Dublin 15 is going to get a lot more congested.

Chrisam · 12-02-2021 10:18pm

beauf wrote: »

The plan is too close the bridge which should make it a bit quieter there.

Not sure I follow. If Porterstown bridge is closed to cars, then all cars in the housing development are forced out on to the (already congested) Clonsilla Road.

beauf · 13-02-2021 12:34am

Chrisam wrote: »

Not sure I follow. If Porterstown bridge is closed to cars, then all cars in the housing development are forced out on to the (already congested) Clonsilla Road.

My post is out of context. I meant they want to close the clonsilla bridge so the traffic passing the house "the forge" might reduce. They also want to close porterstown and coolmine crossing. All this traffic will be concentrated at Dr Troy bridge. They will build another bridge right beside it. They recognise Dr Troy has a problem with congestion. So this is the plan.

Chrisam · 13-02-2021 11:46am

beauf wrote: »

My post is out of context. I meant they want to close the clonsilla bridge so the traffic passing the house "the forge" might reduce. They also want to close porterstown and coolmine crossing. All this traffic will be concentrated at Dr Troy bridge. They will build another bridge right beside it. They recognise Dr Troy has a problem with congestion. So this is the plan.

They build Kellystown, bordered all the way along by a canal. Close level crossings at the only access points and force all the traffic onto an already congested Dr Troy bridge (right beside Scoil Cholm too!). Makes no sense to me. What they need to do is implement fast lift automatic gates at the 3 level crossings, so that they aren't down so long. Irish Rail also need to take a good look at the post Covid world and determine whether doubling the number of trains will be necessary, with the drop in commuter numbers/increase in hybrid work week.

IngazZagni · 13-02-2021 12:45pm

Chrisam wrote: »

They build Kellystown, bordered all the way along by a canal. Close level crossings at the only access points and force all the traffic onto an already congested Dr Troy bridge (right beside Scoil Cholm too!). Makes no sense to me. What they need to do is implement fast lift automatic gates at the 3 level crossings, so that they aren't down so long. Irish Rail also need to take a good look at the post Covid world and determine whether doubling the number of trains will be necessary, with the drop in commuter numbers/increase in hybrid work week.

I completely disagree with this point of view. Regardless of an increase in work from home culture Dublin will continue to grow and demand will increase over the decades. Have we not learned our lessons of not providing adequate public transport in this Country? Having level crossings remain in place will instantly limit the amount of trains that can pass each hour. This is a safety issue first and traffic issue second.

Some traffic should be removed from Dr Troy Bridge with a new bridge a few hundred metres to the east of this bridge. Additionally a new road and bridges to the west of the proposed Kellystown development linking the Westmanstown area to Hansfield should pull lots of traffic away from Clonsilla area completely.

Again I stress the key is to provide a high frequency, good speed rail service and this can only be achieved by closing the level crossings. This will naturally move people away from their cars and onto public transport.

beauf · 13-02-2021 1:04pm

There's two problems with this.

There isn't the rail capacity. D15 always last when it comes to transport infrastructure. Even if they remove the level crossings they haven't the rolling stock for the current frequency never mind an increased frequency. Be the time they fixed this it will be another 20 yrs.

Its pushing all this road traffic into one small area, that's already congested. Regardless of the extra bridge. The routes to and from the bridge on either side are already congested and bottlenecked.

So there is no where for this extra traffic to go. For example. Will it go to Castleknock which they've made slower with the new junction for the Supermarket? Will it go into the Park at Mount Sackville? No they are planning on making that cul Dr Sac. So will it all go through Chapelizod? That tiny gridlocked road.

Will it go out Blanch Centre? Will it go to Lucan, will it go to M3 and M50.

All bottlenecks,. Every direction.

I do agree that once they can a lot of WFH will be retracted. Unfortunately.

beauf · 13-02-2021 1:10pm

IngazZagni wrote: »

I...
Some traffic should be removed from Dr Troy Bridge with a new bridge a few hundred metres to the east of this bridge. ...

All that will do will draw more traffic in. All the new housing being built will use Dr Troy. So there will be a net increase on Dr Troy.

Dr Troy bridge we were told would reduce traffic. It has increased it ten fold. There are plans for even more apartment blocks still over the area. They will all use this bridge.

beauf · 13-02-2021 1:12pm

This thread started 4 yrs ago. The amount of new housing since then all over D15 is vast. The majority of it car users.

Have trains improved in 4 yrs? Have buses? Have they legalised eScooters, have they improved cycle lanes for electric bikes?

Chrisam · 13-02-2021 1:36pm

beauf wrote: »

There's two problems with this.

There isn't the rail capacity. D15 always last when it comes to transport infrastructure. Even if they remove the level crossings they haven't the rolling stock for the current frequency never mind an increased frequency. Be the time they fixed this it will be another 20 yrs.

Its pushing all this road traffic into one small area, that's already congested. Regardless of the extra bridge. The routes to and from the bridge on either side are already congested and bottlenecked.

So there is no where for this extra traffic to go. For example. Will it go to Castleknock which they've made slower with the new junction for the Supermarket? Will it go into the Park at Mount Sackville? No they are planning on making that cul Dr Sac. So will it all go through Chapelizod? That tiny gridlocked road.

Will it go out Blanch Centre? Will it go to Lucan, will it go to M3 and M50.

All bottlenecks,. Every direction.

I do agree that once they can a lot of WFH will be retracted. Unfortunately.

Yes, you're right. Too much traffic being attracted to the area, as it is. Keep building bridges and traffic (that would have avoided an area with a level crossing) will fill the void. The TII report on the M50 orbital route, linking N3 and N4, also relies on these roads.

Interestingly Irish Rail cited their Merrion Gate fast lift level crossing as world class, in a parliamentary question, in 2019. Fast lift gates are also the norm in Europe. Bridges aren't the answer, investing in rail infrastructure is. Oh yes, and having the rolling stock to use them!

The Royal Canal is a wonderful resource for the area. Walk, cycle and canal it now and the only concrete flyover, between Castleknock and Clonsilla, is Dr Troy. If Irish Rail get their way, there'll be four new modern bridges (plus 1 at Barberstown), destroying this wonderful amenity. The level crossings upgrade means we can enjoy the best of both.

Phil.x · 13-02-2021 1:36pm

ongarboy wrote: »

Clonsilla residential site sells for 43pc over its guide price

https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/clonsilla-residential-site-sells-for-43pc-over-its-guide-price-40077663.html

Site opposite Clonsilla train station (between new Lidl and the Protestant church) has potential for over 60 apartments according to article. 2 minutes walk from train station will be very attractive selling point when the apartments come on the market.

Depressing

beauf · 13-02-2021 2:33pm

Phil.x wrote: »

Depressing

Be great if they could use the Greenway down the canal into town...oh yeah no progress on it in D15..

How about a cycle route from clonsilla into town, on the road. Oh yeah no cycle lanes. How about getting a bike on a train. Oh yeah no facilities.

But lets build a bridge for more cars.

Guess we'll all have to use eScooters. Oh yeah still not legal.

Guess better stick to driving.

IngazZagni · 13-02-2021 2:36pm

What do we want? More housing! Better public transport! Where do we want it? Nowhere near me!
I despair reading threads like this. Dublin will never be modernised with attitudes like this. It’s not a D15 thing. It’s everywhere. The outcry over upgrading the Green Luas line to Metro spec are even louder.
Trying to put a greenway path in the Coolmine area. Locals up in arms. My back garden might be exposed to the public!
Some might say that we need more housing in Dublins centre. I agree but we have the locals in those areas resisting this too. How dare we have anything above 9 stories in the Docklands etc.

/rant

Brock Turnpike · 13-02-2021 2:40pm

IngazZagni wrote: »

What do we want? More housing! Better public transport! Where do we want it? Nowhere near me!
I despair reading threads like this. Dublin will never be modernised with attitudes like this. It’s not a D15 thing. It’s everywhere. The outcry over upgrading the Green Luas line to Metro spec are even louder.
Trying to put a greenway path in the Clonsilla area. Locals up in arms. My back garden might be exposed to the public!
Some might say that we need more housing in Dublins centre. I agree but we have the locals in those areas resisting this too. How dare we have anything above 9 stories in the Docklands etc.

/rant

You seem to constantly miss the point in these threads. It's impressive.

IngazZagni · 13-02-2021 2:43pm

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

You seem to constantly miss the point in these threads. It's impressive.

Nope it’s quite clear to me you don’t want any development in D15. Your solution is less housing which will result in less traffic. Oh and keep this bang average looking bungalow because ??? History? It doesn’t matter that it’s right beside a future Dart Station.

ongarite · 13-02-2021 3:44pm

beauf wrote: »

Be great if they could use the Greenway down the canal into town...oh yeah no progress on it in D15..

How about a cycle route from clonsilla into town, on the road. Oh yeah no cycle lanes. How about getting a bike on a train. Oh yeah no facilities.

But lets build a bridge for more cars.

Guess we'll all have to use eScooters. Oh yeah still not legal.

Guess better stick to driving.

You can thank NIMBYism for a lot of the failure to deliver these things in D15.
Everyone wants improvements in D15 just not near where they live.

Canal cycle route is all but finished to Midlands except in D15. Powerful NIMBY lobby don't want their idyllic back yards disturbed.

Same with cycle lanes, look at the backlash over the cycle lane on the Hartstown/Mountview Road.
Same thing with Bus Connect grand plan for D15.

Infrastructure local planning & resourcing needs to be taken away from councillors to national body who are removed from local lobbying & NIMBYs

beauf · 13-02-2021 4:03pm

IngazZagni wrote: »

Nope it’s quite clear to me you don’t want any development in D15. Your solution is less housing which will result in less traffic. Oh and keep this bang average looking bungalow because ??? History? It doesn’t matter that it’s right beside a future Dart Station.

Seems you want ad hoc planning, more cars, and for these to be given preference over all other considerations.

Well if you can't beat them join them. Before Covid I had given up the annual train ticket, (which I've had for a very long time) and gone back to the car. So job done.

Good luck with the Dart, but I needed a solution now, not for the grand kids.

beauf · 13-02-2021 4:13pm

ongarite wrote: »

You can thank NIMBYism for a lot of the failure to deliver these things in D15.
Everyone wants improvements in D15 just not near where they live.

Canal cycle route is all but finished to Midlands except in D15. Powerful NIMBY lobby don't want their idyllic back yards disturbed.

Same with cycle lanes, look at the backlash over the cycle lane on the Hartstown/Mountview Road.
Same thing with Bus Connect grand plan for D15.

Infrastructure local planning & resourcing needs to be taken away from councillors to national body who are removed from local lobbying & NIMBYs

A lot of this ins't Nimbyism, its because the tactic is to present a flawed stupid plan as Hobson's choice. Then any reasonable alternatives or anyone pointing out the flaws, is shot down as Nimbyism. Which means they can dismiss this and go with what ever they wanted anyway.

So the end result is we are getting more housing, more cars. Still no improvements in cycling, trains or buses. So more traffic.

So the solution to traffic is more traffic. The solution to congested areas and bottle necks is more bottlenecks usually in the same location as existing congestion and bottlenecks.

Good luck with that.

Chrisam · 13-02-2021 8:39pm

I agree with beauf that a lot of this isn't Nimbyism, but frustration on how the different pieces of the jigsaw jar with each other. Case in point: Kellystown, planned alongside a canal, without proper access points planned. Focus is on pedestrian and cycle links with Clonsilla Rd ...where there's no space for cyclists and a very narrow path! Developer given green light to apply to APB, before Council have agreed Local Area Plan. Proposed bridge Coolmine: scores 4th of 8 options in Irish Rail's own matrices, yet is put forward as preferred option, even though it contravenes the agreed development plan for the area. FCC say they are building communities, but focus is on 1 and 2 bed apartments, which doesn't lend itself to families, and will mainly be rental (with large absentee landlords). I would much rather houses and brownfield sites closer to Dublin were refurbished, rather than the build up/out approch, which really only fills developers' pockets.

beauf · 13-02-2021 9:39pm

Be interesting how the phoenix park meeting goes.

IngazZagni · 14-02-2021 11:29am

Chrisam wrote: »

Focus is on pedestrian and cycle links with Clonsilla Rd ...where there's no space for cyclists and a very narrow path! Developer given green light to apply to APB, before Council have agreed Local Area Plan. Proposed bridge Coolmine: scores 4th of 8 options in Irish Rail's own matrices, yet is put forward as preferred option.

These proposals were not listed in order of Irish Rails preferred options, they were simply options that were graded. Option 1 at Coolmine sort of looks good on paper but when you realise that there would be 6.5 metre walls directly outside people's homes as well as the bridge not providing dedicated cycle lanes at all due to lack of space as well as potentially having to demolish Kirkpatrick bridge which is a protected structure. All of this caused uproar in consultation and I agreed with many of the concerns of this option. Option 3, while not perfect was the best option proposed in my opinion.

Chrisam · 14-02-2021 12:35pm

IngazZagni wrote: »

These proposals were not listed in order of Irish Rails preferred options, they were simply options that were graded. Option 1 at Coolmine sort of looks good on paper but when you realise that there would be 6.5 metre walls directly outside people's homes as well as the bridge not providing dedicated cycle lanes at all due to lack of space as well as potentially having to demolish Kirkpatrick bridge which is a protected structure. All of this caused uproar in consultation and I agreed with many of the concerns of this option. Option 3, while not perfect was the best option proposed in my opinion.

Have a good look at MCA 1 in the Irish Rail documentation and spot the inconsistencies in it. 8 errors. That result in a convenient outcome. I notice Irish Rail didn't include level crossing upgrades in their list of 8 options.

Anyhow IR are merely doing FCC's bidding on this. Using a Railway Order to get a bridge approved, that FCC couldn't get agreed in the Fingal Development Plan. Using inaccurate data. You couldn't make it up.

beauf · 14-02-2021 12:57pm

I love the faux concern about cycle lanes from IR, FCC and non cyclists in order to choose their preferred option for car traffic.

IngazZagni · 14-02-2021 1:51pm

Ireland of old didn't give a damn about cyclists. Nobody debates that. Thats no excuse to have substandard cycling infrastructure in new projects going forward.

It's wrong to think that because one won't see the benefits of faster and more frequent trains for years or perhaps only peoples children or grandchildren will be able to utilise it then we shouldn't bother at all?
This is a defeatist attitude. Always strive for better for your City and Country.

Level crossings weren't one of the options because that defeats the purpose of the whole project slowing down trains and limiting services per hour. Oh and if you thought traffic was bad at level crossings pre covid, just see it if they max out frequencies with level crossings. It won't be pretty. Indeed I made an admittededly cynical comment during the consultation in this regard to close level crossings for 2 or 3 hour periods at rush hour. The reaction was amusing.

beauf · 14-02-2021 3:21pm

IngazZagni wrote: »

Ireland of old didn't give a damn about cyclists. Nobody debates that. Thats no excuse to have substandard cycling infrastructure in new projects going forward.....

It's Tokenism as a strawman.

Imagine they close coolmine crossing and don't build the proposed new bridge. But instead spend that money improving the existing cycle lanes and connecting them perhaps providing safe bicycle lockers at Blanch Centre, and a multiple cycle highways from D15 to city center.

Or we build a bridge for cars with cycle lanes which connect to no useful cycle lanes and keep the existing cycle lanes for example there are none to and through castleknock village. There are none to and through Chapelizod, there are none to Phoenix park. There are none on Clonsilla road. All require you to squeeze down narrow roads with motorists traveling too fast.

What we are deciding to do is improve none of this cycling infrastructure but increase the volume of cars on these same roads that cyclists are squeezed on.

But yeah the bridge is a positive for cycling. More money for more cars. Woohoo.

IngazZagni · 14-02-2021 6:43pm

Bus connects project deals with dedicated cycle lanes from Blanch Centre to the City Centre. It's only 1 part of the puzzle of course.

I'm not sure I know exactly what you want. Close the level crossings and provide no alternative? I mean that's a fairly extreme anti car view but fair enough.

Yes many of the routes you mention could do with much better cycling lanes but the reality is many of our old roads are simply too narrow to achieve this without making them one way and that will cause a backlash no politician will back I feel.

No solution will work for everyone and I feel we constantly fall between the stools that means we have substandard public transport and roads that suits no one.

beauf · 14-02-2021 7:21pm

.Same with cycle lanes, look at the backlash over the cycle lane on the Hartstown/Mountview Road.
..

Lets look at those cycle "lanes. There is 30-40ft of verge either side.Why did they not use that and instead of paint and slap down half assed kerbs to narrow the road? It was poorly designed and poorly implemented. That's why it got such a poor reception.

donvito99 · 14-02-2021 7:26pm

Chrisam wrote: »

Interestingly Irish Rail cited their Merrion Gate fast lift level crossing as world class, in a parliamentary question, in 2019. Fast lift gates are also the norm in Europe. Bridges aren't the answer, investing in rail infrastructure is. Oh yes, and having the rolling stock to use them!

Irish Rail/the NTA are trying to get rid of the Merrion Gates and replace with a bridge, so one can only presume that bridges and grade separation are in fact that answer.

And that would amount to investing in rail infrastructure.

And they are investing in rolling stock, hundreds of carriages for the Maynooth line upgrade which is the next bit of electrification proposed. Elimination of level crossing is essential, it's why the Northern Line can run 20 trains per hour and the line south of Pearse cannot.

beauf · 14-02-2021 7:30pm

IngazZagni wrote: »

Bus connects project deals with dedicated cycle lanes from Blanch Centre to the City Centre. It's only 1 part of the puzzle of course.

I'm not sure I know exactly what you want. Close the level crossings and provide no alternative? I mean that's a fairly extreme anti car view but fair enough.

Yes many of the routes you mention could do with much better cycling lanes but the reality is many of our old roads are simply too narrow to achieve this without making them one way and that will cause a backlash no politician will back I feel.

No solution will work for everyone and I feel we constantly fall between the stools that means we have substandard public transport and roads that suits no one.

It's those narrow roads you want to stuff all this increased traffic down. Don't have problem with that though. Funny that.

The reality all of these solutions are car centric. The topic thread is congestion in Dublin 15. That so much money is spent on facilitating cars and a pittance on every thing else. Says everything about where the priority is.

beauf · 14-02-2021 7:37pm

IngazZagni wrote: »

...Close the level crossings and provide no alternative? I mean that's a fairly extreme anti car view but fair enough.....

There's no other way to get people out of cars and reduce congestion. Except by being anti car.

donvito99 · 14-02-2021 7:44pm

The Dutch probably do trains better than anyone else, and as part of their plans to remove as many level crossings as possible they've said:

“Level crossings are already a major cause of rail and road infrastructure disruption and, therefore, do not fit in a future that holds increased rail traffic density.”

https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/article/100005/prorail-reduce-risk-level-crossings/

15 trains per hour (as proposed under the Maynooth Dart plan) simply will not be work without eliminating all level crossings.

beauf · 14-02-2021 8:07pm

No one wanted the level crossing to remain open. They just didn't want the new bridge.

Once it was realised a new bridge was going to be the only option, the justification being to take the traffic from the level crossing. Then people wanted the level crossing back, so the traffic didn't a new bridge.

This then can be twisted into people don't want the rail changes, and don't want changes NIMBYs etc.

The agenda really is about more cars. It's got nothing to do with the trains really. As you don't need the bridge to facilitate the train.

You could close the crossing tomorrow as a trial. Perfect time now with the reduced traffic. Even during the lockdowns last year.

Dublin 15 is going to get a lot more congested.

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