Dublin 15 is going to get a lot more congested.

IngazZagni

beauf wrote: »

No one wanted the level crossing to remain open. They just didn't want the new bridge.

Once it was realised a new bridge was going to be the only option, the justification being to take the traffic from the level crossing. Then people wanted the level crossing back, so the traffic didn't a new bridge.

This then can be twisted into people don't want the rail changes, and don't want changes NIMBYs etc.

The agenda really is about more cars. It's got nothing to do with the trains really. As you don't need the bridge to facilitate the train.

You could close the crossing tomorrow as a trial. Perfect time now with the reduced traffic. Even during the lockdowns last year.

Except this wasn't the only narrative. There were people who wanted the bridge AND the level crossings to remain open. There are so many different views on this.

There's no point in having a trial now because it would be useless without putting in the pedestrian and cycling bridge. Without this it would massively inconvenience everyone and would therefore be unsuccessful in my opinion.

Phil.x

A couple of things, covid and working from home has killed the Dart+ plan, so we will have the same sh1t service for decades to come.

Also who really gives a sh1t about cycling and cycling lanes, cycling is only a pastime, leisure pursuit and shouldn't have a say in any real development/transport plans, maybe, maybe for some new builds which have the space for the token cycle lanes but that's it, look at the wasteful spend of money on the hartstown cycle lane eventhough there was a cycle lane there that wasn't/isn't used.

Cycle lanes shouldn't be in anyway part of a planning deal to get planning permission of any sorts and builders know full well 99% of the people don't cycle to work from D15 but have to keep the greens happy, it's a Walter Mitty approach, the people who are causing travel restrictions in dublin are Cyclists Owen Keegan, DCC. Dave Storey, FingalCC. Robert Burns, DLRCC.

And save your energy in replying with links to other countries or statistics and reports by cycling lobbies.

beauf

How about Dublin Commuters 2019

Cycling and walking both increased last year to a combined share of nearly 18%, more than all those travelling on the heavy rail services - DART, Commuter and InterCity.

The percentage using sustainable travel - public transport, walking, cycling and taxis - was 72%

The car now accounts for just 28% of journeys

That's Dublin. I'm sure D15 is more like the 1970~80s with the car being dominant. We are that far behind.

Last time I followed it, the Dart getting 10 mins Darts was a higher priority than doing anything with D15/Maynooth line.
Covid will blow a hole in public finances. I'm sure that will have an impact on big capital infrastructure projects.
Considering Leo doesn't want to be seen as a local politician but a national one.

WFH will increase but only modestly. Because people are stupid. Last time the lockdown lifted it was back to 70~80% traffic volumes in a few weeks.

Over the last few years, before Covid my trains got shorter (less capacity), the journey times longer (delays on the line as Hazelhatch gets priority etc).
IMO Volumes massively increased on D15 trains. But D15 got lower priority on the line and rolling stock.
So I'll not hold my breath for that to change.

Don't worry about cyclists. They are bottom of the rung when it comes to priority in D15. I assume the rest of Fingal is the same. Car is king here.

beauf

Can't find recent figures for schools. But in 2016 nationally...

Self-propelled transport that involves an element of exercise, walking and cycling, has fallen by half, from 49.5 per cent of primary school students in 1986 to 25 per cent in 2016.

The main substitute for these options has been the rise in car travel to primary school which rose from 24 per cent of journeys in 1986 to 59.8 per cent in 2016.

donvito99

Phil.x wrote: »

A couple of things, covid and working from home has killed the Dart+ plan, so we will have the same sh1t service for decades to come.

Also who really gives a sh1t about cycling and cycling lanes, cycling is only a pastime, leisure pursuit and shouldn't have a say in any real development/transport plans, maybe, maybe for some new builds which have the space for the token cycle lanes but that's it, look at the wasteful spend of money on the hartstown cycle lane eventhough there was a cycle lane there that wasn't/isn't used.

Cycle lanes shouldn't be in anyway part of a planning deal to get planning permission of any sorts and builders know full well 99% of the people don't cycle to work from D15 but have to keep the greens happy, it's a Walter Mitty approach, the people who are causing travel restrictions in dublin are Cyclists Owen Keegan, DCC. Dave Storey, FingalCC. Robert Burns, DLRCC.

And save your energy in replying with links to other countries or statistics and reports by cycling lobbies.

Someone so sick of facts and reality being put to them that they try and cut it off at the pass

beauf

donvito99 wrote: »

Someone so sick of facts and reality being put to them that they try and cut it off at the pass

It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Not many cycle because of bad infrastructure. So they won't improve the infrastructure because not enough cycle.

It's bit like this story

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irelands-newest-train-station-could-move-because-of-major-shortfall-in-passengers-36916197.html

They run a limited service a few trains in the morning, none during the day and a few in the evening. None at the weekends.Reduce the number of carriages. Then claim not enough use the service. Meanwhile the passengers are crammed like sardines with people passing out and getting sick due to over crowding.

I don't really understand the lack of traffic stats when it comes to planning in Dublin 15. But I do understand that you can't say there's enough capacity for new development to get new development planning passed. But then also argue you need more road capacity and bridges because there's isn't enough capacity. The story changes 180 everytime they want something different approved.

Not that it matters they will just keep applying until it gets approved.

Chrisam

I see today that an application has gone in to APB for 198 build to rent apartments, in the grounds of the Old Schoolhouse, Porterstown Road. Add that to the 350 apartments planned behind St Mochta's school and you have 500+ apartments feeding traffic on to the Clonsilla Road (as a cul de sac, if the level crossing is closed). All happening right beside a primary school. Housing needed yes, but I don't agree with pushing all that extra traffic on to the Clonsilla Rd, right beside a primary school. Let's hope they all cycle!

Brock Turnpike

Chrisam wrote: »

I see today that an application has gone in to APB for 198 build to rent apartments, in the grounds of the Old Schoolhouse, Porterstown Road. Add that to the 350 apartments planned behind St Mochta's school and you have 500+ apartments feeding traffic on to the Clonsilla Road (as a cul de sac, if the level crossing is closed). All happening right beside a primary school. Housing needed yes, but I don't agree with pushing all that extra traffic on to the Clonsilla Rd, right beside a primary school. Let's hope they all cycle!

Careful now! You'll be accused of NIMBYISM with that attitude.

Chrisam

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

Careful now! You'll be accused of NIMBYISM with that attitude.

Strictly speaking, it's not quite in my backyard

beauf

They'll get a few 10 storey blocks in there no problem. It's beside a railway.

Larbre34

They may well be let build these apartments if they provide a new road bridge over the railway that provides for closing of the existing crossing.

Chrisam

Larbre34 wrote: »

They may well be let build these apartments if they provide a new road bridge over the railway that provides for closing of the existing crossing.

The proposed road bridge is half a kilometre east of these developments, so they're being built in a proposed cul de sac. Irish Rail are proposing a pedestrian/cycle bridge for Porterstown.

Such a shame that being beside a rail line green lights high density housing. The canal between Coolmine and Clonsilla is beautifully unspoilt and a haven for wildlife. You can walk it now and escape urban life for 30 mins. It is under a canopy of trees, full of habitats, not overlooked by housing, with only one modern concrete bridge overhead. Go walk it this spring and enjoy it before it is ruined forever by high rise apartments and concrete bridges.

beauf

Chrisam wrote: »

The proposed road bridge is half a kilometre east of these developments, so they're being built in a proposed cul de sac. Irish Rail are proposing a pedestrian/cycle bridge for Porterstown.

They are closer to the existing bridge.

What wrong with a cul de sac. Many prefer that as its quieter.

Chrisam

beauf wrote: »

They are closer to the existing bridge.

What wrong with a cul de sac. Many prefer that as its quieter.

A cul de sac with 500 new apartments ... that's not very quiet lol!

All I'm saying is that a fast lift level crossing, at Porterstown, would ensure that some of the cars (and cyclists) would head south into Kellystown - where the infrastucture would be better - rather than all heading for the Clonsilla Rd. Irish Rail's proposals did not consider all this additional housing, when proposing to close the level crossing and replace it with a pedestrian/cyclist bridge.

beauf

Chrisam wrote: »

A cul de sac with 500 new apartments ... that's not very quiet lol!

All I'm saying is that a fast lift level crossing, at Porterstown, would ensure that some of the cars (and cyclists) would head south into Kellystown - where the infrastucture would be better - rather than all heading for the Clonsilla Rd. Irish Rail's proposals did not consider all this additional housing, when proposing to close the level crossing and replace it with a pedestrian/cyclist bridge.

Well its quieter than having a through road. It also would used as means to bypass congestion at the other bridges.

If they close it before they build the 500 no one will be in there to complain.

Irish Rail plan is too bring all local traffic to one place with two bridges. A location they already admit has the worst congestion in the local area. Pump Kellystown bang into the middle of it. Can't see who this plan will ease congestion. Maybe they don't care maybe they only want the crossings gone.

Chrisam

beauf wrote: »

Well its quieter than having a through road. It also would used as means to bypass congestion at the other bridges.

If they close it before they build the 500 no one will be in there to complain.

Irish Rail plan is too bring all local traffic to one place with two bridges. A location they already admit has the worst congestion in the local area. Pump Kellystown bang into the middle of it. Can't see who this plan will ease congestion. Maybe they don't care maybe they only want the crossings gone.

Irish Rail don't care. They are only doing the bidding of FCC, who need the bridge for local traffic management, but couldn't get it approved into the local development plan. Railway Orders don't need council approval, SHDs don't need council approval.

beauf

Well all the important people are happy so...

liamog

Chrisam wrote: »

Irish Rail don't care. They are only doing the bidding of FCC, who need the bridge for local traffic management, but couldn't get it approved into the local development plan. Railway Orders don't need council approval, SHDs don't need council approval.

Irish Rail has a goal to close all level crossings on the Maynooth Line to improve the quality of service, I'm sure they'd be completely OK by closing them completely with no replacement, but that would result in their being a single road crossing of the railway along around 6km of railway line.

That's not the kind of connectivity you want in a suburban area, it's ideal if you want US style ghettoisation where there is a marked difference between communities on each side of the tracks.

lucernarian

Chrisam wrote: »

The proposed road bridge is half a kilometre east of these developments, so they're being built in a proposed cul de sac. Irish Rail are proposing a pedestrian/cycle bridge for Porterstown.

Such a shame that being beside a rail line green lights high density housing. The canal between Coolmine and Clonsilla is beautifully unspoilt and a haven for wildlife. You can walk it now and escape urban life for 30 mins. It is under a canopy of trees, full of habitats, not overlooked by housing, with only one modern concrete bridge overhead. Go walk it this spring and enjoy it before it is ruined forever by high rise apartments and concrete bridges.

As someone who walked that overgrown and weedy pathway many times, the above is a pretty hysterical post. It's already unfortunate that there are long detours to cross the railway and canal between castleknock and coolmone especially.

Praetorian22

apologies for my novice question but how does one view/find more details on these applications? i seem incapable of navigate the fingal portal website

blanch152

Chrisam wrote: »

A cul de sac with 500 new apartments ... that's not very quiet lol!

All I'm saying is that a fast lift level crossing, at Porterstown, would ensure that some of the cars (and cyclists) would head south into Kellystown - where the infrastucture would be better - rather than all heading for the Clonsilla Rd. Irish Rail's proposals did not consider all this additional housing, when proposing to close the level crossing and replace it with a pedestrian/cyclist bridge.

A fast lift level crossing for maybe 20 or 30 of the 500 apartment owners who want to head that way to get priority ahead of the thousands who would use an upgraded Dart service?

donvito99

A high capacity, high frequency railway line is exactly where 500 apartments should be built.

JustAThought

donvito99 wrote: »

A high capacity, high frequency railway line is exactly where 500 apartments should be built.[/quote

will any of the people getting these appartments actually work?

Chrisam

Praetorian22 wrote: »

apologies for my novice question but how does one view/find more details on these applications? i seem incapable of navigate the fingal portal website

Anything over 100 units bypasses the council and goes straight to An Bord Pleanala, so that's the site to check. Personally I don't find that site very easy to navigate, but someone else here might be able to guide.

Patches oHoulihan

Chrisam wrote: »

I see today that an application has gone in to APB for 198 build to rent apartments, in the grounds of the Old Schoolhouse, Porterstown Road. Add that to the 350 apartments planned behind St Mochta's school and you have 500+ apartments feeding traffic on to the Clonsilla Road (as a cul de sac, if the level crossing is closed). All happening right beside a primary school. Housing needed yes, but I don't agree with pushing all that extra traffic on to the Clonsilla Rd, right beside a primary school. Let's hope they all cycle!

A once nice area is rapidly becoming an urban ghetto.
I played for Mochtas all through my teens and I remember how remote the first team pitch used to feel. The old school house was a source of mystery to us as kids.

beauf

donvito99 wrote: »

A high capacity, high frequency railway line is exactly where 500 apartments should be built.

Probably a 15-20 min walk to a station from there. Not sure If walking down the canal itself is an option all time.

I think the main issue was the road traffic it will generate since most will drive. On a small road with a school on it.

But I think we've decided there is infinite capacity on the D15 road network for cars and it's our preferred means of travel.

Incidentally when is this high capacity high frequency line coming. When will I be able to get on one of these.

beauf

Patches oHoulihan wrote: »

A once nice area is rapidly becoming an urban ghetto.
I played for Mochtas all through my teens and I remember how remote the first team pitch used to feel. The old school house was a source of mystery to us as kids.

Well it was never going to stay the way it was. It was pretty much all fields when I was a kid. It was the countryside and a small country village.

But as you say is not been developed in any coherent plan. There's no real focus to it. It's just endless housing estates, apartment blocks and industrial units. It's pretty dour for the most part.

Chrisam

Patches oHoulihan wrote: »

A once nice area is rapidly becoming an urban ghetto.
I played for Mochtas all through my teens and I remember how remote the first team pitch used to feel. The old school house was a source of mystery to us as kids.

See I'm a blow in, moved here 15 yrs ago. I wonder if people who grew up here appreciate the natural and built heritage that Clonsilla is lucky to have or, like anywhere you grow up, largely take it for granted. There is some unique local architecture, some big houses, a rural feel between Clonsilla and the Strawberry Beds and a canal that is a haven for wildlife. Housing, commuting etc., needs to be developed in a way sympathetic to these local resources and locals need to appreciate them, to protect them. Unfortunately, I'm not getting that vibe from many in this thread.

beauf

Chrisam wrote: »

See I'm a blow in, moved here 15 yrs ago. I wonder if people who grew up here appreciate the natural and built heritage that Clonsilla is lucky to have or, like anywhere you grow up, largely take it for granted. There is some unique local architecture, some big houses, a rural feel between Clonsilla and the Strawberry Beds and a canal that is a haven for wildlife. Housing, commuting etc., needs to be developed in a way sympathetic to these local resources and locals need to appreciate them, to protect them. Unfortunately, I'm not getting that vibe from many in this thread.

I always thought the opposite. People moving into the area can't see the problems because they haven't seen the before and after. So they pretty much repeat the same mistakes everyone before them made.

For example they think adding more roads bridges will improve the traffic. (Improve their journey times) But we know from experience traffic will just increase to fill the extra capacity. All it will do it increase the pressure on the next bottleneck. It's 1960s thinking. Fundamentally the whole local network is restricted to the the slowest point. The slowest point in this case is the exits out of the area. Which in this case have gotten a lot more restricted.

Problem now is on a busy day you often can't use the local amenities due to the problems of traffic and over development and poor planning.

Take the design of porterstown park car park. It's one narrow entrance in and out. On a busy day the entrance is immediately jammed. Which backs to on to the road. Which then is blocked. That is simply poor design. They are planning to enhance the facilities there, running track etc. Which is great. But how will this effect the traffic as above. Lack of joined up thinking.

But hey no one wants objections. So everyone buy a car and keep building.

Former Former Former

I'd love to see some incentive to get older people to downsize.

D15 has a huge stock of 3 and 4 bed semi-detached houses, most with generous gardens, that are populated by one or two retired people. My own parents are rattling around a big house with an enormous garden. They should downsize but don't see the point. Maybe with a bit of a nudge, they would.

I don't know what such an incentive would look like but it seems that if we could get the right people in the right houses, we wouldn't need quite as many new builds.

Not limited to D15 obviously.