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Can You Drive Alone On A Provisional In Ireland?

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135

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    #62
    branie2
    Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭branie2


    You can't


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    #63
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,414 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    That's non disclosure and you will end up a world of trouble.

    When you take out a policy you will be asked to send in a copy of your drivers licence and the insurer will see the points on it.
    Do you mean they will cross reference your driver number (from your licence) with the penalty points database as points are not physically recorded on the licence itself?

    Afaik you can get points even if you do not hold a licence - they can be recorded against a 'virtual licence' and then applied whenever you eventually do get a licence.


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    #64
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    bluewolf wrote: »
    I never drove alone on a provisional. I think it's very irresponsible to do so. If you're that great a driver, go and pass your test

    Same. The amount of people, including driving instructors, who told me "ah you'll be grand, everybody does it", even getting annoyed/frustrated cause I wouldn't drive alone to the test centre to meet them for my pre tests/lessons. It was extremely frustrating for me because I was obeying the law and expecting them to do their job properly and paying them for it- and they were acting like I was such an inconvenience.

    Found a decent instructor who at least tolerated me obeying the law- had a couple of instances where I had to state "no, it's illegal for me to drive alone" before he'd accept it, passed first time with only two grade 1 marks.

    It would be extremely easy to just obey the law otherwise. It shouldn't be the driving instructors that make it difficult for learners to do so.


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    #65
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    FishOnABike wrote: »
    Do you mean they will cross reference your driver number (from your licence) with the penalty points database as points are not physically recorded on the licence itself?

    Afaik you can get points even if you do not hold a licence - they can be recorded against a 'virtual licence' and then applied whenever you eventually do get a licence.

    No I mean that any points/restrictions/endorsements you receive will be noted on the licence so anyone looking at it, which we do in detail, will spot them.

    At the end of the day insurance works on the principal of Utmost Good Faith and it has to work both ways. You purchase a policy from me in good faith that I've done my job and given you what you need but equally I have sold it to you in good faith that you haven't withheld anything from me.


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    #66
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,414 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    No I mean that any points/restrictions/endorsements you receive will be noted on the licence so anyone looking at it, which we do in detail, will spot them.

    I'd have to question that. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/penalty_points_for_driving_offences.html

    Quote - "While penalty points are endorsed on your driving licence, the points do not physically appear on the licence. Instead, your penalty points are recorded on your driving licence record. Driving licence records are held on the National Vehicle and Driver File operated by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport."

    In the case of a fixed charge penalty points the points are applied to the driving licence record once the fixed charge penalty is paid. The practice I have seen in the district court is, on conviction of a penalty point offence, to photocopy the driving licence so as to notify the NVDF to apply the points to the driving licence record.

    The points only exist on file / as a record in a database.


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    #67
    Sue Pa Key Pa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭Sue Pa Key Pa


    Just a point of clarification. A policy is never automatically 'void' for breaching policy conditions. It is voidable at the discretion of the insurer. In other words, the insurer would need to act on their rights. In theory, they could agree to honour the contract in full, though unlikely.


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    #68
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    No it's not. You're breaking the law so the policy is likely to be void/cancelled.

    I've worked in Insurance ............. if driving unaccompanied, the Learner Driver is guilty of a criminal offence, but they are still Insured.

    It's exactly the same if you don't obey the rules of the road and drink & drive or break a red light ........ you're guilty of an offence but are still covered. It's the same case with a Learner driving unaccompanied. It has nothing really to do with Insurance.

    However, some Insurance Companies may include a clause stating that their Insurance would be invalidated if they were unaccompanied. But, generally speaking, those conditions do not appear in Standard Policies.

    Basically, if a Learner Driver is at fault in a crash while driving unaccompanied, claims will continue to be handled by his/her Insurer as normal.


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    #69
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    AidanadiA wrote: »
    I was in with Insurance Ireland getting a quote and they told me their policy is null and void if L plates or N plates aren't displayed.

    So just go with an Insurer who doesn't have that clause in their Policies ..........


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    #70
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    No I mean that any points/restrictions/endorsements you receive will be noted on the licence so anyone looking at it, which we do in detail, will spot them.

    At the end of the day insurance works on the principal of Utmost Good Faith and it has to work both ways. You purchase a policy from me in good faith that I've done my job and given you what you need but equally I have sold it to you in good faith that you haven't withheld anything from me.

    What? Penalty Points don't physically appear on a Driver's Licence ........ :confused:


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    #71
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    I've worked in Insurance ............. if driving unaccompanied, the Learner Driver is guilty of a criminal offence, but they are still Insured.

    It's exactly the same if you don't obey the rules of the road and drink & drive or break a red light ........ you're guilty of an offence but are still covered. It's the same case with a Learner driving unaccompanied. It has nothing really to do with Insurance.

    However, some Insurance Companies may include a clause stating that their Insurance would be invalidated if they were unaccompanied. But, generally speaking, those conditions do not appear in Standard Policies.

    Basically, if a Learner Driver is at fault in a crash while driving unaccompanied, claims will continue to be handled by his/her Insurer as normal.

    Thank you, I think the people saying it's "null/void" are just full of **** at this stage. It has been explained to them multiple times by multiple people and I don't know if they're somehow trying to be well-meaning or not but it's getting annoying. It is false and incorrect to state that it's "null/void". It's also irresponsible to claim that many people are out there driving with no effective insurance when it's not true.


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    #72
    Sue Pa Key Pa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭Sue Pa Key Pa


    paleoperson wrote: »
    Thank you, I think the people saying it's "null/void" are just full of **** at this stage. It has been explained to them multiple times by multiple people and I don't know if they're somehow trying to be well-meaning or not but it's getting annoying. It is false and incorrect to state that it's "null/void". It's also irresponsible to claim that many people are out there driving with no effective insurance when it's not true.

    Don't be so certain of that. The 3rd party will always be covered by your insurer if they suffer from your actions. However, they can seek recovery from you and decline any own damage if they have it in your wording. They may also cancel your policy which will have long term effects on you

    There is a world of difference between being covered and insurers meeting the requirements of the RTA.


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    #73
    AidanadiA
    Registered Users Posts: 145 ✭✭AidanadiA


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    So just go with an Insurer who doesn't have that clause in their Policies ..........

    Nah, I just did what I was meant to and put up my plates and only drove with my sponsor. Less than a year left with my N plate, I might miss it when its gone.

    I do get what you are saying, I was going on what an insurer had told me about their policy but it makes sense. It had concerned me a great deal thinking of learners and novices being uninsured, thank you for clearing it up.


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    #74
    Sue Pa Key Pa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭Sue Pa Key Pa


    AidanadiA wrote: »
    Nah, I just did what I was meant to and put up my plates and only drove with my sponsor. Less than a year left with my N plate, I might miss it when its gone.

    I do get what you are saying, I was going on what an insurer had told me about their policy but it makes sense. It had concerned me a great deal thinking of learners and novices being uninsured, thank you for clearing it up.

    The cover is there for 3rd parties but there may be significant consequences for the driver not adhering to the terms of their Permit


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    #75
    Iseedeadpixels
    Registered Users Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Iseedeadpixels


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    What? Penalty Points don't physically appear on a Driver's Licence ........ :confused:

    Insurers can check, lets say you hit someone and you claim for your car etc, the investigator can request your records from whoever issues the points (someone please tell me does as its too early for my brain to work :P ) and can use that against you.


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    #76
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Iseedeadpixels wrote: »
    Insurers can check, lets say you hit someone and you claim for your car etc, the investigator can request your records from whoever issues the points (someone please tell me does as its too early for my brain to work :P ) and can use that against you.

    But that's not what I was saying .......... I was responding to a Poster who claimed that he/she could look at the physical Driver's Licence to check for Penalty Points, Endorsements etc. which isn't the case as they don't physically appear on the Licence.


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    #77
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »
    The cover is there for 3rd parties but there may be significant consequences for the driver not adhering to the terms of their Permit

    Sorry but you're simply wrong .......... the only way an Insurance Policy can be invalidated (in the scenario we are discussing) is if there's a Clause in the Policy itself, which most Standard Insurance Policies do not have, explicitly stating that the Policy will become "null & void under x circumstances" .......... otherwise the Claim is handled as normal while the Gardai deal with any criminal offences relating to the incident/accident separately.


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    #78
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,354 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Just note to any 'L's out there don't drive on motorways because you'd find your self in bother if your accompanied or not.


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    #79
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    Just note to any 'L's out there don't drive on motorways because you'd find your self in bother if your accompanied or not.

    The reason the Gardai don't randomly pull drivers with L/N Plates driving unaccompanied (Motorway or otherwise) is for the simple reason that a vehicle displaying an L/N Plate could be, and in a lot of cases is, a shared vehicle, ie. Mother/Father with Daughter/Son or Husband/Wife etc. with one driver holding a Full Licence whilst the other driver has a Learner Permit .......... the Gardai simply don't have the time or motivation to constantly stop vehicles with L/N Plates.


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    #80
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,354 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    The reason the Gardai don't randomly pull drivers with L/N Plates driving unaccompanied (Motorway or otherwise) is for the simple reason that a vehicle displaying an L/N Plate could be, and in a lot of cases is, a shared vehicle, ie. Mother/Father with Daughter/Son or Husband/Wife etc. with one driver holding a Full Licence whilst the other driver has a Learner Permit .......... the Gardai simply don't have the time or motivation to constantly stop vehicles with L/N Plates.

    I know that and in the past you were fine but in the last few years they Gardai are having multi agency checkpoints on motorways and you could get caught out.


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    #81
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    Absolutely illegal and I never ever did it.

    Just as I never ever drove a Hino with a fridge body sitting on a fish box with an old man cap on when I was thirteen.


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    #82
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #83
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #84
    Sue Pa Key Pa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭Sue Pa Key Pa


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Sorry but you're simply wrong .......... the only way an Insurance Policy can be invalidated (in the scenario we are discussing) is if there's a Clause in the Policy itself, which most Standard Insurance Policies do not have, explicitly stating that the Policy will become "null & void under x circumstances" .......... otherwise the Claim is handled as normal while the Gardai deal with any criminal offences relating to the incident/accident separately.

    I never said the policy was invalidated, Also, breaking a clause will not automatically allow a policy become "null and void", as you state. It just allows the insurer activate the cancellation clause under the policy and the process is strictly laid out


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    #85
    Iseedeadpixels
    Registered Users Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Iseedeadpixels


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    But that's not what I was saying .......... I was responding to a Poster who claimed that he/she could look at the physical Driver's Licence to check for Penalty Points, Endorsements etc. which isn't the case as they don't physically appear on the Licence.

    Oh yes sorry my bad.


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    #86
    Lia_lia
    Registered Users Posts: 6,691 ✭✭✭Lia_lia


    I must admit I did it while I was waiting on a date for my driving test. For about 3 months. Only really to and from work (about 3KM). And the odd time from Cork to Kerry and back. Passed the test first time with only 2 grade 2s. Often passed Gardai with my L plates and they never said anything.

    I do think it built my confidence and everyone said to do it. My instructor hinted at it but never really encouraged it.. Still think the law should be enforced though. I wouldn't encourage other people to break the law...

    Also think it's absolutely ridiculous that Learners can't go on motorways (accompanied!). How can anyone learn to drive on one otherwise. Many towns in Ireland do not have dual carriageways to practise merging etc on. I insisted on getting an instructor to take me out on a 120KM/hr dual carriageway in Cork once I had all my 12 lessons finished (before I passed my test) ...just because I wanted to learn how to drive on a dual carriageway/motorway properly.


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    #87
    solerina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭solerina


    FizzleSticks wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.




    Nothing happens,
    my 17 year old neighbour was involved in a reasonably serious crash while driving alone on a learners permit gardai were called etc. Nothing happened to her, she took her test and got her full licence 6 ish months after the accident


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    #88
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,354 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    solerina wrote: »
    Nothing happens,
    my 17 year old neighbour was involved in a reasonably serious crash while driving alone on a learners permit gardai were called etc. Nothing happened to her, she took her test and got her full licence 6 ish months after the accident

    Was anybody injured?
    How do you know for sure she wasn't given points/etc?


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    #89
    Canyon86
    Registered Users Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Canyon86


    AidanadiA wrote: »
    If you drive on a provisional licence without a sponsor/full licence holder your insurance policy is null and void, also if you don't have your L/N plates on display.

    I passed my driving test last year, during the time I had my provisional licence I never drove with out my sponsor and the car always had L plates on.

    I was in a crash as a learner , other driver 100% in the wrong, had no issues at all with insurance , in fact my policy was reduced by 50 euro , AXA BTW

    I guess each insurer has its own policy's :)


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    #90
    Sue Pa Key Pa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭Sue Pa Key Pa


    Canyon86 wrote: »
    I was in a crash as a learner , other driver 100% in the wrong, had no issues at all with insurance , in fact my policy was reduced by 50 euro , AXA BTW

    I guess each insurer has its own policy's :)

    If the other driver was at fault, you wouldn't be asking your insurer to provide you with indemnity, so they wouldn't have had an issue with you.


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    #91
    yerwanthere123
    Registered Users, Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,349 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    Currently driving on a learner permit and have been driving in my own car for about 18 months. I've been stopped five times in this 18 months, twice to check my insurance/tax (which has always been up to date), and three times to check my license. I've never been given any points or fines, although was one made report to the local Garda station.


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