Heavyweight Boxing

squinn2912

Enjoyed catching up on all

of this it’s been a brilliant fight for discussion.

my thinking is that Joshua can improve in plenty of areas even a little bit and that would give him an excellent chance of winning. He did get to Usyk who had to hold on once and that was with virtually no commitment. We’ve discussed how he could have thrown combos rather than singles and not get hit, he could be stronger and heavier and surely they could work on him being rougher and better in close.

add to that that Usyk might not be just as good again. There are plenty of ways for him to win even if as Eddie says he’d be underdog. Enacting the rematch is the only gig in town for him unless he can get the fight with the winner of Fury and wilder but why would they fight him when they could be undisputed?

normanoffside

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117947137#Comment_117947137

Haha, Just watched it. It looks like Loma told him to go away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNjMsxnpZ0U

walshb

There seems to be rush here to dismiss AJ in a rematch far too quickly. It comes across as a dislike/contempt, as well as a “I told ya so.”

They have fought once, not twice/three times. Let’s at least discuss/consider areas where AJ can improve..

Glaring for me was the complete lack of commitment/snap on his punches. Even his backhand was thrown like a jab. There was next to no actual rotation in his shoulders and hips the whole night. Gunshy to bits

Can he come back in the rematch to deliver a far more committed and determined punching display? Time will tell, but to blankly dismiss his chances comes across as a dislike more than anything.

The Usyk has his number line doesn’t work for me. One fight, lads…that’s it. He wasn’t dominated or beaten up. He was simply beaten on points by a man who clearly wanted it more, as well as a talented and resourceful man.

iebamm2580

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948180#Comment_117948180

haha pot kettle, you are 0/4 that we know of predicting fury purely on your dislike for the man, joshua has been beaten twice now, yes he could come back and deliver a ko but odds are he wont.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948260#Comment_117948260

I never once backed against Fury based off a dislike of him. Don’t be so silly.

Do you even know the fights I bet against him in?

Wlad: majority people picked Wlad

Wilder 1: many picked Wilder

Wilder II: again, people picked Wikder. Look how close he came to the KO

You’re coming across as baiting and trolling here.

I am picking Fury for Oct 9, even though I want Wilder to KO him

Your assertion that my predictions against Fury are down to a dislike are ridiculous. It makes no sense to predict like that.

Had you stated I always want Fury to lose, that would be fair enough.

And AJ has been beaten twice now. But once by Usyk. This is what we’re discussing. He avenged the Ruiz loss. To be so certain he has no chance to avenge the Usyk loss is the topic

iebamm2580

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948277#Comment_117948277

You have just made the exact same argument here about people saying Joshua lose when the facts bare out a stronger argument that he will lose rather then your constant predicting of fury going to lose. Your lack of self awareness is impressive. I am not trolling, didnt you pick derek chisora to beat fury too? What was the reasoning behind that? Your dislike is clouding your judgment, i am not the only one here who has mentioned your constant complaining about fury. I dislike joshua but still have predicted he would win most of his fights. Either you are a terrible predictor of fights or your fury dislike is clouding your judgment which is it? How you could pick against fury in wilder 2, he had come back from being 27st and still ran rings around wilder but you didn't think with even more training he could beat him? he won the first fight too, and only an idiot would say otherwise.

walshb

Fury was novice/green fighter vs Chisora..Chisora was unbeaten and the favorite: and back then I had no feeling about him. He was a complete unknown. So that prediction absolutely could not have had any sort of dislike vibe off it

pointess discussing if you can’t see a valid boxing reason for thinking Wlad and Wilder could have beaten Fury

Wilder II: not at all unreasonable to think Wilder could have gotten a KO here, considering what happened in their first fight.

Again, your assertion that these picks by me were only due to a dislike is complete nonsense. Strange you can’t see this.

but, probably likely I now get the Oct 9 prediction wrong. Jinxed!

oh, and regarding AJ/Usyk 2: I have not said who I think wins. Am simply saying to flatly dismiss an AJ win doesn’t make sense to me.

iebamm2580

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948311#Comment_117948311

You have said peoples dislike for joshua is why they are predicting he will lose again, the facts done bare out your argument. Most people are basing on what they saw saturday. Amazing you cant see how your constant predicting of fury to lose is the exact same argument you are making when people say Joshua will lose AGAIN. Facts are joshua has lost twice, so its more likely your prediction of fury losses is due to you dislike of the man whereas people saying usyk will beat joshua gain is based on what we actually saw. BTW i though wlad would beat fury, after that i wont be predicting a fury loss again.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948351#Comment_117948351

You’re missing the point. It’s not picking against him I am highlighting. It’s flatly dismissing him to even take a rematch..or that he has NO chance

I will probably pick Usyk in fight 2. But I certainly would not be so certain about it, nor would I be talking about Usyk having his number based off one fight, or discouraging him from even trying. That’s a nonsense to me

same way my backing against Fury in those 3 big fights. I was not flatly saying he had no chance. I was just thinking that Wilder and Wlad would win. And certainly in Wilder II, I was never professing that Fury shouldn’t go for a rematch, nor that he had no chance to win

iebamm2580

You said people are dismissing joshua IN a rematch due to dislike/contempt. I disagree as most of us are going on what we saw Saturday and other fights. We will leave it at that because we wont agree.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948384#Comment_117948384

Flat out dismissing does come across as either an ignorance of boxing, or a real want for him to fail…a dislike of the man.

boxing is littered with examples of beaten fighters reversing g decisions, and some, emphatically.

there is a lot I, and others see where AJ can really improve, to give himself every chance of being very competitive in fight 2: I am simply surprised that some can’t see, or won’t consider/entertain this.

iebamm2580

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948394#Comment_117948394

He always has a chance, i would say 30:70, he could ko usyk , always a possibility, but your fanboy of joshua is baffling to me and you might say the same to me about fury, difference is fury has always backed up his talk.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948394#Comment_117948394

i am more siding with you on this in that i do think its not impossible for Joshua to turn it around, however i think his issues are more mental than physical at this point so a whole change of team is probably what it needs. A bit like mcgregor know in UFC, he is surrounded by a team of yes men who have done nothing to advance his skillset since the Alvarez fight, i think Joshua is the same.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948413#Comment_117948413

Absolute nonsense. Fanboy Joshua.....? I am as praising and critical of him in equal measure...

Because I think he is a word class HW does not at all mean I'm his fanboy. In today's HW game, he is a world class HW.

Are you a Fury fanboy because you rate him very highly? I rate Fury very highly, probably number 1 at HW now. Dislike the person

AJ comes cross as somewhat likable, but I agree, he is a bit contrived

iebamm2580

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948483#Comment_117948483

we will agree to disagree, but people are basing their future judgements on aj usyk, due to what they saw, vast majority went for aj saturday so your argument that people are saying he will lose next time due to dislike of aj holds no water. Think you may have phrased your argument wrong because it doesn't make sense when most people thought he would win Saturday so i don't think people just started disking aj after the fight.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948497#Comment_117948497

Again, never said people picking Usyk to win in fight 2 is based off a dislike for AJ.

No idea why you are seeing this. It has been pointed out clearly to you my point.

Flatly dismissing his chances, or the suggesting that it's pointless to even rematch, comes across as an ignorance of boxing, or a told ya so dislike for him, and a real want for him to lose. Hey, and if people dislike him, and are being clouded here because of it, so what. What's the issue?

iebamm2580

"There seems to be rush here to dismiss AJ in a rematch far too quickly. It comes across as a dislike/contempt, as well as a “I told ya so.”

What does your exact words mean so?

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948537#Comment_117948537

The word "dismiss"......in other words, not even entertaining the possibility/chances or wanting to rematch. This comes across illogical to me. Either an ignorance of boxing, or a I told ya so kind of dislike

You hear it so much about AJ anyway...the slating his hype and slating his beating this lad and that lad, and who has he beaten, and he's so fake and all that...

It stands to reason that to then flatly dismiss the chance of a rematch or the chance to reverse or do better in a rematch comes across as a I tolda ya so dislike.

Again, why would that be an issue? It's human nature.

iebamm2580

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948613#Comment_117948613

You said in a rematch not as in accepting a rematch, you phrased it wrong if that's what you meant. Its not an issue just find it funny that you wouldn't accept it is a possibility for you*(human nature) predicting fury's losses when you have such a strong dislike of him.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948627#Comment_117948627

I never flatly dismissed Fury in the Wilder rematch, nor flatly dismissed him in the Wlad fight. I simply said that I thought he would lose...

And I do not have a "strong" dislike for him. I just don't like him as a person. He comes across poorly for me. Hey, he could be sound as a pound in person.

None of us know these people in person. Our judgments are based off how they carry themselves in public, and for me, Fury disappoints. Not always.

Let's iron one thing out here: Never once did I back against him because I disliked him. That is just plain silly.

Oct 9 I am picking a Fury win.

iebamm2580

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948667#Comment_117948667

Man, you phrased your sentence wrong so, you said people were picking against aj IN a rematch due to dislike, that's clearly not the case as most picked him to win before Saturdays fight so loads of people don't just all of a sudden dislike aj and now pick against him, they are going on what they saw. Furys has said stupid stuff in the past, but the last few years he has been comedy gold and not said much controversial. How is it plain silly when you suggested people were going against aj due to dislike?

yourdeadwright

I wonder what Rob & AJ think of Hearn's interview last night ,

He said he told AJ more than once not to over think the fight & to not try to box him & Aj got it his game plan horrible wrong ,He also said they are all so set on a rematch because they know AJ performed terribly & with a terrible game plan ,

I also see Spencer Fearon saying Hearn told him a few weeks ago AJ injured his right arm ,Spencer also lambasted the thinking behind AJ's gameplan

I think AJ bought way to much into thinking he is a wise thinking man & it really bite him hard,

Lot of talk about how his ring walk was too relaxed hugging people in the crowd & chatting to people instead of being focused on the fight,

iebamm2580

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948818#Comment_117948818

Def thought the ringwalk was odd, did he at one stage, go to kinda hug somebody in the crowd, way too happy looking, def bought into his own wise man, student of the game ****.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948707#Comment_117948707

Possible semantics or misinterpretation. Simple: Picking against him in a rematch could have zero to do with dislike...

I meant to imply/mean that to flatly dismiss his chances to win, or to even take/consider the rematch was looking like one, or both of two things....that's what it comes across like. Either not understanding boxing all that well, and/or just not liking AJ.

AJ isn't all that like/respected as a fighter here, And that is fine. For me he comes across well, albeit a bit contrived. As a boxer he is world class rated today, but doesn't do it for me overall historically. He has glaring weaknesses.

Blanco100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948311#Comment_117948311

To be honest an AJ win in the rematch doesn't make any sense.

You put so much emphasis on KO power, you seem to back the puncher. You backed Wilder to land a hail Mary punch and now you think there is credence in AJ bombing out Usyk which let's be honest, is the only way he can win.

I think you like playing the contrarian a lot of the time but I do enjoy your posts as they spark debate, they would be some of the first I look for on here if I'm honest.

iebamm2580

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948869#Comment_117948869

OK we will leave it at that, think he comes across incredibly self obsessed and a few other videos like i posted show his mindset, as whyte said not a nice guy and i tend to agree, you are entitled to your opinion.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948849#Comment_117948849

It was someone he know;s wife, which was bizarre,

Blanco100

Who gives a damn about whether Fury or AJ are nice guys. It's like the Ronaldo Messi rubbish at this stage, although in terms of historical significance neither are in the league of a Ronaldo or Messi.

I'm not really a fan of either, I like watching good fighters. My impartial view is that Fury is simply the better fighter. HW boxing is one of the only sports where the skill level has actually regressed over time. Size is now king, in the land of super heavyweights, it's Fury who is the most skillful. Now again, I don't rate hus standing in the pantheon of greats, but his size and movement make him a real handful. Build up to his fights are usually more entertaining than the fight itself but he has good skill level, a lot of heart and he has good ring IQ, even if his punch mechanics are not aesthetically pleasing, he knows how to win.

Joshua looks the part, but there are too many key components missing in order to call him a world class HW. Suspect chin, poor movement and bad natural stamina. It's also now looking like he has lost some of his bottle. I remember Wlad had to completely change his style, when he started he let his hands go and looked exciting, Joshua did similar but as the competition gets better (both suffered humiliating KOs) you need to change your style, adapt to protect that suspect chin whilst also not sacrificing all of your offence.

Wlad bored a lot with his jab jab straight right, he didn't throw an uppercut for 15 years but he found a way, and had killer instinct to finish a guy when he was hurt. Joshua has not shown this ability. Now he may have this ability but he sure as hell hasn't shown he can deviate. He is stuck in between. Not good enough to be a boxer puncher, but afraid to let the hands go for fear of getting hit. Critical critical flaw. You could KO or outbox Joshua. Or grind him down. A few ways to beat him, which you shouldn't be able to say with a really top HW.

Being based in UK, being born an A-side fighter has been his curse in long run as much as it has blessed him with riches. He was fast tracked to stardom by match room, is their money making machine, the Wlad fight was the false dawn as it gave them a false sense that he was almost a finished article, that win was sheer luck.

They really should have went to work on him then, prior to that fight and after he was positioned into fights in which he overmatched his opponent. First time he stepped out of his comfort zone in US, he absolutely bombed, another red flag. He still manages to look green to me.

Its one of 2 things:

1) he just hasn't got it

2) he needs to take a step back from chasing titles and big money, change his team, step out of spotlight and brand AJ and learn with a new coach, preferably in the US. Where he is just another fighter.

Step 2 requires hunger, but it's his only option. McCracken and co might not be the problem, it might be option 1 above but he has to explore all avenues to find out.

Listening to his management team who may only see short term with him now may not be in his best interests. He is young enough to rebuild away from the fake bravado of chasing rematches he is grossly overmatched in.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948923#Comment_117948923

Not sure where I said anything about bombing out in a rematch....I didn't

Wilder-Fury: Sure what else way would anyone back Wilder (a big puncher) to beat Fury? It's likely his only hope, and of course, he can/could have done it....

Majority people backed AJ to KO Usyk, me included. It was nothing to do with placing too much emphasis on KO power. It was more to do with a big heavier man who has power maybe landing clean and flush on a clearly smaller man. It made perfect logical boxing sense

AJ win in a rematch doesn't make sense? So, you are saying he cannot reverse it? Not possible? Surely he has a chance, even if Usyk is a favorite..

Are you telling me that you saw no clear areas where AJ can greatly improve, and in doing so give himself a decent shot to avenge the defeat?

I can see areas. Three clear: One is in the clinch.....FFS, AJ, get your act togeher and at least try be the boss here, as opposed to stiffening up, hugging and holding on for dear life against a man who is 25 lbs lighter, and not known as a great inside operator

Two: put some venom and commitment on your punches. Rotate you bloody hips and shoulders and commit to your offense, as opposed to tip and tap and jabbing with your backhand.

Three: difficult this, but AJ, quit being scared that you will be stopped or lose. You're the former HW champion of the world, and this is boxing, not tickling. Give it your best go, and if you lose via KO or points, at least now you actually gave it everything, as opposed to doing your best not to gas or get stopped.

I am not the only poster here thinking the rematch is worthy of a shot, or that AJ can at least give it a better go second time around.

Same way you are not the only poster seeming to completely dismiss the rematch as pointless, because AJ has no chance.

Blanco100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949083#Comment_117949083

As I said Walshb I do genuinely enjoy your posts, I wasnt being sarcastic.

But in terms of areas for improvement, what evidence is there that he can improve in those 3 areas? Even under his current regime?

Guys who were telling him he was fantastic throughout the fight. I thought that was astounding, I actually know Rob McCracken from about 15 years back, the guy is no mug or yes man, he was doing that for a reason, AJ is fragile, he obviously goes to pieces with criticism or being told in a direct manner that he's behind.

When has Joshua shown any ability in the clinch? Using his size to wear out another fighter even a smaller one? I've never seen it. He doesn't fight like a guy with physical advantages.

The man in him will want the rematch no doubt but to get to the level needed to win will take alot longer, it's not a case of reverting to the 3 areas you mention for improvement, because he has never excelled in these areas let alone against an elite fighter.

New training camp with new team, adapt his style, be humble enough to step out of limelight, take apart his style, build himself up with new trainer, away from UK, couple of warm up fights and yeah maybe there is defined plan to avenge his defeat. And even at that he may just not have the ability.

Nothing I have seen in the guys career to date says he has a chance in that rematch. And I'm loathe to blame his coaches as yes men, but we need to see a change to see if someone can teach the dog new tricks.