Limerick Light Rail

marno21

Growing chatter about a proposed light rail system for Limerick:

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/266522/limerick-council-to-consider-light-rail-as-part-of-new-transportstrategy.html

Amongst others utilising the large amount of dormant trackbed around the city:

pigtown

What ever happened to the last mid-western transport strategy?

roadmaster

pigtown wrote: »

What ever happened to the last mid-western transport strategy?

http://www.mwasp.ie/documents/Public%20Transport%20Feasibility%20Study.pdf

There is a small bit about Light Rail in it at 3.2, Highlighting potential pitfalls and comparisons to projects in the UK

McAlban

I have previously crayoned this...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=104109837

The Report also shows the Foynes Rail Line Going no where near Rathkeale or Adare!

namloc1980

This won't happen - not in this half century anyway. At best Limerick should aim for improved bus service on major routes in and out and upgrading and using the heavy rail infrastructure that already exists. Light rail is a pipe dream though.

marno21

namloc1980 wrote: »

This won't happen - not in this half century anyway. At best Limerick should aim for improved functional bus service on major routes in and out and upgrading and using the heavy rail infrastructure that already exists. Light rail is a pipe dream though.

Fixed that. Bus service in Limerick is pathetic. Car commutes can be upto 4x faster. Why bother if that's the case

colm_mcm

Monorail!

Victor

The existing lines have potential. Reinventing the wheel is unnecessary.

A parkway type station in Ballysimon could attract people from the east of the city, to both local and intercity services.

yermanoffthetv

If I had a quid for every artist impression of a lovely piece of infrastructure that never materialized in this country Id be typing this from a hotter climate. €350m was the quote in 2007 which even in Celtic tiger fever, was laughably optimistic.

Light rail is a non runner, It would cost as much if not less to have a bespoke system running on the road as to relay much of the track with tram lines. I would however agree with exploring if using the existing in use and disused alignments can be made into some sort of urban transit system.

Putting on my Walter Mitty pants Id like to see a 2/3 car dmu starting from a spur from the main line at Coonagh/new LIT campus with a P&R and stops at Moyross>Kings Island/Lowercross>Parkway(interchange with Dublin coach CC-UL bus)City Centre>Childers Rd.>Crescent SC>Fr Russell Rd>Mungret Woods>Raheen BP + P&R >Glencairn>Kilteragh >back in the opposite direction.

It pretty much ignores the east side of the city as the Nenagh line is too far away to be useful and I don't see a way to get even a light rail or tram out to UL/Castletroy with out tunneling or buying a serious amount of land and property.

It would however connect many residential areas with schools, colleges, shopping and business parks and alleviate some traffic coming in from the N west and S West and get some traffic off the Dock Rd, Childers Rd and the R526. Thats just my view on it though.

ClovenHoof

Makes a hell of a lot more sense than the Western Rail Corridor ever did. Alingments though populated areas all around the city.

There are cities in Europe with populations under 50K that have light rail services so get over yourself some of you.

namloc1980

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Makes a hell of a lot more sense than the Western Rail Corridor ever did. Alingments though populated areas all around the city.

There are cities in Europe with populations under 50K that have light rail services so get over yourself some of you.

Ireland doesn't do large scale investment in public transport. It's not a government priority or even on its agenda to do any form of public transport investment outside the GDA, other than a few new buses here and there. All well and good bringing up other countries but in those places the population and politicians expect and support decent public transport. Not so here.

bk

I agree with both of you above, but I do think that priority number one for both Limerick and Cork is to get the damn M20 built.

Priority number two (hopefully in parallel) is to improve their bus services greatly. No point in talking about fancy light rail when you have a very poor bus service and very few people using it. Light rail (Luas) is what you do when buses reach their maximum capacity (as in the road capacity, a bus being full when you have a bus only every 30 minutes doesn't count!). I don't know Limerick well, but I suspect neither Cork nor Limerick are anywhere near that point yet. You need to learn to walk before you run.

In fairness I do know that the quality of the bus services is coming on in leaps and bounds in Cork, I hope that the same is happening in Limerick.

Of course it is a very good idea to plan ahead for having light rail some time in future. Plan where the line would go, retain ownership of the route, encourage high density development along the route, etc.

This is something that Cork has been doing with the Cork Area Strategic Plan and the new plans for the Docklands down there.

You have to remember that most of the route that Luas takes in Dublin is along an old railway line that was retained and kept in ownership for almost 50 years before Luas was eventually built on it. Limerick and Cork most likely need to be thinking ahead 50 years like this, rather then expecting to be getting this sort of development in the short term.

irishguy

This isn't going to happen any time soon and shouldn't happen, Limerick doesn't have the population density for it. Proper investment into a high frequency bus network and M20 is where the money should go.
Limerick is probably the best served city in Ireland for road infrastructure capacity even more so when the northern distributor road gets competed.

Victor

bk wrote: »

You have to remember that most of the route that Luas takes in Dublin is along an old railway line that was retained and kept in ownership for almost 50 years before Luas was eventually built on it.

No, much of the Green Line was sold off and had to be bought back.

SeanW

bk wrote: »

I agree with both of you above, but I do think that priority number one for both Limerick and Cork is to get the damn M20 built.

Priority number two (hopefully in parallel) is to improve their bus services greatly. No point in talking about fancy light rail when you have a very poor bus service and very few people using it. Light rail (Luas) is what you do when buses reach their maximum capacity (as in the road capacity, a bus being full when you have a bus only every 30 minutes doesn't count!). I don't know Limerick well, but I suspect neither Cork nor Limerick are anywhere near that point yet. You need to learn to walk before you run.

In fairness I do know that the quality of the bus services is coming on in leaps and bounds in Cork, I hope that the same is happening in Limerick.

Of course it is a very good idea to plan ahead for having light rail some time in future. Plan where the line would go, retain ownership of the route, encourage high density development along the route, etc.

This is something that Cork has been doing with the Cork Area Strategic Plan and the new plans for the Docklands down there.

You have to remember that most of the route that Luas takes in Dublin is along an old railway line that was retained and kept in ownership for almost 50 years before Luas was eventually built on it. Limerick and Cork most likely need to be thinking ahead 50 years like this, rather then expecting to be getting this sort of development in the short term.

You're right about most of this, but not all. It isn't necessary to wait for the roads to be maxed out with full buses to build light rail. Because light rail attracts people to public transport in a way that buses never do. Buses are noisy, smelly, slow, bouncy and they're less than ideal for people with luggage, wheelchairs, prams and so on. Electric trams are quiet, clean (at the point of use, though the electricity to supply them may not be) a little faster when they have offline rights of way, smooth and with level boarding, are better for people who have any kind of mobility restriction.

If you look at the United States during the 1950s when all the car, oil and tyre companies shut down all the streetcar lines, they replaced them with bus services and while these were probably good buses, it soon became a class divide between people who could afford to buy a new car every two years vs. poor people who were stuck with the bus. Previously, streetcars had been used by the lower and middle classes.

One uses the bus because when one has no other choice. If you cannot drive to where you need to go, there are no trains/trams and you can't go somewhere else (like a different branch of the same store or something) you use the bus because it's the only way. Nobody likes using the bus.

My point is that if you're waiting for the roads to be maxed out with full buses as the criteria to build light rail, no, you will be waiting a looooooong time. All that you need is a plan to have trams well used. Light rail also changes development patters - would you prefer to live somewhere that a bus connects you to the central area, or where there is a tram/metro etc? QED.

wordofwarning

SeanW wrote: »

You're right about most of this, but not all. It isn't necessary to wait for the roads to be maxed out with full buses to build light rail. Because light rail attracts people to public transport in a way that buses never do. Buses are noisy, smelly, slow, bouncy and they're less than ideal for people with luggage, wheelchairs, prams and so on. Electric trams are quiet, clean (at the point of use, though the electricity to supply them may not be) a little faster when they have offline rights of way, smooth and with level boarding, are better for people who have any kind of mobility restriction.

So instead of using modern, clean and smooth buses we should just throw a ton of money at a Luas line? Literally 80% of the problems you have listed with buses can be addressed with newer modern buses ie the new Dublin Buses are actually pretty nice to ride on. They have tons of room for prams etc.

If someone has notions, that they won't use public transport as they don't like buses, I find it hard that they will love a luas where they will likely be standing rather than sitting on a bus.

A BRT is a good compromise for smaller cities. It is like a tram without the cost. But there is zero point in throwing money at a BRT or Luas as there is no desire to fix the existing issue with buses ie poor timing etc.

Victor

SeanW wrote: »

Nobody likes using the bus.

That's not true for a large number of people.

SeanW

wordofwarning wrote: »

So instead of using modern, clean and smooth buses we should just throw a ton of money at a Luas line?

I'm not suggesting this as a rule, rather to recognise that a tram will be more attractive to a lot of people than a bus. More importantly, it will also affect development patterns as people will want live near it. Therefore, you shouldn't look solely at the current bus system (whatever its condition) as the sole guide to whether a tram line would work or not.

Literally 80% of the problems you have listed with buses can be addressed with newer modern buses ie the new Dublin Buses are actually pretty nice to ride on. They have tons of room for prams etc.

I know, I use them daily in my commute. They're not bad, I'll admit, but if I had a Metro or a tram or could drive instead, I would probably do so. They're noisy, the spew ungodly levels of fumes into the areas they stop sometimes and when someone has to get on with a wheelchair or powerchair, they can be accommodated, but the driver has to make a big production out of it. Lower the bus, huge amounts of beep-beep-beeping, automatic announcements the floor folds out. And woe betide the whole bus if the on-board computer fails to recognise that the floor has been folded back up. None of this on the tram.

If someone has notions, that they won't use public transport

Only about the top 10% "have notions" as you put it and will avoid public transport as a general rule. The other 90% are all to play for.

I find it hard that they will love a luas where they will likely be standing rather than sitting on a bus.

And yet, that is exactly what happens in Dublin. I don't get to use the Luas much, but every tram I see has standees. In many cases, those Luas users abandoned an alternative service that would have been demonstrably more in their interests to use, such as the former 90 bus.

In fact, I distinctly remember an old post, I think it was on Rail Users Ireland a few years after the Luas opened, a tip "if you need to go between Heuston and Connolly, use the 90 bus, its faster than the Luas, and it's practically empty because everyone else doing the same journey is on the Luas ..." the 90 bus was scaled back in the years that followed and I think since abandoned. The fact that the Luas is able to fill a 50 metre tram to capacity every few minutes should tell you something.

Both of the tram services are maxed out beyond capacity in key areas (Red line from Heuston in, the Northern part of the Green line. The same is true for the DART in both directions and the Maynooth Commuter.

A BRT is a good compromise for smaller cities. It is like a tram without the cost. But there is zero point in throwing money at a BRT or Luas as there is no desire to fix the existing issue with buses ie poor timing etc.

Yeah, but it's still a bus.

Victor wrote:

That's not true for a large number of people.

People use buses, to be sure, but I think that's largely because there is no metro/tram available instead, or because you are going into a city's central area and the bus lanes let you skip the traffic/avoid paying for parking. Buses are also useful if you're in Dublin and need to get somewhere like Mullingar after 7PM and the intercity railway has shut down for the evening. Or if the bus is cheaper than the train. But does anyone actually LIKE it?

roadmaster

The way technology is going at the moment I am sure electric buses that will have a good range are only around the corner. Surely this would be the way to go with a public transport system for our smaller cities like limerick and larger towns. They would be good for the environment and would not need streets to be dug up like a rail system. Once they are ran effectifly and the hours/ routes people want it would be win win

bk

SeanW, you are of course right that light rail is more attractive then buses. But I disagree with you that modern buses are dirty and uncomfortable as you make out. The main attraction of light rail is it's reliability. It is just much less likely to get stuck in traffic.

However I believe Cork and Limericks public transport usage is in the single digit.

That leaves absolutely zero economic justification for building expensive light rail.

Cork and Limerick need to focus on vastly improving their bus services and see a resultant significant increase in bus usage before the idea of light rail would be even taken seriously. And in reality as others have said above, BRT is more realistic first step.

roadmaster wrote: »

The way technology is going at the moment I am sure electric buses that will have a good range are only around the corner. Surely this would be the way to go with a public transport system for our smaller cities like limerick and larger towns. They would be good for the environment and would not need streets to be dug up like a rail system. Once they are ran effectifly and the hours/ routes people want it would be win win

Full EV single deck buses are now pretty well developed and widely available. London is replacing their 300 single deck buses with full EV buses over the next three years.

We should certainly do the same with our single decker buses.

Double Deckers are far harder to build as full EV for a variety of reasons. So far only a handful of demo protypes exist in London. So we might want to give that a few more years to develop.

However hybrid battery/diesel double deckers are VERY well developed now and all new double deckers bought in london over the last 5 years have been hybrids and we should be doing the same from today.

Another possibility is hybrid/bio-gas buses, good from government policy perspective.

BTW an interesting fact, a typical modern Diesel car like a Volkswagen Golf, prodcues more then twice the amount of NOX and PM's as a modern Euro 6 bus like those used by DB/BE!

Yes, in total, not per passenger, literally a diesel car produces more then twice the amount of NOX/PM's as the bus next to it! Without even taking into account the 80 or so people sitting on the bus!

This is due to the vastly tighter emission rules for trucks and buses, then the ones for cars which were massively watered down at the behest of the European car companies.

loyatemu

Belfast is much bigger than either city and they've gone with BRT.

cgcsb

loyatemu wrote: »

Belfast is much bigger than either city and they've gone with BRT.

Purely because the UK government isn't prepared to spend big money on infrastructure in peripheral cities. Any normal European country would have a city the size of Belfast kitted out with a multi-line light rail in a jiffy. The Republic of Ireland apes UK policy on most matters.

Victor

And because they make buses in Ballymena.

bk

Victor wrote: »

And because they make buses in Ballymena.

The BRT coming to Belfast is from VanHool, a Belgian company.

But yes, Wrights make lots of the buses used in the UK and Ireland, including the majority of the DB and BE fleet over the past 10 years or so.

wally79

Light rail is a great solution. Based in Dublin and I can get a seat on the bus from right outside my door which drops me 5 mins from work or walk 10 minutes to stand on the luas which drops me 10 minutes from work.

Luas wins every time because I know exactly how long my commute will take every day. I'm not at the mercy of variables like the schools going back or people driving on a wet day.

bk

wally79 wrote: »

Light rail is a great solution. Based in Dublin and I can get a seat on the bus from right outside my door which drops me 5 mins from work or walk 10 minutes to stand on the luas which drops me 10 minutes from work.

Luas wins every time because I know exactly how long my commute will take every day. I'm not at the mercy of variables like the schools going back or people driving on a wet day.

I think everyone would agree that Light Rail is nicer then bus. But you do have to keep in mind the cost of it. It cost €700 million to build the two Luas lines and the current Luas Cross City project costs €365 million. So that is a total of over €1 billion!

So you have to ask would spending 500 million each on a Luas line for Cork and Limerick be good value for money?

That 1 billion could also buy you the M20 or a massive increase in the bus fleets of Cork and Limerick that would serve a much wider area of those cities then a single Luas line would.

Victor

bk wrote: »

I think everyone would agree that Light Rail is nicer then bus. But you do have to keep in mind the cost of it. It cost €700 million to build the two Luas lines and the current Luas Cross City project costs €365 million. So that is a total of over €1 billion!

Don't forget the previous extensions, so a total of about €1.5 billion in capital costs.

Idbatterim

in terms of the noise and smell from buses, agreed! But these will not be issues in the what minimum ten years it would take for this to become a reality?

Middle Man

Limerick light rail seems a good idea in principle and I've recently been looking into this very thing along with similar ideas for both Cork and Galway. For Limerick, I think a MetroLink style system where trams would travel on existing railways as well as street level tramways - this would require the use of the Irish broad gauge or double gauge on some lines. As some existing railways seem very constrained, it might be best to develop loop routes - for example, outbound by railway and inbound by street. There are a few obstacles like the aforementioned, but where there's a will, there's a way!

Henry Ford III

Aim high peoples!

Victor

Middle Man wrote: »

double gauge

Do you mean dual gauge, where trams and trains would mix?

This wouldn't be allowed:
* The buffers would need to line up vertically and horizontally.
* Trains mass and speed is much higher than those of trams.
* Tram structure probably wouldn't withstand a strike from a train.

The only saving grace in Limerick is that there are currently no train services on the southern lines and any future service is likely to be limited.

Middle Man

Victor wrote: »

Do you mean dual gauge, where trams and trains would mix?

This wouldn't be allowed:
* The buffers would need to line up vertically and horizontally.
* Trains mass and speed is much higher than those of trams.
* Tram structure probably wouldn't withstand a strike from a train.

The only saving grace in Limerick is that there are currently no train services on the southern lines and any future service is likely to be limited.

Most street trams worldwide use the International Gauge of 1435mm (Dublin's Luas included) while the Irish Mainline Rail Gauge is 1600mm - it may be too costly to have trams custom made for a 1600mm gauge, so another option might be to have certain existing mainline tracks in Limerick fitted with three rails in order to allow the two types of rail vehicles to run thereon. However, there may indeed be issues with this such as buffer alignment - AFAIK, the Manchester MetroLink trams can run on railways as well as streets, but the British mainline has a standard gauge of 1435mm.

As for vehicle weight differential, is this really a problem - for example, would a DART train have much chance in an argument with an Enterprise train (headed by a heavy engine) if they were to crash head-on at lets say an equal 80kph speed (DARTS are AFAIK capable of 100/110kph)? If the DART was extended to Balbriggan, you'd be talking about such trains at a max operating speed of 80kph against the Enterprise at a max operating speed of 145kph (this could increase to 160kph) on the same tracks.

Victor

Middle Man wrote: »

Most street trams worldwide use the International Gauge of 1435mm (Dublin's Luas included) while the Irish Mainline Rail Gauge is 1600mm - it may be too costly to have trams custom made for a 1600mm gauge, so another option might be to have certain existing mainline tracks in Limerick fitted with three rails in order to allow the two types of rail vehicles to run thereon.

One has to realise that a small number of vehicles could provide Limerick with a decent service. However, you would need to re-do a lot of track and points, etc. to add a third rail. The economics would probably fall to conventional rail vehicles being best value, then Irish gauge trams, then dual gauge track.

However, there may indeed be issues with this such as buffer alignment - AFAIK, the Manchester MetroLink trams can run on railways as well as streets, but the British mainline has a standard gauge of 1435mm.

I get the impression that MetroLink shares some alignments with mainline rail, but does not share track with trains.

As for vehicle weight differential, is this really a problem - for example, would a DART train have much chance in an argument with an Enterprise train (headed by a heavy engine) if they were to crash head-on at lets say an equal 80kph speed (DARTS are AFAIK capable of 100/110kph)? If the DART was extended to Balbriggan, you'd be talking about such trains at a max operating speed of 80kph against the Enterprise at a max operating speed of 145kph (this could increase to 160kph) on the same tracks.

DART trains are designed to operate in an environment where there are other mainline trains, trams aren't. If the DART was extended to Balbriggan, they would buy new vehicles - ones that would be able to do a much higher speed than currently (100km/h).

Taytosnax

bk wrote: »

I think everyone would agree that Light Rail is nicer then bus. But you do have to keep in mind the cost of it. It cost €700 million to build the two Luas lines and the current Luas Cross City project costs €365 million. So that is a total of over €1 billion!

So you have to ask would spending 500 million each on a Luas line for Cork and Limerick be good value for money?

That 1 billion could also buy you the M20 or a massive increase in the bus fleets of Cork and Limerick that would serve a much wider area of those cities then a single Luas line would.

Rather than constantly pouring cold water over any proposals to expand non-private bus services can I suggest you and others take a long term view of what enhanced PT can do for a city, especially Limerick.

I would suggest that the city and county should undertake a 30 year development plan to massively expand Limerick so that it becomes Ireland's second-largest city and a true counterweight to Dublin.

The new city of Limerick should be designed to minimise the need for private cars in the City and that means having a comprehensive light rail system in the City and suburbs, a rail connection to Shannon airport and to develop along existing and closed railways.

For further reading why not look at what the former Secretary General of the Department of Finance, John Moran has to say on the future development of Ireland and specifically Limerick.

bk

Taytosnax wrote: »

The new city of Limerick should be designed to minimise the need for private cars in the City and that means having a comprehensive light rail system in the City and suburbs, a rail connection to Shannon airport and to develop along existing and closed railways.

Well right there you are starting off from a poor area of understanding.

Cork is the second largest city in Ireland, third largest if you include the reality of Belfast.

Cork is vastly larger then Limerick, with a Metro population of more then double Limericks (208,669 vs 94,192) and it is also growing much faster (5.1% growth, versus 3.0%. census 2011 to 2016).

Actually Limericks population growth is actually very poor on a national basis and ranks way done. See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland_by_population

With numbers like that, it has no hope of ever becoming the second city, so please show some realism.

Having said that, Limerick should of course continue to grow and develop and plan for the future, but less of the hyperbole and more realism.

loyatemu

part of Limerick's problem is that some of the city is in Clare. Similarly some of Cork City is under the county council's control and the 2 councils don't necessarily want the same things (and attempts to expand the city limits are inevitably resisted by the counties).

Taytosnax

bk wrote: »

Well right there you are starting off from a poor area of understanding.

Cork is the second largest city in Ireland, third largest if you include the reality of Belfast.

Cork is vastly larger then Limerick, with a Metro population of more then double Limericks (208,669 vs 94,192) and it is also growing much faster (5.1% growth, versus 3.0%. census 2011 to 2016).

Actually Limericks population growth is actually very poor on a national basis and ranks way done. See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland_by_population

With numbers like that, it has no hope of ever becoming the second city, so please show some realism.

Having said that, Limerick should of course continue to grow and develop and plan for the future, but less of the hyperbole and more realism.

With all due respect I am very much aware that Cork is currently Ireland's second largest city so quit patronising me.

Pay attention to what is being said outside the boards.ie bubble, there are some very serious proposals for how Ireland is to be developed over the next 40 years. The status quo is no longer an option.

bk

Taytosnax wrote: »

With all due respect I am very much aware that Cork is currently Ireland's second largest city so quit patronising me.

Pay attention to what is being said outside the boards.ie bubble, there are some very serious proposals for how Ireland is to be developed over the next 40 years. The status quo is no longer an option.

Not patronising, just reality.

I've seen a few similar posts claiming Limerick could become the second largest city and it is frankly just laughable. The truth is Limerick is just barely a city, in European context it would just be called a large town.

I don't know where people are getting this idea from at all, it simply has no bases in fact, I can point you to any number of stats which will show that Limerick growth is actually quiet slow on a national basis. It certainly isn't going to catch up with Cork, not a hope. Hell even Galway is growing faster then it!

A recent report from the NTA shows that 40% of all BE's passengers are carried on the Cork network and that it is BE's fastest growing area outside of Dublin.

Cork City, County Council along with the NTA have plans to grow the metropolitan area of Cork to 500,000 in the next 30 years:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/metropolitan-cork-has-capacity-to-grow-to-population-of-500-000-1.2846012

The Cork metropolitan area had a recorded population off 296,000 in 2010, which is s expected to grow by 32 per cent by 2022 to 381,500. This would make it bigger than the projected targets over the same period for Galway, Limerick/Shannon and Waterford combined, said Mr Lucey.

Cork has massive plans for the 10 billion development down at the port, which will likely be the second largest development in the country after Dublin Port getting redeveloped.

So Cork certainly isn't waiting around for Limerick to catch up :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, Limerick is a success story, it has worked hard to improve it's very high employment rates and crime issues and has done great development along the quays and I hope that it continues to go from strength to strength.

But it also has to be realistic about it's place in the development of the whole country.

Cork and Limerick need to work together to get the M20 built and act as a counter balance to Dublin in as much as then can. They need to work together rather then against one another.

BTW Nationally the real power axis is Dublin - Belfast, most of the countries population growth is along this axis and it would explode under the unlikely scenario of unification. Cork and Limerick need to scramble and work together to offer an alternative to this axis.

Taytosnax

bk wrote: »

Not patronising, just reality.

I've seen a few similar posts claiming Limerick could become the second largest city and it is frankly just laughable. The truth is Limerick is just barely a city, in European context it would just be called a large town.

I don't know where people are getting this idea from at all, it simply has no bases in fact, I can point you to any number of stats which will show that Limerick growth is actually quiet slow on a national basis. It certainly isn't going to catch up with Cork, not a hope. Hell even Galway is growing faster then it!

A recent report from the NTA shows that 40% of all BE's passengers are carried on the Cork network and that it is BE's fastest growing area outside of Dublin.

Cork City, County Council along with the NTA have plans to grow the metropolitan area of Cork to 500,000 in the next 30 years:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/metropolitan-cork-has-capacity-to-grow-to-population-of-500-000-1.2846012



Cork has massive plans for the 10 billion development down at the port, which will likely be the second largest development in the country after Dublin Port getting redeveloped.

So Cork certainly isn't waiting around for Limerick to catch up :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, Limerick is a success story, it has worked hard to improve it's very high employment rates and crime issues and has done great development along the quays and I hope that it continues to go from strength to strength.

But it also has to be realistic about it's place in the development of the whole country.

Cork and Limerick need to work together to get the M20 built and act as a counter balance to Dublin in as much as then can. They need to work together rather then against one another.

BTW Nationally the real power axis is Dublin - Belfast, most of the countries population growth is along this axis and it would explode under the unlikely scenario of unification. Cork and Limerick need to scramble and work together to offer an alternative to this axis.

So in effect Limerick must "know its place".

I appreciate your loyalty to Cork, but if one was looking with fresh eyes at where to expand in Ireland Limerick would be the obvious choice.

Deep sea port at Foynes, transatlantic airport at Shannon, motorway and dual carriageway connections to Dublin, Galway and hopefully in the next few years a motorway to Cork. Add to that major rail connections and you have the perfect groundwork in place to really significantly expand the city. It's not just me saying this.

Oh and what does the BTW phrase you use in your posts mean?

bk

Taytosnax wrote: »

Deep sea port at Foynes, transatlantic airport at Shannon, motorway and dual carriageway connections to Dublin, Galway and hopefully in the next few years a motorway to Cork. Add to that major rail connections and you have the perfect groundwork in place to really significantly expand the city. It's not just me saying this.

Hold on their a second, Cork has the second deepest natural harbour in the world! It has a motorway to Dublin too and an hourly intercity train service. Cork Airport carries more passengers then Shannon and now is starting to do transatlantic flights too.

BTW The M20 is likely to benefit and grow Cork more then Limerick. Some people in Limerick have actually been trying to block it as they fear it will help Cork and Galway more then Limerick and that people may simply bypass Limerick and just travel between Galway and Cork, which you have to remember are both growing faster then Limerick.

I disagree with that stance and I think Limerick will benefit from it greatly too, but in reality it will allow Cork to massively develop the north Cork region as a commuter area into Cork city.

And BTW the Cork intercity network is by far the busiest route in the country, representing 25% of all intercity traffic. Limerick is only 7%

Cork has a much better developed bus network.

Cork has a much more successful Commuter train network, that is absolutely primed for major housing development along it's lines.

Cork has a massive port right on the edge of the city, just waiting and begging for development, which will literally double the population of the city.

Truth is both cities have massive potential for growth and I hope they both do. I just think this Limerick as a second city talk is just idiotic and not supported at all by any facts and certainly doesn't help Cork and Limerick to work together to grow as an alternative to Dublin.

While I maybe a Corkonian, I actually live in Dublin and I'm aware that both Cork and Limerick are laughably small compared to Dublin and in particular the Dublin - Belfast axis where most of the growth in our nation is actually happening.

Drop the silly "second city" talk and focus on developing your city and working with Cork and Galway to develop the region as a counter balance to Dublin - Belfast.

Taytosnax wrote: »

Oh and what does the BTW phrase you use in your posts mean?

By The Way

keane2097

bk wrote: »

Hold on their a second, Cork has the second deepest natural harbour in the world!

Link?

bk

keane2097 wrote: »

Link?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork_Harbour

Though I note that I said deepest, rather then largest.

There is a reason why the Titanic and other Atlantic bound cruise shapes used the harbour.

keane2097

bk wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork_Harbour

Though I note that I said deepest, rather then largest.

There is a reason why the Titanic and other Atlantic bound cruise shapes used the harbour.

Ok it's just that I see that mentioned around the place without anyone ever saying where they got the idea from. I obviously looked on the wikipedia page already. I can lay claim to being the deepest harbour in the world myself for all the worth that has.

Closest thing I ever saw to anyone trying to verify it is here:

https://passiveimpressions.com/2014/12/15/cork-harbour-the-second-largest-in-the-world/

bk

keane2097 wrote: »

Closest thing I ever saw to anyone trying to verify it is here:

https://passiveimpressions.com/2014/12/15/cork-harbour-the-second-largest-in-the-world/

Very interesting, thanks

Taytosnax

bk wrote: »

While I maybe a Corkonian, I actually live in Dublin and I'm aware that both Cork and Limerick are laughably small compared to Dublin and in particular the Dublin - Belfast axis where most of the growth in our nation is actually happening.

Drop the silly "second city" talk and focus on developing your city and working with Cork and Galway to develop the region as a counter balance to Dublin - Belfast.

I have zero connection with Limerick, don't have a particular attachment to it, but have been involved with planning for many years and look at its potential in an entirely objective way.

The Cork-Galway-Limerick region needs to be developed as a whole, there is undoubtedly a better quality of life across the board but given that Limerick is that bit nearer to Dublin with potentially cheaper land to develop it is a better bet for expansion. Not that Cork doesn't have its benefits too. East Cork and in particular the Cork-Carraigtwohill-Midelton-Youghal axis would be ideal for further development.

I suspect your obvious antipathy to my views on Limerick are driven by Cork loyalty - nothing wrong with that. However there are serious proposals out there for Limerick expansion and in forty years time if we as a nation can get our act together and plan long term this may happen.

The East of Ireland is overcooking again and if we fall into the trap of allowing this to continue we will condemn our nation to long commutes and overcrowding in the East. Also the very real danger that we succumb to Road and private bus lobbyists and allow our rail network to wither west of the Shannon will condemn the land outside the Pale to be a mere hinterland.

Ireland has failed in the past to plan adequately because there we give a bigger voice to vested interests rather than sit back and think what is needed to secure our long term future as a nation.

We need to get away from the "managed decline" approach that has been at the heart of Irish Government policy since independence and move instead to a deliberate policy of how to cope with an expanding population of up to and even over 10 million. We have the land to do this and with the right balance we can build a sustainable economy to support this. But we need to make the right decisions now based on achievable targets and not on how we have always done things.

bk

Taytosnax wrote: »

I suspect your obvious antipathy to my views on Limerick are driven by Cork loyalty - nothing wrong with that. However there are serious proposals out there for Limerick expansion and in forty years time if we as a nation can get our act together and plan long term this may happen.

My views are driven by facts and statistics.

How can you as a supposed "planner" claim that Limerick will grow to become the "second city" when in terms of population it is so far behind Cork and it is growing at half the rate of Cork?

Hell even Galway is growing faster then Limerick!

I'm sorry but it just doesn't make any logical sense.

And of course it all ignores the reality that Belfast is really the second city of the island of Ireland.

Yes their are some great plans to continue the development and growth of Limerick, just as there are great plans to continue the development and growth of Cork. I hope they all go ahead and both cities grow. But forget about the "second city" nonsense.

Taytosnax

bk wrote: »

My views are driven by facts and statistics.

How can you as a supposed "planner" claim that Limerick will grow to become the "second city" when in terms of population it is so far behind Cork and it is growing at half the rate of Cork?

Hell even Galway is growing faster then Limerick!

I'm sorry but it just doesn't make any logical sense.

And of course it all ignores the reality that Belfast is really the second city of the island of Ireland.

Yes their are some great plans to continue the development and growth of Limerick, just as there are great plans to continue the development and growth of Cork. I hope they all go ahead and both cities grow. But forget about the "second city" nonsense.

Ok. Tell me what you do for a living and who do you work for to justify your attacks on me?

bk

Taytosnax wrote: »

Ok. Tell me what you do for a living and who do you work for to justify your attacks on me?

Why?! You are the one who is making incredulous claims about Limerick becoming the second city, with absolutely zero to back it up.

I can read CSO numbers as well as anyone. You are the one who needs to back up your claim.

D.L.R.

Taytosnax wrote: »

The East of Ireland is overcooking again and if we fall into the trap of allowing this to continue we will condemn our nation to long commutes and overcrowding in the East.

Dublin isn't overcrowded. The problem is lack of capacity in housing and transport and bad planning. Dublin is a small city. Suggesting its overcrowded is laughable.

You don't solve Dublin's problems in the West of Ireland, you solve them in Dublin.

rebel456

D.L.R. wrote: »

Dublin isn't overcrowded. The problem is lack of capacity in housing and transport and bad planning. Dublin is a small city. Suggesting its overcrowded is laughable.

You don't solve Dublin's problems in the West of Ireland, you solve them in Dublin.

Problem in Dublin is density - low rise buildings dominate on average, coupled with abysmal occupancy rates above 3rd storey (i.e. above shop living in city centre areas). If Dublin streets outside those primarily for offices had 5/6 storey buildings with apartments on each floor above the shops you'd have something similar to Paris in terms of density.

Same goes for Limerick when considering light rail - improve your bus links (bus lanes, signal priority, express routes, BRT, etc), increase density in areas of future tram stops. Then you have the case made for a Limerick LUAS. At the moment it's another shiny new Celtic Tiger-esque grand idea that local politicians will peddle to the punters for years to come.

Pete_Cavan

Why is it that when we talk about public transport improvements, people immediately jump to light rail? Given the existing network, surely Limerick has good potential for heavy rail based commuter services. With relatively small investment, the existing heavy rail lines could provide a pretty decent network, serving numerous residential and commercial areas, as well as the city centre. There is also scope for further development around this. The main limiting factor is that all lines approach Colbert from the same side so through services can't operate.

The existing motorways around the city also lend themselves to feeding traffic to Park and Ride stations for onward travel into the city centre. There could be P&Rs around Cratloe, Annscotty and Patrickswell. I have said before that, as part of the M20 project, a rail link should be created along side the motorway from Charleville to Patrickswell.