Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

dfx-

It's obvious. You can influence the PSO services, these are PSO services, so you can oppose them to be like other PSO services, currently operated by the incumbent operator.

What the incumbent operator does on non-PSO services has nothing to do with it.

theskeptic

I think it is time for us - in particular the media - to stop referring to change in terms of left or right wing politics/philosophies. It would be more useful to categorise politicians and proposed changes as either progressive or "radical" conservative.

Progressives:

* Let's look at problem X and try applying some new ideas and ones that work in similar countries.
* We won't get everything right - the more new things we try, the more mistakes will be made.
* We'll learn from our (and others') mistakes and tweak the solution or try another new solution.

Radical Conservatives:

* That new bus colour is wrong.
* I don't like the economic model of that transport company.
* Mrs Jones will have to walk another 50m to her bus.
* That proposed new building would be too high.
* We can't build an underground because that would result in a hole in the ground.
* I say I don't like the status quo but I'll scare the voters about any change and tell them I am here to protect them and make sure nothing changes.

Politicians of all parties (so called left and right) straddle the radical conservative / progressive divide. Until people (and the media) start analysing all politicians in terms of RC/P, we are doomed to do very little in this country; including radically improving our public transport.

KD345

devnull wrote: »

This suggests that either the people who stated such on this thread believethat the same requirements don't apply or are not needed for potential disabled patrons using ta premium airport service, ultimately creating a two tier system within DBs portfolio of services or that there is another reason that they object to the blue livery that is brighter than the dark green one DB saw fit to use for ten years.

To be fair, the Airlink and Aircoach are deliberately two tier, that’s the very reason for their existence. Everything about them is different, from their corporate livery, higher fares, express route and frequency.

You’re absolutely right that there is an obvious contradiction here, how can a company concerned about visibility on their vehicles leave a number of them in dark green. However, you’re not comparing like with like, the commercial arm of Dublin Bus has a different agenda to the rest of the company. Somewhere along the line they felt a dark green vehicle was the right look for their commercial vehicles to compete against their rivals - for example, you’ll often hear people taking the blue bus or green bus to or from the airport. It is difficult to market something as a superior product when it looks the exact same as a regular service vehicle.

To go back to the point of PSO vehicles, I can understand the concerns of disability groups, and as awful as the new revised Go Ahead looks, I feel it was the right thing to do. It’s a shame we’ve had so much drama about this when the NTA could have prevented it.

devnull

KD345 wrote: »

To be fair, the Airlink and Aircoach are deliberately two tier, that’s the very reason for their existence. Everything about them is different, from their corporate livery, higher fares, express route and frequency.

But I wasn't talking about two tiers of services being offered across different companies. I was talking about a single company who divides by choice their own services into two tiers in relation to assisting the visually impaired.

You’re absolutely right that there is an obvious contradiction here, how can a company concerned about visibility on their vehicles leave a number of them in dark green. However, you’re not comparing like with like, the commercial arm of Dublin Bus has a different agenda to the rest of the company.

I have worked in a previous role where we have fulfilled contracts on behalf of the public sector as well as contracts which are purely commercial and the company I worked for had a strong set of values which we applied throughout both types of contracts, because the values were important to us and we would never sacrifice them because we held them so dear. I just am a principled person and believe if values are really important you stick to them all the time.

If that we are saying that Dublin Bus considers that taking actions to assist those who have visual impairments is lower of the agenda of the commercial operations rather than the PSO operations, they that would suggest that people believe the values in Dublin Bus as a whole in relation to serving these people are not as high as was claimed a few pages back, since they believe we have a two tier system when it comes to serving these people.

Somewhere along the line they felt a dark green vehicle was the right look for their commercial vehicles to compete against their rivals - for example, you’ll often hear people taking the blue bus or green bus to or from the airport. It is difficult to market something as a superior product when it looks the exact same as a regular service vehicle.

You do realise that they could have chosen another bright colour? The choice wasn't between the PSO livery and a dark green livery. There are lots of different liveries that they could have used which would still have been distinctive and would have allowed them to stand out, without having to disregard the principles that we are told are present throughout the company as a whole. which it seems actually are not.

To go back to the point of PSO vehicles, I can understand the concerns of disability groups, and as awful as the new revised Go Ahead looks, I feel it was the right thing to do. It’s a shame we’ve had so much drama about this when the NTA could have prevented it.

So if it is the case then surely Dublin Bus won't have any problems in painting the vehicles the same, If we're told wanting to keep the yellow is simply about helping the visually impaired and disabled? Especially considering the blue on the front of the TFI livery is very visible where the dark DB Blue is not so visible on a night and that is a clear way to help the disabled that we are told by posters on here that they are so passionate (on PSO services anyway) about.

Stephen15

How the new livery will look from the front, on the single deckers and with the TFI logo applied. I assume this is the final version.

Reminds me a bit of the old Airlink livery with the green and yellow combination.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

How the new livery will look from the front, on the single deckers and with the TFI logo applied. I assume this is the final version.

Reminds me a bit of the old Airlink livery with the green and yellow combination.

It actually looks better on the nearside than it does on the far-side on the double deckers. The TFI logo really stands out now and I'm sure that is the silver lining to the cloud that has been hanging over the NTA offices in relation to this whole ridiculous situation which has happened at the last minute.

On the single decker it looks better, wonder if they could have just had more blue on the side of the bus rather than so much yellow and just gone for the yellow at the front, more like the single decker?

SG317

devnull wrote:

You do realise that they could have chosen another bright colour? The choice wasn't between the PSO livery and a dark green livery. There are lots of different liveries that they could have used which would still have been distinctive and would have allowed them to stand out, without having to disregard the principles that we are told are present throughout the company as a whole. which it seems actually are not.

You clearly have an anti-Dublin Bus Agenda, as you consistently keep going on about the Airlink Livery and how Dublin Bus according to you "are operating a two tier system" . Your claim that Dublin Bus don't care about the visually impaired is ridiculous, for instance Dublin Bus could have chosen a Grey/Purple Livery and there would have been little anyone could do about it. Look at the Luas that was launched roughly around the same time as the Dublin Bus Livery, its colour scheme was a Greyish Purple that is not the most visibility friendly colour and the Luas is a PSO service not a commercial service. It was only a few years later the yellow stripes were added to make it more visible at night and more visible for the visually impaired. However, Dublin Bus carried out an extensive consultation with all relevant disability groups and created a livery that they were all happy with. Bare in mind Dublin Bus could have chosen any livery they wanted, but they went for the yellow as this is one of the easiest colours for people with visual impairments to see.

And regarding the Airlink, that is a different brand to the Dublin Bus essentially like Do Dublin, it's run by Dublin Bus but it's a commercial service and is separate from the PSO services, so the branding will obviously be different. The Airlink is also a mix of Light and Dark Green, it's not just dark green as you keep claiming. The vehicles also have yellow handrails, something the initial NTA livery didn't have. So if anything it's not Dublin Bus operating a two tier system but rather it's you who is operating a two tier system, as you are holding Dublin Bus to some extreme scrutiny that you aren't holding the NTA to.

devnull

Route 175 is now on the Go-Ahead website with the following note

Go-Ahead Ireland is delighted to launch their first bus route, the 175, running from UCD to Citywest. This 24 km route, will pick passengers up from 65 stops (from UCD to Citywest), 63 stops (from Citywest to UCD) and will be serviced a fleet of 9 buses and 19 Go-Ahead Ireland drivers.

They're also linking to the Transport for Ireland Journey planner, which will allow people to access journey planning information from all bus, rail and tram bus services. Lets hope that Dublin Bus follow soon since LUAS already do this.

devnull

SG317 wrote: »

And regarding the Airlink, that is a different brand to the Dublin Bus essentially like Do Dublin, its run by Dublin Bus but its a commercial service and is separate from the PSO services, so the branding will obviously be different. The Airlink is also a mix of Light and Dark Green, it's not just dark green as you keep claiming.

The fact is though, Airlink is a part of Dublin Bus and if you hold values strong enough, you hold them throughout your company, not just keep to them for some of your activities and disregard them for others. They could have picked another bright colour, there are many of them, and not used dark green at all but they chose not to. That's a fact also too.

The bottom of the vehicles is dark green and it's hard to see from the front at night, especially for the visually impaired. The original NTA livery from the front was brighter and we are told that the NTA livery is too dark at the front, despite being brighter than Airlink so therefore it stands to reason that the Airlink livery is too dark too if we are being consistent with our points.

Anyway, this is going round in circles, so we'll have to agree to disagree I guess, since I certainly understand where you are coming from even if I don't agree with it myself.

The vehicles also have yellow handrails, something the initial NTA livery didn't have.

You will notice that I haven't even mentioned yellow handrails at all - the NTA made a mistake with this and the idea of having silver handrails on a bus was certainly a mistake on their part, so you're not going to see me defend them on that, they should rightly be slammed for this stupid amateur mistake.

KD345

devnull wrote: »

But I wasn't talking about two tiers of services being offered across different companies. I was talking about a single company who divides by choice their own services into two tiers in relation to assisting the visually impaired.

I have worked in a previous role where we have fulfilled contracts on behalf of the public sector as well as contracts which are purely commercial and the company I worked for had a strong set of values which we applied throughout both types of contracts, because the values were important to us and we would never sacrifice them because we held them so dear. I just am a principled person and believe if values are really important you stick to them all the time.

If that we are saying that Dublin Bus considers that taking actions to assist those who have visual impairments is lower of the agenda of the commercial operations rather than the PSO operations, they that would suggest that people believe the values in Dublin Bus as a whole in relation to serving these people are not as high as was claimed a few pages back, since they believe we have a two tier system when it comes to serving these people.

You do realise that they could have chosen another bright colour? The choice wasn't between the PSO livery and a dark green livery. There are lots of different liveries that they could have used which would still have been distinctive and would have allowed them to stand out, without having to disregard the principles that we are told are present throughout the company as a whole. which it seems actually are not.

So if it is the case then surely Dublin Bus won't have any problems in painting the vehicles the same, If we're told wanting to keep the yellow is simply about helping the visually impaired and disabled? Especially considering the blue on the front of the TFI livery is very visible where the dark DB Blue is not so visible on a night and that is a clear way to help the disabled that we are told by posters on here that they are so passionate (on PSO services anyway) about.

I don’t disagree with any of your points, but this is a commercially run service competing with other private brands and operators. I’m guessing they did marketing research which showed a gap in the market for a green Airport express bus and ran with it. They may view this service differently to their regular routes. It would not be uncommon for companies to have different policies and priorities for different sections of their business.

The Airlink livery is due an update. The current design was for a different type of vehicle, and the swish design has become patchy and has lost much of it’s sleek look. Perhaps Dublin Bus will decide to opt for a brighter colour in the future.

john boye

SG317 wrote: »

However, Dublin Bus carried out an extensive consultation with all relevant disability groups and created a livery that they were all happy with.

They didn't. They wanted a white livery but weren't set in stone on it. I was working for a company who they approached at the time for ideas with the design work. They didn't go with us ultimately but There was no mention whatsoever in the proposals of the livery having to be visible to people with disabilities, that is a myth which has grown and grown over the years, and they were open to all suggestions for colours. The white was shot down by maintenance dept who suggested yellow as an alternative.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

It actually looks better on the nearside than it does on the far-side on the double deckers. The TFI logo really stands out now and I'm sure that is the silver lining to the cloud that has been hanging over the NTA offices in relation to this whole ridiculous situation which has happened at the last minute.

On the single decker it looks better, wonder if they could have just had more blue on the side of the bus rather than so much yellow and just gone for the yellow at the front, more like the single decker?

I suppose the argument was that the yellow covers the same proportion of the single decker as it does on the double decker. It's a bit better than I first thought in the first pictures I saw where it looked awful but I'm still not a huge fan it looks ok I suppose.

I can see why they have made the changes even if it does make the livery less attractive however I still think it's better than the current DB livery also ads and the TFI logo should mask up the yellow on the drivers side.

GM228

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

If you set up a bus company tomorrow with only a coach with no wheelchair accessibility, because you're private, nobody can tell you that you have to have wheelchair access.

But when it's a public obligation then yes it's a different situation completely.

But in airlinks case, they could essentially, if they wanted to, change their whole airlink fleet to ford transits with no wheelchair access, and any colour they wanted.

That is set to change, in March 2018 the Government finally (after 11 years having signed it in 2007) ratified the UN Convention on Rights of Persons with Disabilities, it came into force on 19th April.

One of the provisions of the convention is that ANY company operating a service to the public will have to provide wheelchair accessible vehicles weather they be private or public owned/operated.

There will obviously be derogations for existing non compliant operators (and naturally enough non wheelchair taxis), but any existing operator can't get rid of the facility and any new operator will have to be wheelchair compliant.

The state now has obligations under International Law to ensure this happens and any action by a company offering a service to the public which denies these rights will be breaching a persons fundamental rights.

Stephen15

GM228 wrote: »

There will obviously be derogations for existing non compliant operators (and naturally enough non wheelchair taxis), but any existing operator can't get rid of the facility and any new operator will have to be wheelchair compliant.

Will this mean any taxi driver which currently drives a wheelchair accesible one won't be allowed switch it for a non wheelchair accesible one?

GM228

Stephen15 wrote: »

Will this mean any taxi driver which currently drives a wheelchair accesible one won't be allowed switch it for a non wheelchair accesible one?

No, taxis will be exempt I believe.

Stephen15

I should hope the livery for the GA routes currently operated by BE will also have yellow in their livery and also the tendered BE Waterford City Routes. It should also now be extended to the 139.

john boye

Is there anything to be said for painting the teal stripe yellow too? Even just on one vehicle to see how it looks. Or if you're feeling really adventurous, turn both stripes towards the rear rather than the front and have one white and one yellow?

Stephen15

Another thing have noticed in the pictures that bars at the front of the buses are still silver/grey on DB buses these bars are painted navy. Should these bars on Go-Ahead buses not have to be painted a darker colour such as navy or black in order to contrast with the yellow.

GM228

Stephen15 wrote: »

Another thing have noticed in the pictures that bars at the front of the buses are still silver/grey on DB buses these bars are painted navy. Should these bars on Go-Ahead buses not have to be painted a darker colour such as navy or black in order to contrast with the yellow.

Bars? Do you mean the Wrights styled grilles, all the GA buses have had these supplied silver as opposed to the DB buses, it is possible they are chromed and not suitable for repainting as I have noticed some repainted ex DB buses with them colour coordinated.

Stephen15

GM228 wrote: »

Bars? Do you mean the Wrights styled grilles, all the GA buses have had these supplied silver as opposed to the DB buses, it is possible they are chromed and not suitable for repainting as I have noticed some repainted ex DB buses with them colour coordinated.

No I'm talking about the handrails at the front of the passenger saloon around the Leap validators and the drivers cab which are painted navy on DB buses.

punisher5112

Stephen15 wrote: »

No I'm talking about the handrails at the front of the passenger saloon around the Leap validators and the drivers cab which are painted navy on DB buses.

Reason for this is to cut down on reflection or shine from them as they shine off the windscreen.

Kh1993

Fairly strange one: Brand new DB Yellow stops gone into the ground along the Kilbarrack end of the 17a route, which is due to swap to GA in a couple of months. Waste of resources or something I don't know?

dublinman1990

New timetable layouts for the 175 are appearing in the shelters. Looks really good; but no fare information is available.

devnull

dublinman1990 wrote: »

New timetable layouts for the 175 are appearing in the shelters. Looks really good; but no fare information is available.

Well that's very nice and integrated and I really like that layout, it's similar to the LUAS one, just with using the blue colour rather than the purple one and I think it really makes the whole "Colour by Mode" policy of the NTA show it's worth.

Have to say having a list of the stops on the route is a step forward and the general layout is really nice and much more slick than anything we've seen before. Are the times from the terminus or for the actual stop? If the later that's a big step forward.

Agree though it should show fares - couldn't they just show the fare zones by showing the first stage boundary in white, with a little note to say the cash/leap fare, the second in a light grey shading and the third in white like below?

dublinman1990

These timetables from the photo above are a huge step forward from the previous ones. It now displays the predicted time the bus reaches the stop and also has a QR code for times.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

Have to say having a list of the stops on the route is a step forward and the general layout is really nice and much more slick than anything we've seen before. Are the times from the terminus or for the actual stop? If the later that's a big step forward.

+1 it appears it is stop specific information as it appears to only mention the destination of the buses shown and not the origin of the services if it is not then that is confusing as it does not mention where the bus has originated from. Hopefully if it is stop specific information the times posted at the stops are accurate and just guesstimations.

XPS_Zero

Stephen15 wrote: »

To be fair many of the "disability activists" have only popped out of the woodwork since the new livery and bus connects was announced. They are using people with disabilities as a battering ram to object to NTA proposals such as tendering and bus connects. They are only concerned as it suits their agenda. You don't hear much of them when people park up on the pavement.

Any time there is major plan to progress something in this country there will be some astroturf group or even worse a real group suddenly popping up to oppose it strongly. Remember a few MINOR diversions and bends taken out of the likes of the 7 route meaning a slightly longer walk to a bus stop for a tiny number of passengers with a huge 10 min saving of journey times and they were all up in arms...f**K the rest of the people, what aboout ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME my little estate does not have a bus every 6 minutes and I've to walk slightly longer WA WA WA WA WA! There are no other people in the world except ME!

"the new Dublin-LA direct service has been postponed as the people of the town of Ballykisssmearse have launched a major protest that a Knock like airport was not constructed in their town alongside a built in stopover for the new route - local TD , Publican, lawyer, construction company owner, and secondary school teacher Billy Cumonouttadat said today 'they claim this is an express service, but it's not very express for the people of Ballykissmearse is it? Why was no thought given to Ballykissmearse? I tell you why coz it's nat Dublin dats why dey only care 'bout dem up in Dublin I tell ye so dey do, we need to be included on dis route, there are two peeple in diz area who assure me in the strongest possible terms dat dey would love to pop ovar te Compton for a pint a milk n a paaapar but because Ballykissmeararse is nat included dey're shut out, SHUT OUT I tell ye! it's a disgrace!', the minister has halted the route and embarked on a 6 month review which should be completed by 2065 in time for the 169th reannouncement of Dart Underground and the Dublin Metro"

.G.

john boye wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for painting the teal stripe yellow too? Even just on one vehicle to see how it looks. Or if you're feeling really adventurous, turn both stripes towards the rear rather than the front and have one white and one yellow?

Was thinking the same myself regarding the teal stripe. It really doesn't fit with the rest of the livery now. It should be yellow too and the yellow on the side should flow in the same direction as the other two stripes, so from the top front corner sweeping down to the bottom just behind the front wheel. Then it'd be fine IMO.

n!ghtmancometh

Will my tax saver leap card work on the GA operated routes?

xper

dublinman1990 wrote: »

New timetable layouts for the 175 are appearing in the shelters. Looks really good; but no fare information is available.

Yeah, saw one of these in person earlier today. Good layout. Only criticism I would have is the the overemphasis on differentiating the operators - TFI should be doing everything they can to make sure customers understand that the Go-Ahead and Dublin Bus routes are all part of a combined city service. What happens at stops also used by Bus Eireann, Aircoach and other private operators?