Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

AngryLips

Slightly off topic but I see a lot of Bus Eireann routes are adopting the TFI livery, does anyone know what the story is with that? Will it eventually be all TFI funded buses or just certain types of routes? Seems to be mostly town services.

punisher5112

AngryLips wrote: »

Slightly off topic but I see a lot of Bus Eireann routes are adopting the TFI livery, does anyone know what the story is with that? Will it eventually be all TFI funded buses or just certain types of routes? Seems to be mostly town services.

This is any new vehicles from now on.

GM228

devnull wrote: »

There has recently been discussions about this with the NTA.

This has led to the NTA approving changing the route to double deck, using some extra 2019 vehicles that have recently been allocated to GAI from the NTA. There are still two outstanding (11089/11090) which should follow shortly which is probably the two vehicles that they are talking about in the notice.

They are now down a DD after one (ex DB SG252) suffered structural damage the other day when the stabilizers of a truck went through the rear of it. Potential main frame damage.

.G.

GM228 wrote: »

They are now down a DD after one (ex DB SG252) suffered structural damage the other day when the stabilizers of a truck went through the rear of it. Potential main frame damage.

Dublin Fire Brigade posted photos of the aftermath on Twitter

https://twitter.com/DubFireBrigade/status/1169238357379092480

dfx-

StreetLight wrote: »

Took them long enough to recognise the bloody obvious.

It's getting near the end of their very long "grace period" isn't it...

dashcamdanny

GM228 wrote: »

They are now down a DD after one (ex DB SG252) suffered structural damage the other day when the stabilizers of a truck went through the rear of it. Potential main frame damage.

That bus was a ball of scrap long before it was hit by a truck.

AlekSmart

StreetLight wrote: »

Took them long enough to recognise the bloody obvious.

The wording of the Memo is indeed interesting,as it specifically references the term "Interworking".

The use of Interworking or Interlining (as it is known in other Go-Ahead operations) has been one of the prime causes of negative customer experience following their startup.

The admission that the Company are,at least dispensing with it on the 102,should ensure that they recognise reality in respect of their other routes also.

I understand that the Go-Ahead Management Principle focuses on allowing their operating companies a high level of autonomy,but their very recent experience in Singapore,should have been ringing alarm bells before the embarked on the exact same policy in an Irish scenario,which was operationally very similar to Singapore.

https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/go-ahead-singapore-sub-contracts-sbs-and-smrt-due-higher-expected-staff-attrition

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/go-ahead-cuts-back-on-multiple-routes-for-drivers-after-high-att-7832580

The number of drivers who have left is fewer than 20, said a Go-Ahead spokesperson in response to queries, and did so because they had difficulties adjusting to the operator’s “interlining” model, which requires bus captains to drive a number of different routes during the week, instead of one single route.

“It’s a very flexible business model which will benefit us and commuters as well, because (our) bus captains know how to drive a number of services. But because it’s a new concept in Singapore (in) the bus market, it’s not very popular with our bus captains,” said the spokesperson.
Read more at https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/go-ahead-singapore-sub-contracts-sbs-and-smrt-due-higher-expected-staff-attrition

Interlining,being largely focused upon accountancy based principles of efficiency,is largely disliked by humans when superimposed upon shift-work based mobile staff such as Busdrivers,which also had to be addressed by GA-Singapore to retain it's Driving Grade Staff...

Go-Ahead, which now has 661 bus captains, has also altered its schedules after feedback from the bus captains. Since Sunday, for instance, bus captains have been operating one trunk service per day instead of two.

“These revised schedules will better meet staff needs at the same time as retaining operational efficiencies,” said its spokesperson.

Why GAI Management felt this policy could then be imposed on Irish staff,without repercussions may point to a communications shortcoming between GA Operating Subsidaries,or perhaps even a lack of NTA comprehension of their preferred operational "model",particularly as the other Singapore Tender winner,Tower Transit from London,England decided NOT to be as insistent on Interlining for it's tendered routes.

Interlining arrangements are common in the United Kingdom, where Go-Ahead and Tower Transit — the Republic’s two newest public bus operators — are headquartered.

Tower Transit, which started operating 26 bus services here in May, adopts a “conservative amount” of interlining in Singapore, said its group communications director Glenn Lim. “(Interlining) is not out of the ordinary in London, but is entirely new to Singapore … Naturally with any new model, it takes some getting used to. Tower Transit’s bus captains have taken quite well to it.”

Not surprisingly perhaps,Tower Transit had a smoother transition during it's takeup,but equally the incumbent SBS company went on to retain later tender packages in the Singaporean Bus Market Opening procedure.

ax586

So GAI are not being fined at all

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/private-bus-firm-go-ahead-avoids-fines-over-failures-to-allow-bedding-in-1.4011728?mode=amp

L1011

Rare I'd agree with Boyd Barrett but it is inappropriate to not levy the fines when the circumstances were entirely within GAIs control.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Interlining arrangements are common in the United Kingdom, where Go-Ahead and Tower Transit — the Republic’s two newest public bus operators — are headquartered.

What routes are Tower operating here?

devnull

The NTA has recently deducted a payment from Go-Ahead Ireland but didn't for the previous performance round as the bedding in perior has come to an end and that was reported previously.

There was a bedding in period in the contract regardless of who won it, if it was Dublin Bus who were victorious or any other operator it would have been exactly the same thing. BE, DB and GAI have all recently missed their targets by the way, in some cases in some periods by more than GAI.

Saying that someone said something in July using it as a fact in the present, and ignoring what happened between that time despite the fact something may have changed is the typical kind of spin I expect from PBP.

It's like me saying that my record is the best selling record in the country and using sales figures from two months ago to prove it and ignoring the fact that I've since been overtaken by whoever the next big manufactured thing is.

interactive

The private operator attributed problems meeting its targets to “higher than expected driver resignations”.
So we can expect no improvements in the coming months as GAI are still bleeding staff.

dfx-

devnull wrote: »

The NTA has recently deducted a payment from Go-Ahead Ireland but didn't for the previous performance round as the bedding in perior has come to an end and that was reported previously.

There was a bedding in period in the contract regardless of who won it, if it was Dublin Bus who were victorious or any other operator it would have been exactly the same thing. BE, DB and GAI have all recently missed their targets by the way, in some cases in some periods by more than GAI.

Saying that someone said something in July using it as a fact in the present, and ignoring what happened between that time despite the fact something may have changed is the typical kind of spin I expect from PBP.

It's like me saying that my record is the best selling record in the country and using sales figures from two months ago to prove it and ignoring the fact that I've since been overtaken by whoever the next big manufactured thing is.

What were they?

At least we know that NTA are applying [x] deductions according to a [redacted] contract with [unknown] targets in their grace period with no formal communication to the operator.

They couldn't have made a more generic statement if they formed a committee to try. Like they didn't want to talk about it.

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

What were they?

See here:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110709931

AlekSmart

interactive wrote: »

The private operator attributed problems meeting its targets to “higher than expected driver resignations”.
So we can expect no improvements in the coming months as GAI are still bleeding staff.

It can be argued that,given the Go-Ahead group's very recent experiences in the Singaporean BMO tendering process,the issue of Staff Retention could be said to be a VERY obvious problem for a newly arrived operator.

It has to also be borne in mind that one of the reasons the Go-Ahead bid was successful was the company's established track-record in these matters.

This is a group with turnover in the region of £Stg3 Billion with over £500,000,000 being Bus Generated,so it is not a corner-shop operation,which makes it's lack of expectancy in terms of it's Irish startup somewhat difficult to accept without question.

https://www.go-ahead.com/investors/2019-review

I would imagine it's Irish startup strategy has already been flagged as something requiring internal strategic review within Go Ahead plc, if it has'nt,then it really should !

AngryLips

punisher5112 wrote: »

This is any new vehicles from now on.

What new vehicles specifically? All BE services? All town services? I think it's a step in the right direction to have a uniform livery for town services TBH.

GM228

AngryLips wrote: »

What new vehicles specifically? All BE services? All town services? I think it's a step in the right direction to have a uniform livery for town services TBH.

Aside from GAI, all new 2019 onwards BE city buses and coaches are receiving this livery and perhaps eventually DB management will drop their iconic livery stance and get it too.

dfx-

devnull wrote: »

See here:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110709931

56A disturbingly high there for a very reliable route.

But is there any reason given how they came to the 60%/65% etc target?

.G.

AlekSmart wrote: »

It can be argued that,given the Go-Ahead group's very recent experiences in the Singaporean BMO tendering process,the issue of Staff Retention could be said to be a VERY obvious problem for a newly arrived operator.

It has to also be borne in mind that one of the reasons the Go-Ahead bid was successful was the company's established track-record in these matters.

This is a group with turnover in the region of £Stg3 Billion with over £500,000,000 being Bus Generated,so it is not a corner-shop operation,which makes it's lack of expectancy in terms of it's Irish startup somewhat difficult to accept without question.

https://www.go-ahead.com/investors/2019-review

I would imagine it's Irish startup strategy has already been flagged as something requiring internal strategic review within Go Ahead plc, if it has'nt,then it really should !

I doubt they've entered too many any other markets where their main competitor offers terms and conditions so much better than their own coupled with an overall shortage of folk willing and able to drive a bus, don't know what its like in Singapore but in the UK I wouldn't say driving a bus is very lucrative.

Yer Da sells Avon

interactive wrote: »

The private operator attributed problems meeting its targets to “higher than expected driver resignations”.
So we can expect no improvements in the coming months as GAI are still bleeding staff.

They're not still bleeding staff. In fact, some people have started returning to Go-Ahead from Bus Éireann because it wasn't what they had hoped for. Things have improved enormously in recent months.

AlekSmart

.G. wrote: »

I doubt they've entered too many any other markets where their main competitor offers terms and conditions so much better than their own coupled with an overall shortage of folk willing and able to drive a bus, don't know what its like in Singapore but in the UK I wouldn't say driving a bus is very lucrative.

100% correct,busdriving in most of the UK,outside of London is on a par with foraging for scrap as a viable career choice.

This situation tends to be seen as an integral part of the post deregulation scene there since the late 1980's.
The major groups who have dominated the UK industry since then,were comfortable with high Driver turnover figures,and indeed preferred to "churn" staff at an early point rather than allow seniority to become prevalent on their patches.

Perhaps not surprisingly,this opened a new growth area for companies offering courses in "Customer Focused" skills,in an attempt to instill some form of committment into what has become a poorly paid and transitory workforce.

Today,it would be known as the "Gig" economy and is about as beneficial to Society in general as an outbreak of Typhus.

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/06/why-wont-anyone-drive-the-bus/563555/

Luckily,the Singaporean operating model was more akin to our own than the deregulated UK one,and the staff were disinclined to roll over and take part in a race to the bottom.

So far,Singaporean Busdriver pay rates have increased by c.17.5% since the BMO process,as the Busdriver shortage and attempted lowering of terms & conditions conspired to thwart this part of the expected "benefits" of the Singaporean BMO.

But there's nothing new about this situation,but consistently avoiding facing the issue yet expecting it to disappear,has'nt worked so far and is unlikely EVER to work.

https://unhealthywork.org/la-bus-driver-study/a-day-in-the-life-of-a-bus-driver/

But,hey perhaps a dose of yet more 12-14 hour working days will eventually make the workforce see sense ? :rolleyes:

https://gothamist.com/news/mta-bus-drivers-on-the-stress-of-the-job-theres-no-off-button

(The comments on #2 are a hoot !)

SantiCazorla19

AlekSmart wrote: »

100% correct,busdriving in most of the UK,outside of London is on a par with foraging for scrap as a viable career choice.

This situation tends to be seen as an integral part of the post deregulation scene there since the late 1980's.
The major groups who have dominated the UK industry since then,were comfortable with high Driver turnover figures,and indeed preferred to "churn" staff at an early point rather than allow seniority to become prevalent on their patches.

Perhaps not surprisingly,this opened a new growth area for companies offering courses in "Customer Focused" skills,in an attempt to instill some form of committment into what has become a poorly paid and transitory workforce.

Luckily,the Singaporean operating model was more akin to our own than the deregulated UK one,and the staff were disinclined to roll over and take part in a race to the bottom.

Would that not be to some extent related to the cost of living in the UK aswell and the general wage market. In general the cost of living in the UK outside London is a lot less than in Ireland. Of course it probably somewhat to do with the deregulation market mind you.

dublinman1990

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

It seems to have had a knock-on effect on other routes. On Thursday, there were single-deckers on the 17, the 17a and the 76.

Yeah. You are right because I did see one of the Streetlites passing Frascati SC on the 17 last Thursday. But the thing is; that particular bus was running late from Blackrock Station. It didn't pass Frascati until 15:15 that day. It was running late by 15 minutes. It was meant to leave Blackrock Station at 15:00 & arrive at UCD in Belfield at 15:13. The 2 other 17's behind the Streetlite on the other hand, which was a GT & SG, at 15:20 & 15:40 left Blackrock Station on time.

The reg number of the Streetlite for that late 15:00 bus on the 17 was 182 D 18137.

SantiCazorla19

I'd say the 17 could manage ok with the odd single decker especially off peak and then did a few laps on the 114. DB used to ocassionally put WVs on it back when Donnybrook had 12 of them.

dublinman1990

SantiCazorla19 wrote: »

I'd say the 17 could manage ok with the odd single decker especially off peak and then did a few laps on the 114. DB used to ocassionally put WVs on it back when Donnybrook had 12 of them.

In the late afternoons; the 114 probably cannot cope with single deckers when students are coming home from school at that time. I was on the 16:00 bus on the 114 last Thursday. The demand for that bus was quite big if you add on the students coming home from Newpark School waiting outside Dunnes Stores at the Playwright to get on it. Using double deckers in that scenario is very much needed in that case. Also that bus did leave Blackrock on time as well which is another plus for the route.

devnull

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Yeah. You are right because I did see one of the Streetlites passing Frascati SC on the 17 last Thursday. But the thing is; that particular bus was running late from Blackrock Station. It didn't pass Frascati until 15:15 that day. It was running late by 15 minutes. It was meant to leave Blackrock Station at 15:00 & arrive at UCD in Belfield at 15:13. The 2 other 17's behind the Streetlite on the other hand, which was a GT & SG, at 15:20 & 15:40 left Blackrock Station on time.

The fact it was late suggests it may well have been a bus that was subbing for the decker which was unable to operate the journey at the normal time for some reason.

May have been a single decker or nothing.

dfx-

Trying to get away with the odd one SD here or there on the 17 or 63 or 114 or 102 or 17A when it's quiet enough isn't a great sign of their usefulness.

ITV2

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

They're not still bleeding staff. In fact, some people have started returning to Go-Ahead from Bus Éireann because it wasn't what they had hoped for. Things have improved enormously in recent months.

that's not the general story I hear in Dun Laoghaire from GAI drivers

Yer Da sells Avon

ITV2 wrote: »

that's not the general story I hear in Dun Laoghaire from GAI drivers

What exactly have you been hearing, and how recently have you been hearing it?

My experience (mostly in Dun Laoghaire and Bray) has been that curtailments and cancellations are now extremely rare. I hear positive feedback from passengers on a pretty much daily basis, especially on routes like the 63 and 45a.

CramCycle

45a is very good IMO, alas the 155 drivers now park where ever they feel like it around the Dart station so it can be confusing to other traffic coming through as they often just park in the traffic lane on a double yellow and it takes a minute to realise if your directly behind.

A friend in DB says there is still a large amount of GAI drivers applying for every job that comes up but that's to be expected, better pay etc. I presume they don't leave unless they get the job.

SantiCazorla19

dfx- wrote: »

Trying to get away with the odd one SD here or there on the 17 or 63 or 114 or 102 or 17A when it's quiet enough isn't a great sign of their usefulness.

Single deckers would be fine on the 63 and the 114 predominantly operated by single deckers with a double decker at peak times for the schools in the same manner as the 184 which gets a double decker at peak times when the schools are on. The only route so far where there's been issues with single deckers has been the 102 the others have been fine for the most part it seems.

As for single deckers appearing on double deck routes it happens. Better a single decker bus that's leaving people behind at stops than no bus at all. DB have also used this logic the 46a and 145 used to regularly get single deckers as peak time extras not so long ago there was a WS on the 145.