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Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

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    #4232
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Pretty sure the 239 didn't have Sunday service either until GAI started operating it.

    Up until the recent changes you could actually nearly say that certain routes were only operating a skeleton service on Sundays. Three routes along with the ones which don't run full stop on Sundays which would spring to mind would be the 4, 17 and 184 for me. The 184 operated every two hours on a Sunday but now runs every half hour.

    I do wonder if it would be anything to with DB's Sunday premium rates for drivers being higher than GAIs. The Sunday service with DB seemed to date back to a time before shops opened on a Sunday and few people were about.

    Nothing to do with db, it's all to make gai look better as soon as they take up....
    They can't be seen to fail...


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    #4233
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Nothing to do with db, it's all to make gai look better as soon as they take up....
    They can't be seen to fail...

    I don't see the evidence to that claim maybe the NTA but not GAI. Many DB routes have gotten frequency boosts with the capacity that was freed up as a result of routes moving over to Go-Ahead such as the 4, 14 and 16 and new routes have been introduced like the 40e and 155


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    #4234
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    All increases to frequency was when routes changed hands.


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    #4235
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    All increases to frequency was when routes changed hands.

    Yes and that was because the capacity was not available until GAI started operating as DB were operating the routes which GAI are running now so they did not resources to increase capacity.


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    #4236
    john boye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭john boye


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Nothing to do with db, it's all to make gai look better as soon as they take up....
    They can't be seen to fail...

    Many DB routes have had weekend frequency improvements since the GAI changes too. It's more to do with increased demand at weekends than trying to make anyone look better. Keep in mind many DB weekend timetables before the changes were introduced in the Network Direct era when things were very different.

    Did the 114 never have a Sunday service at all?


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    #4237
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    john boye wrote: »
    Did the 114 never have a Sunday service at all?

    No it never had a Sunday service I don't think. It is one of the few surviving routes that were originally DART feeders along with the 111 and I think the 102 introduced in the 80s. You could actually buy DART tickets from the driver on it up recently I believe.

    http://www.dublinbusstuff.com/PhotoWeek/Route113_114_115.html


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    #4238
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Yes of course db has had similar but what you don't see is this was all done as soon as changes....

    Example... 45a gets increase db couldn't because nta wouldn't allow.... But people see the increase with new operations company


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    #4239
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Yes of course db has had similar but what you don't see is this was all done as soon as changes....

    Example... 45a gets increase db couldn't because nta wouldn't allow.... But people see the increase with new operations company

    The capacity wasn't there before the changes. It would be foolish of the NTA to allow DB increase the frequency if they did not have the resources. The tendering out of services has meant that the urban bus fleet in Dublin (DB + GAI) has grown by nearly 140 buses this would have happened even if DB won the tender.


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    #4240
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    But this could well have been done without gai...

    Im not sure if you see where I'm coming from...


    I'm not fully behind db either but the mess that is is costing us a fortune


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    #4241
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    But this could well have been done without gai...

    Im not sure if you see where I'm coming from...


    I'm not fully behind db either but the mess that is is costing us a fortune

    So you are saying that the NTA should have given 140 extra buses to DB as part of their direct award contract instead and not bothered with tendering? I'm not sure aswell where you come the conclusion that it would have cost the NTA less to have DB operate the routes?

    Also just asking would have the same issues if DB had of won the tender and beaten Go-Ahead?


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    #4242
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,901 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    But this could well have been done without gai...

    Im not sure if you see where I'm coming from...


    I'm not fully behind db either but the mess that is is costing us a fortune

    It couldn't. Tendering was a requirement and adding capacity to DB prior to the GAI start would have left them over the limit.

    Nothing at all was done to make GAI look good - that is paranoia on your part


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    #4243
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,347 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    How did the 07:20 bus go on the new 75/a timetable on it's 1st day this morning?


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    #4244
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    L1011 wrote: »
    It couldn't. Tendering was a requirement and adding capacity to DB prior to the GAI start would have left them over the limit.

    Nothing at all was done to make GAI look good - that is paranoia on your part

    No it's not sure certain routes at db were increased....

    Look if that's how you want to see it that's fine I'm just stating it how it is.

    db route 45a for example gets extra departures and better times on the day it's taken over...

    Of course db had similar with other routes too so I'm not saying it's one sided but isn't it amazing when change over happens is the day for improvement... It's definitely done to make gai look better.


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    #4245
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,901 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    You're stating a factually flawed opinion, not "stating it how it is"

    DB would have required additional vehicles to have improved schedules before the tendering. This wasn't ever going to happen

    Route improvements came when vehicles were available. This is a fact. Your opinion does not outweigh facts


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    #4246
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    No it's not sure certain routes at db were increased....

    Look if that's how you want to see it that's fine I'm just stating it how it is.

    db route 45a for example gets extra departures and better times on the day it's taken over...

    Of course db had similar with other routes too so I'm not saying it's one sided but isn't it amazing when change over happens is the day for improvement... It's definitely done to make gai look better.

    DB could have won the tender and the same increases to both the tendered routes and the routes as part of the direct award.

    It's quite simple really for example when the 45a, 63, 59 and 75 moved to GAI the buses used to operate on those routes were freed up to be used to increase other Donnybrook operated routes like the 14 and it also meant the 15 moved it's Ringsend duties to Donnybrook freeing up capacity in Ringsend to allow some if it's routes to be increased.

    When DB were operating the routes that moved to GAI the capacity was not available as the extra buses were being used on the routes that went out to tender. If DB had of won the tender it may have meant they had open a new depot for example to be able to deal with the additional buses and increased capacity.


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    #4247
    SG317
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭SG317


    In all fairness it would be in the NTA's interest to make GAI look as good as possible, as they pitched a new operator as an advantage to the bus network. So there is certainly an element of making GAI look better with these frequency increases.

    Also, DB would have enough buses to provide a Sunday service on the 114 and 239, two additional buses and 4 duties altogether. So, it is not entirely true to ascertain that DB didn't have the capacity to implement any of the changes. Also, the controversial DL route changes were carried out two years before the transferal of routes to GAI, in order to make them more profitable before tendering them out. However, it was not done when the routes transferred over, so there does seem to be an element here of the NTA trying to make GAI look good.


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    #4248
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    SG317 wrote: »
    In all fairness it would be in the NTA's interest to make GAI look as good as possible, as they pitched a new operator as an advantage to the bus network. So there is certainly an element of making GAI look better with these frequency increases.

    Also, DB would have enough buses to provide a Sunday service on the 114 and 239, two additional buses and 4 duties altogether. So, it is not entirely true to ascertain that DB didn't have the capacity to implement any of the changes. Also, the controversial DL route changes were carried out two years before the transferal of routes to GAI, in order to make them more profitable before tendering them out. However, it was not done when the routes transferred over, so there does seem to be an element here of the NTA trying to make GAI look good.

    I'm on the fence when it comes to tendering but surely this a ridiculous argument. Most people couldn't care less who is operating their bus services and couldn't what the agenda of the NTA was or was not they care they got an improved service.

    So if that's the case why did DB not run a Sunday service on the routes you mentioned back when they were calling the shots and not the NTA before the recession and before Network Direct. Also why did the 66b get a Sunday service aswell as it didn't move to GAI and stayed with DB.

    As for the DL changes if it was the NTA trying to make the routes look profitable why was the 7/a changed when it was not part of the tendering plan. Surely if that was the case then only the 59, 45a, 63 and 111 should've been changed. Also what difference does the profitability of routes make when it comes to tendering as GAI get paid a set fee by the NTA regardless of whether a route is profitable or not?


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    #4249
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    How can the NTA be trying to make GAI look good and GAI be simultaneously a disaster at the same time


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    #4250
    SG317
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭SG317


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    SG317 wrote: »
    In all fairness it would be in the NTA's interest to make GAI look as good as possible, as they pitched a new operator as an advantage to the bus network. So there is certainly an element of making GAI look better with these frequency increases.

    Also, DB would have enough buses to provide a Sunday service on the 114 and 239, two additional buses and 4 duties altogether. So, it is not entirely true to ascertain that DB didn't have the capacity to implement any of the changes. Also, the controversial DL route changes were carried out two years before the transferal of routes to GAI, in order to make them more profitable before tendering them out. However, it was not done when the routes transferred over, so there does seem to be an element here of the NTA trying to make GAI look good.

    I'm on the fence when it comes to tendering but surely this a ridiculous argument. Most people couldn't care less who is operating their bus services and couldn't what the agenda of the NTA was or was not they care they got an improved service.

    So if that's the case why did DB not run a Sunday service on the routes you mentioned back when they were calling the shots and not the NTA before the recession and before Network Direct. Also why did the 66b get a Sunday service aswell as it didn't move to GAI and stayed with DB.

    As for the DL changes if it was the NTA trying to make the routes look profitable why was the 7/a changed when it was not part of the tendering plan. Surely if that was the case then only the 59, 45a, 63 and 111 should've been changed. Also what difference does the profitability of routes make when it comes to tendering as GAI get paid a set fee by the NTA regardless of whether a route is profitable or not?

    I think people look at this in black and white, when really it's a grey area. The 7/A was changed to make the 7 more direct. Also the 8 was withdrawn, a route which would have otherwise competed with the 59 and 111. While it is true that GAI are getting paid a set fee, the funds for paying this fee has to come from somewhere. Preferably, from the routes they ate operating. As let's not forgot currently DB keep their cashbox revenue but GAI don't, so the NTA needs to get more revenue from GAI routes.

    I'm presuming your second point is about SDs on the 102, which at least in part is a choice GAI has assumed, so that is separate.


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    #4251
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    SG317 wrote: »
    I think people look at this in black and white, when really it's a grey area. The 7/A was changed to make the 7 more direct. Also the 8 was withdrawn, a route which would have otherwise competed with the 59 and 111. While it is true that GAI are getting paid a set fee, the funds for paying this fee has to come from somewhere. Preferably, from the routes they ate operating. As let's not forgot currently DB keep their cashbox revenue but GAI don't, so the NTA needs to get more revenue from GAI routes.

    I'm presuming your second point is about SDs on the 102, which at least in part is a choice GAI has assumed, so that is separate.

    So why are they trying to make a DB route which was not part of the tendering plans more direct and hence more "profitable". Also the 8 didn't compete with the 59 and the 111 didn't operate to Dalkey back then it diid not serve Dun Laoghairs which the 59 did. If the NTA don't want it's routes competing with DB routes then why they run the 33a with an intergrated timetable with the DB operated 33 and didn't they change the routing of the 75 and 175 so they don't run parallel to the 14.

    No I've many people who are against GAI tendering say thatbit has been a disaster on a number of routes like the 102 being one but I've also heard people say that the 17a is a disaster for example and many are possibly exaggerating some of the issues.


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    #4252
    Tarabuses
    Registered Users Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Tarabuses


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    How can the NTA be trying to make GAI look good and GAI be simultaneously a disaster at the same time

    The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry.


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    #4253
    SG317
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭SG317


    7
    Stephen15 wrote: »
    SG317 wrote: »
    I think people look at this in black and white, when really it's a grey area. The 7/A was changed to make the 7 more direct. Also the 8 was withdrawn, a route which would have otherwise competed with the 59 and 111. While it is true that GAI are getting paid a set fee, the funds for paying this fee has to come from somewhere. Preferably, from the routes they ate operating. As let's not forgot currently DB keep their cashbox revenue but GAI don't, so the NTA needs to get more revenue from GAI routes.

    I'm presuming your second point is about SDs on the 102, which at least in part is a choice GAI has assumed, so that is separate.

    So why are they trying to make a DB route which was not part of the tendering plans more direct and hence more "profitable". Also the 8 didn't compete with the 59 and the 111 didn't operate to Dalkey back then it diid not serve Dun Laoghairs which the 59 did. If the NTA don't want it's routes competing with DB routes then why they run the 33a with an intergrated timetable with the DB operated 33 and didn't they change the routing of the 75 and 175 so they don't run parallel to the 14.

    No I've many people who are against GAI tendering say thatbit has been a disaster on a number of routes like the 102 being one but I've also heard people say that the 17a is a disaster for example and many are possibly exaggerating some of the issues.
    Stephen15 wrote: »
    SG317 wrote: »
    I think people look at this in black and white, when really it's a grey area. The 7/A was changed to make the 7 more direct. Also the 8 was withdrawn, a route which would have otherwise competed with the 59 and 111. While it is true that GAI are getting paid a set fee, the funds for paying this fee has to come from somewhere. Preferably, from the routes they ate operating. As let's not forgot currently DB keep their cashbox revenue but GAI don't, so the NTA needs to get more revenue from GAI routes.

    I'm presuming your second point is about SDs on the 102, which at least in part is a choice GAI has assumed, so that is separate.

    So why are they trying to make a DB route which was not part of the tendering plans more direct and hence more "profitable". Also the 8 didn't compete with the 59 and the 111 didn't operate to Dalkey back then it diid not serve Dun Laoghairs which the 59 did. If the NTA don't want it's routes competing with DB routes then why they run the 33a with an intergrated timetable with the DB operated 33 and didn't they change the routing of the 75 and 175 so they don't run parallel to the 14.

    No I've many people who are against GAI tendering say thatbit has been a disaster on a number of routes like the 102 being one but I've also heard people say that the 17a is a disaster for example and many are possibly exaggerating some of the issues.

    Yes, but the new 111 would have competed with the 8, as the corridor between Dalkey and Dun Laoghaire is not very busy and the DART covers it as well. The 33/A corridor is very busy on the other hand and the 33A is needed. In the later they would not be competing as both would be heavily patrionaged.


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    #4254
    SG317
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭SG317


    7
    Stephen15 wrote: »
    SG317 wrote: »
    I think people look at this in black and white, when really it's a grey area. The 7/A was changed to make the 7 more direct. Also the 8 was withdrawn, a route which would have otherwise competed with the 59 and 111. While it is true that GAI are getting paid a set fee, the funds for paying this fee has to come from somewhere. Preferably, from the routes they ate operating. As let's not forgot currently DB keep their cashbox revenue but GAI don't, so the NTA needs to get more revenue from GAI routes.

    I'm presuming your second point is about SDs on the 102, which at least in part is a choice GAI has assumed, so that is separate.

    So why are they trying to make a DB route which was not part of the tendering plans more direct and hence more "profitable". Also the 8 didn't compete with the 59 and the 111 didn't operate to Dalkey back then it diid not serve Dun Laoghairs which the 59 did. If the NTA don't want it's routes competing with DB routes then why they run the 33a with an intergrated timetable with the DB operated 33 and didn't they change the routing of the 75 and 175 so they don't run parallel to the 14.

    No I've many people who are against GAI tendering say thatbit has been a disaster on a number of routes like the 102 being one but I've also heard people say that the 17a is a disaster for example and many are possibly exaggerating some of the issues.
    Stephen15 wrote: »
    SG317 wrote: »
    I think people look at this in black and white, when really it's a grey area. The 7/A was changed to make the 7 more direct. Also the 8 was withdrawn, a route which would have otherwise competed with the 59 and 111. While it is true that GAI are getting paid a set fee, the funds for paying this fee has to come from somewhere. Preferably, from the routes they ate operating. As let's not forgot currently DB keep their cashbox revenue but GAI don't, so the NTA needs to get more revenue from GAI routes.

    I'm presuming your second point is about SDs on the 102, which at least in part is a choice GAI has assumed, so that is separate.

    So why are they trying to make a DB route which was not part of the tendering plans more direct and hence more "profitable". Also the 8 didn't compete with the 59 and the 111 didn't operate to Dalkey back then it diid not serve Dun Laoghairs which the 59 did. If the NTA don't want it's routes competing with DB routes then why they run the 33a with an intergrated timetable with the DB operated 33 and didn't they change the routing of the 75 and 175 so they don't run parallel to the 14.

    No I've many people who are against GAI tendering say thatbit has been a disaster on a number of routes like the 102 being one but I've also heard people say that the 17a is a disaster for example and many are possibly exaggerating some of the issues.

    Yes, but the new 111 would have competed with the 8, as the corridor between Dalkey and Dun Laoghaire is not very busy and the DART covers it as well. The 33/A corridor is very busy on the other hand and the 33A is needed. In the later they would not be competing as both would be heavily patrionaged.


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    #4255
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    SG317 wrote: »
    Yes, but the new 111 would have competed with the 8, as the corridor between Dalkey and Dun Laoghaire is not very busy and the DART covers it as well. The 33/A corridor is very busy on the other hand and the 33A is needed. In the later they would not be competing as both would be heavily patrionaged.

    The 8 was a peak only route with a few off peak departures and no weekend service sort of similar to the 84x iirc which was mainly busy around school times. The 111 on the other hand is an all day route and mainly a community based route with most if it's passenger base being FTP holders so it wouldn't be very competitive.

    The plan was to give Dalkey a half hourly service and the original plan was to run the 59 from DL to Loughlinstown Hospital via Dalkey but this was shut down as part of the plan was to remove the 59 from Killiney Village. I believe there had been calls for a direct connection from the Dun Laoghaire and Sallynoggin area for a direct service to Loughlinstown Hospital so hence why the 111 was put there.


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    #4256
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,347 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    How is the work of refreshing the interiors on GAI's older buses going on at the minute?


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    #4257
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,347 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    GAI's 11588 & one of it's drivers was over in Blackpool at the weekend for the UK Bus Driver of The Year competition.

    It was the first time ever that GAI had entered the competition. Sadly; it's driver, which I do not know his name, did not win it this time round.

    1st place went to Adam Stitt of Lothian Buses.

    https://twitter.com/ukbdoy/status/1168217627002626049

    https://www.bdoy.co.uk/the-national-final/

    Also

    GAI's home page on it's website has been updated to include a recruitment page & video to hire people to become new Engineers. They're looking to take on people to take up new Engineering positions at their depots in Ballymount, Naas & Edenderry that would be able to work on their new bus & coach fleet from their depots.

    The jobs they are recruiting people for are

    HGV Mechanic - Naas
    HGV Mechanic - Ballymount, Dublin 12
    Panel Beating Assistant
    Vehicle Inspector
    Mechanical Assistant

    https://www.goaheadireland.ie/engineering-vacancies


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    #4258
    Contrails
    Registered Users Posts: 181 ✭✭Contrails


    Sent on by a friend.


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    #4259
    StreetLight
    Registered Users Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭StreetLight


    Contrails wrote: »
    Sent on by a friend.

    Took them long enough to recognise the bloody obvious.


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    #4260
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    StreetLight wrote: »
    Took them long enough to recognise the bloody obvious.

    There has recently been discussions about this with the NTA.

    This has led to the NTA approving changing the route to double deck, using some extra 2019 vehicles that have recently been allocated to GAI from the NTA. There are still two outstanding (11089/11090) which should follow shortly which is probably the two vehicles that they are talking about in the notice.


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    #4261
    Yer Da sells Avon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭Yer Da sells Avon


    devnull wrote: »
    There has recently been discussions about this with the NTA.

    This has led to the NTA approving changing the route to double deck, using some extra 2019 vehicles that have recently been allocated to GAI from the NTA. There are still two outstanding (11089/11090) which should follow shortly which is probably the two vehicles that they are talking about in the notice.

    It seems to have had a knock-on effect on other routes. On Thursday, there were single-deckers on the 17, the 17a and the 76.


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