild 100% because of mass vaccination. I got the polio and tetanus vaccines, not the BCG though as I reacted to some test or other. I'm quite sure if the MMR vaccines were around when I was a kid my parents would have had me vaccinated. They certainly had no issue with me getting the polio and tetanus vaccine. My mum knew people who had caught polio and ended up in iron lungs and the like and/or crippled for life. Sod that.

Wibbs

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Ok thanks for the reply . Personally I think banning kids from school would be less traumatic then dragging them forcefully from a mothers arms
Ban them from creche , pre school , school and activities and pretty soon their patents hopefully will cop on how damaging it is to their kids not to vaccinated
Then parents who don't vaccinate kids are selfish and only thinking of their own and will only react when it impacts on them

+1000. For me knocking down doors and forcibly removing children is more than a step too bloody far. Fcuk that fascist shite.

Amantine

Wibbs wrote: »

Cool, but then how in the god holy hell can you take such a hardline position on something you appear to know so little about?

I take a hardline position? My kids have some necessary vaccinations (including polio), seems you have fallen for the the vax/anti-vax divide propaganda.
How do I appear to know little about vaccines because I ask what the vaccine schedule was in Ireland in 1945? Because I've asked around - and it seems no one knows the answer to that question. It's not a science question, it's a history question anyway.

I certainly don't appoint myself as an expert like the people on the blogs, who are constantly referred to as "the authority on all things vaccine" on here. They are the same people who push the big divide between "pro-vaxx" and "anti-vax" when really a lot of people are pro-choice on both sides. It's handy to ridicule anyone who questions anything, and stops you from thinking, which furthers their agenda, not yours.

You'll find no one on this thread is an expert.

ancapailldorcha

Amantine wrote: »

I take a hardline position? My kids have some necessary vaccinations, seems you have fallen for the the vax/anti-vax divide propaganda.
How do I appear to know little about vaccines because I ask what the vaccine schedule was in Ireland in 1945? Because I've asked around - and it seems no one knows the answer to that question. It's not a science question, it's a history question anyway.

Why don't you do your own research instead of expecting others to do it for you?

Amantine wrote: »

I certainly don't appoint myself as an expert like the people on the blogs, who are constantly referred to as "the authority on all things vaccine" on here. They are the same people who push the big divide between "pro-vaxx" and "anti-vax" when really a lot of people are pro-choice on both sides. It's handy to ridicule anyone who questions anything, and stops you from thinking, which furthers their agenda, not yours.

Who has referred to them this way? Quotes please.

Amantine wrote: »

You'll find no one on this thread is an expert.

Of course but in general, people who accuse dissenters of being like Nazis and who spam memes and studies from discredited scientists are less expert than others.

Amantine

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Now you're dumping anti-vax memes? I didn't think you could put in even less effort but I was wrong.

I thought it was appropriate since we are talking about forcibly removing kids from their parents if they don't vaccinate. And funny...

Amantine

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why don't you do your own research instead of expecting others to do it for you?



Who has referred to them this way? Quotes please.



Of course but in general, people who accuse dissenters of being like Nazis and who spam memes and studies from discredited scientists are less expert than others.

That was low effort too, a least have some sort of an argument.

VicMackey1

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Ok thanks for the reply . Personally I think banning kids from school would be less traumatic then dragging them forcefully from a mothers arms
Ban them from creche , pre school , school and activities and pretty soon their patents hopefully will cop on how damaging it is to their kids not to vaccinated
Then parents who don't vaccinate kids are selfish and only thinking of their own and will only react when it impacts on them

Forcefully vaccinating children would be a last resort! Banning children from creche, pre school, school and activities would have terrible long term effects on their mental health.

mulbot

VicMackey1 wrote: »

As I said in the earlier post that you quoted, "I think children should be vaccinated by a certain age and if the parents refuse, then the state should take whatever means necessary to have those children vaccinated, even if that means knocking down their door to forcibly remove the child."

Do you think, say, schoolteachers(in constant contact) should have to have all their vaccines up to date? Or people who work around very young or old people who might be at risk from flu for example.

Amantine

VicMackey1 wrote: »

Forcefully vaccinating children would be a last resort! Banning children from creche, pre school, school and activities would have terrible long term effects on their mental health.

And knocking down the parents door to forcibly remove the child wouldn't?

VicMackey1

Wibbs wrote: »

+1000. For me knocking down doors and forcibly removing children is more than a step too bloody far. Fcuk that fascist shite.

Then I guess I am a fascist for putting childrens welfare first!

stefanovich

Ember Stocky Lifeboat wrote: »

I don't think anybody is saying trust all pharmaceutical companies all the time, or that they are immune from corruption, but to risk the lives of your children and strangers because you have a trust issue is just mind boggling.

How many vaccinations does the average child in the US receive? Hundreds. A limited number of objectively reviewed vaccines? Fine. Every new vaccine pushed by profit driven and often criminal big Pharma? No thanks.

Amantine

VicMackey1 wrote: »

Then I guess I am a fascist for putting childrens welfare first!

Seems you're not the only fascist, here is a video of a swat team removing a child!!!!!
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/unvaccinated-child-video-arizona-police-anti-vaxx-swat-kelly-townsend-chandler-a8843841.html

VicMackey1

Amantine wrote: »

And knocking down the parents door to forcibly remove the child wouldn't?

Once vaccinated, the parents can take the child back. I think one incident that the child will not remember is preferable to years of seclusion!

Wibbs

VicMackey1 wrote: »

Then I guess I am a fascist for putting childrens welfare first!

When hot headed ideas that call for state action against people, actions that are against the current laws of the state, especially when they're coached in "protecting [insert vulnerable group here. Children a bonus] first!! Then yeah, sounds a tad totalitarian to me and has never been a good road to walk down.

iamwhoiam

VicMackey1 wrote: »

Then I guess I am a fascist for putting childrens welfare first!

Dragging a child forcefully off its mother is not putting childrens welfare first .

Seth Brundle

Amantine wrote: »

And knocking down the parents door to forcibly remove the child wouldn't?

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Dragging a child forcefully off its mother is not putting childrens welfare first .

There's no doubt that it will not ever be like that and I think the vast majority of people would not agree with that route.
However, as all children have the right to stay healthy, excluding unvaccinated children from the education system along with other communal places does seem appropriate.
In addition, the state should not be providing social welfare to people who do not take steps proven to be beneficial to their childrens health.
If some parents choose to leave their children without immunisation, then they should not be supported by the state and those children should not be allowed to freely mix with children whose parents have taken the recommended steps.

Amantine

Seems that all your fascism will not prevent outbreaks...
I don't trust anything the CDC says but this is from 1984, before the became completely corrupt.

"This outbreak demonstrates that transmission of measles can occur within a school population with a documented immunization level of 100%. This level was validated during the outbreak investigation."

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000359.htm

Wibbs

stefanovich wrote: »

How many vaccinations does the average child in the US receive? Hundreds.

Nope. More like 15 and that's in the States. The Yanks are over medicalised to a major degree for all sorts of reasons. And yes money to be made is certainly one in the case of their medical culture. Hell, pick up any American magazine and they're chock full of full page ads for pills for every ill. They've also got a huge problem with abuse of medical painkillers. Europe isn't nearly in their zone for any of that stuff.

mulbot

VicMackey1 wrote: »

Once vaccinated, the parents can take the child back. I think one incident that the child will not remember is preferable to years of seclusion!

Would you have a look at my previous question if you can please, I'd like to see your opinion. Thanks

Amantine

VicMackey1 wrote: »

Once vaccinated, the parents can take the child back. I think one incident that the child will not remember is preferable to years of seclusion!

So trauma that a child can't remember is ok? Freud would disagree...

Wibbs

Amantine wrote: »

Seems that all your fascism will not prevent outbreaks...
I don't trust anything the CDC says but this is from 1984, before the became completely corrupt.

"This outbreak demonstrates that transmission of measles can occur within a school population with a documented immunization level of 100%. This level was validated during the outbreak investigation."

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000359.htm

Read the last paragraph.

If waning immunity is not a problem, this outbreak suggests that measles transmission can occur within the 2%-10% of expected vaccine failures (5,7). However, transmission was not sustained beyond 36 days in this outbreak, and community spread was principally among unvaccinated preschool children. The infrequent occurrence of measles among highly vaccinated persons suggests that this outbreak may have resulted from chance clustering of otherwise randomly distributed vaccine failures in the community. That measles transmission can occur among vaccine failures makes it even more important to ensure persons are adequately vaccinated. Had there been a substantial number of unvaccinated or inadequately vaccinated students in the high school and the community, transmission in Sangamon County probably would have been sustained.

Never ind that even when vaccines don't offer full protection the resulting illness when caught is less severe than in an unvaccinated individual. Often much less severe.

iamwhoiam

VicMackey1 wrote: »

Forcefully vaccinating children would be a last resort! Banning children from creche, pre school, school and activities would have terrible long term effects on their mental health.

Well that would be completely down to their parents . But my guess would be that banned from creche , school and activities would help change many minds and quickly increase the uptake

VicMackey1

mulbot wrote: »

Do you think, say, schoolteachers(in constant contact) should have to have all their vaccines up to date? Or people who work around very young or old people who might be at risk from flu for example.

Yes. I can't believe it is not compulsory for healthcare workers to have the flu vaccine yet!

Wibbs

Amantine wrote: »

I take a hardline position?

When you post a retarded pic like this it hardly marks you out as a moderate.

Amantine wrote: »

Amantine

Wibbs wrote: »

this outbreak suggests that measles transmission can occur within the 2%-10% of expected vaccine failures.

Never ind that even when vaccines don't offer full protection the resulting illness when caught is less severe than in an unvaccinated individual. Often much less severe.

ok, so it says that there is a 2 to 10% rate of failure and illness is much less severe in the vaccinated. Interesting.

VicMackey1

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Well that would be completely down to their parents . But my guess would be that banned from creche , school and activities would help change many minds and quickly increase the uptake

I'm sure it would be very effective and I don't disagree with it entirely. Its a measure I would support. Its just that some children will still pay the price for their parents neglect.