Heavyweight Boxing

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

I see what you mean.

But he beat who was around during his time..

"Fight for fight fantasy" based, he would be top ten ever....

He would be hell for any fighter ever...

For me , only a prime Tyson, 70s Foreman, 90s Bowe/Holyfield, LL would be ones I'd have some sort of confidence to beat him...

Personally I think Tyson and Holyfield get beat up against today heavyweights there just to small for them ,

Bobby Baccala

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Personally I think Tyson and Holyfield get beat up against today heavyweights there just to small for them ,

They were both athletic freaks of nature though, Holyfield had it out with big men like Bowe and held his own

Bowe would smash all the current heavys as well

yourdeadwright

Bobby Baccala wrote: »

They were both athletic freaks of nature though, Holyfield had it out with big men like Bowe and held his own

Bowe would smash all the current heavys as well

Again I don't think he smashes any of them, good fights but he doesn't "smash them"


Yep Tyson was a freak for his size, but again the old question has anyone ever seen Tyson win a fight ? Ye he steam rolled poor opposition but he's never won a fight where he faced trouble or his opponent was not afraid of him ,
We seen it v Lewis ye I know Tyson was old but Lewis was older ,


Again timing of his jail term leaves us always wondering what if with Tyson

The Nal

Bobby Baccala wrote: »

Larry Holmes on a good day

Larry Holmes on most days. Such an underrated boxer. Criminally so really especially when Tyson who came after him is so overrated.

But thats another story.

Also Danny Williams was a punchbag.

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Personally I think Tyson and Holyfield get beat up against today heavyweights there just to small for them ,

Are you for real?

AJ, got whacked by Ruiz, yet a prime Tyson from the 80s couldn't do it? He'd obliterate Wilder, Fury and AJ in the same night....

Mike from 1986-1988....Far too heavy handed, steel chinned and aggressive.

Holyfield would murder them as well

Go watch Holyfield vs a 6 feet 5 inch 235 lbs Peak Bowe, who was far more polished than anything today...

Fury put on his arse by absolute bums.......Tyson kills Fury...

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

Larry Holmes on most days. Such an underrated boxer. Criminally so really especially when Tyson who came after him is so overrated.

But thats another story.

Also Danny Williams was a punchbag.

Tyson whacked Holmes good and proper, though. And would have any time; Tyson is a horrible match for Larry.

Tyson gets dissed for his losses more than any other HW....

Most his losses after he was past his best and out of prison.

His sole loss pre prison was against a very prepared and focused Douglas, when we all know Mike was not near as prepared as he should have been.

walshb

normanoffside wrote: »

I don't think taking 8 rounds to get rid of Williams was great, and he lost to Lewis who was supposed to be fighting an easy opponent in his retirement fight.

After Williams he went on a 4 year injury break.

Like yourself I think Prime Vitali would beat most of the current crop fairly easily but his resume doesn't stand up to even the Lewis/Bowe/Holyfield era (never-mind being considered an all time great).

Williams was not elite. I get this; I just think during that span, Vitali looked at his best....

The Nal

walshb wrote: »

Tyson whacked Holmes good and proper, though. And would have any time; Tyson is a horrible match for Larry.

Tyson gets dissed for his losses more than any other HW....

Most his losses after he was past his best and out of prison.

His sole loss pre prison was against a very prepared and focused Douglas, when we all know Mike was not near as prepared as he should have been.

Course, but part of being great is being prepared!

Tyson whacked a retired 38 year old Holmes. Agree he may have beaten him anyway though.

Point being, Holmes was a true great which he doesn't always get credit for. 20 title defences and was 48-0 (aged 36) when he lost to Spinks. Lunatic had 25 fights after that too.

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Are you for real?

AJ, got whacked by Ruiz, yet a prime Tyson from the 80s couldn't do it? He'd obliterate Wilder, Fury and AJ in the same night....

Mike from 1986-1988....Far too heavy handed, steel chinned and aggressive.

Holyfield would murder them as well

Go watch Holyfield vs a 6 feet 5 inch 235 lbs Peak Bowe, who was far more polished than anything today...

Fury put on his arse by absolute bums.......Tyson kills Fury...

In that run from 1986-1988 who did Mike beat of note ? In that period he went the distance which household names such a James Till, Mitch Green, James Smith , Tony Tucker, ,


He isn't running through any of todays heavy weights,


Your quick to write of Mikes loss to Douglas but not AJ's to Ruiz ,
Douglas was far worse at the time than Ruiz is now ,


Also Mike was much smaller that Ruiz Mike was 5'10 and always around 220lbs , Ruiz is 6'2 and between 255-265 ,


As amazing he is to watch finishing people and the utter destruction he caused if he had your number I still think he is also one of the most overrated fighter's of all time .,


Yes he was amazing for such a small guy and was robbed of his best years ,but for me it's a story of what IF for Mike,

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

Course, but part of being great is being prepared!

Tyson whacked a retired 38 year old Holmes. Agree he may have beaten him anyway though.

Point being, Holmes was a true great which he doesn't always get credit for. 20 title defences and was 48-0 (aged 36) when he lost to Spinks. Lunatic had 25 fights after that too.

And lost to a LHW....whom Tyson obliterated

Look we can pick holes here there and everywhere with all them....

All prepared and on their best day......Tyson is right up near the top....

BDI

Tyson would put Joshua out in a round. Not even a round a flurry.

He might be wary of wilder but takes his time and beats him in 4 or 5.

Fury might be able to antagonize him and lightly rub Tyson’s forehead with his jab enough times to get a points win but probably not.

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

In that run from 1986-1988 who did Mike beat of note ? In that period he went the distance which household names such a James Till, Mitch Green, James Smith , Tony Tucker, ,


He isn't running through any of todays heavy weights,


Your quick to write of Mikes loss to Douglas but not AJ's to Ruiz ,
Douglas was far worse at the time than Ruiz is now ,


Also Mike was much smaller that Ruiz Mike was 5'10 and always around 220lbs , Ruiz is 6'2 and between 255-265 ,


As amazing he is to watch finishing people and the utter destruction he caused if he had your number I still think he is also one of the most overrated fighter's of all time .,


Yes he was amazing for such a small guy and was robbed of his best years ,but for me it's a story of what IF for Mike,

Buster Douglas at peak was 6 feet 4 and 220 +. He was a better HW than any Ruiz

Seriously, if you think AJ survives a peak Tyson, then I don't really know what to say to you........

How does Wilder beat Mike? How does AJ beat Mike? How does Fury beat Mike?

I didn't write off Tyson's loss to Douglas,. He got beaten. He was not as prepared as he should have been; it is well known.

Douglas fought an amazing fight that night. Ram rod jab, fit as a fiddle, every punch in the book....

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

,




Also Mike was much smaller that Ruiz Mike was 5'10 and always around 220lbs , Ruiz is 6'2 and between 255-265 ,


,

What does this mean? Are you saying that an obese HW is somehow a better specimen than 220 lbs of solid power and muscle?

Ruiz was couple inches taller, and many many "fat" lbs heavier...

Question; Are you thinking that fooking Andy Ruiz also beats a prime Tyson?

Parker/Chsiora/Ortiz/Povetkin, as well?

The Nal

walshb wrote: »

And lost to a LHW....whom Tyson obliterated

Look we can pick holes here there and everywhere with all them....

All prepared and on their best day......Tyson is right up near the top....

No question, in theory. But we'll never know! Fact is he never did it.

Tysons loss to Douglas is the worse loss of any top heavyweight in history though. We do know that.

walshb wrote: »

Douglas fought an amazing fight that night. Ram rod jab, fit as a fiddle, every punch in the book....

Which Tyson just stood there and took. Looked awful. He really struggled when other fighters took it to him.

BDI

What if old manny goes up to heavyweight, will he beat iron mike too?

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

No question, in theory. But we'll never know! Fact is he never did it.

Tysons loss to Douglas is the worse loss of any top heavyweight in history though. We do know that.

It's the biggest odds upset........that is all.

Tyson that night, albeit not as prepared, would still have murdered AJ/Wilder and Fury...and any HW today.

Douglas fought brilliantly that night. Watch the fight, put Wikipedia down, and just watch the tools, skills, array of shots, fitness and commitment from Douglas.

Nobody is telling me that what we are seeing today is better.....

Chsiora/Parker/AP/AJ/Wilder/Fury have not got near the skills and array of offenses as was shown that night in Tokyo

Guys, the HW division is pants today.....

People here rate Wilder as very basic and crude; apart from his power, he gets slated for his talents and skills.

AJ gets slated by so many as stiff, robotic, weak chinned, no stamina......

Fury: Couldn't burst a wet paper bag.......drooped by absolute bums...

This is not all me. This is what gets said on here

Yet, a prime Tyson cannot beat the HWs today?

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

No question, in theory. But we'll never know! Fact is he never did it.

Tysons loss to Douglas is the worse loss of any top heavyweight in history though. We do know that.



Which Tyson just stood there and took. Looked awful. He really struggled when other fighters took it to him.

Yes, he took a pasting. Like I said, he was not prepared the way he should have been. He is not the first, and won't be the last great boxer who didn't prepare for ALL fights.

Simple question: Focus and prepared Tyson against any HW today........

Take AJ.....who wins, and how?

Wilder: Who wins, and how?

Fury: Who wins, and how?

The Nal

walshb wrote: »

Douglas fought brilliantly that night. Watch the fight, put Wikipedia down, and just watch the tools, skills, array of shots, fitness and commitment from Douglas.

Watched it at the weekend, and the 42 to 1 documentary, hence my posts about it. Douglas fought well but Mike was just shocking.

walshb wrote: »

Yet, a prime Tyson cannot beat the HWs today?

I struggle to place "prime Tyson". When was it? Berbick to Douglas? 2 years?

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Buster Douglas at peak was 6 feet 4 and 220 +. He was a better HW than any Ruiz

Seriously, if you think AJ survives a peak Tyson, then I don't really know what to say to you........

How does Wilder beat Mike? How does AJ beat Mike? How does Fury beat Mike?

I didn't write off Tyson's loss to Douglas,. He got beaten. He was not as prepared as he should have been; it is well known.

Douglas fought an amazing fight that night. Ram rod jab, fit as a fiddle, every punch in the book....

How did the greats of James Till, Mitch Green, James Smith , Tony Tucker, survive a peak Tyson ? How did Douglas a no hoper beat him,

He was 30 years old when he lost to Holyfield twice,


AJ, Wilder and Fury have every chance to beat Mike Tyson in his prime,


Wilder would have ko'd James Till, Mitch Green, James Smith , Tony Tucker with ease , We are yet to see a man beat him and evey single man he face has hit the canvas, Did Mike Tyson ever get up from the Canvas to win a fight ?


We are yet to see a man beat Tyson Fury so the question is how does Mike beat him ,


Ruiz had Amateur record of 105-5 and as pro has been beaten once at the age of 30, Buster had lost 5 times at that stage and four where ko's,


In no world was Douglas a better boxer than Ruiz ,

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

Watched it at the weekend, and the 42 to 1 documentary, hence my posts about it. Douglas fought well but Mike was just shocking.



I struggle to place "prime Tyson". When was it? Berbick to Douglas? 2 years?

Tyson's prime is a clear as the day is long.

It was his 3 years stretch between mid 1986 up until late 1989....

His performances during this time were wicked. His speed, power, stamina, boxing ability, defense, rock solid chin, aggressiveness, and above all, relentless Kevin Rooney instilled focus.......

Rooney left after Spinks in June 1988.....Tyson then fought 7-8 months later v Bruno, and although still a menace, I could see a slight drop off.....

His showing vs Buster was clear that the man was not training and preparing the way he should, and like many others, these things happen...

The Nal

Not a great one for these "who would've beaten who" conversations. We really have no idea unless you go back 3 or 4 generations. EG We can say for sure that Tyson would've beaten Marciano easily, maybe in a round. But I've no idea how he would've stood up against Fury. Not sure he could've closed the distance against him. Or Wilder.

Would put money on him sparking AJ though who is criminally overrated and fights so small.

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

How did the greats of James Till, Mitch Green, James Smith , Tony Tucker, survive a peak Tyson ? How did Douglas a no hoper beat him,

He was 30 years old when he lost to Holyfield twice,


AJ, Wilder and Fury have every chance to beat Mike Tyson in his prime,


Wilder would have ko'd James Till, Mitch Green, James Smith , Tony Tucker with ease , We are yet to see a man beat him and evey single man he face has hit the canvas, Did Mike Tyson ever get up from the Canvas to win a fight ?


We are yet to see a man beat Tyson Fury so the question is how to Mike beat him ,


Ruiz had Amateur record of 105-5 and as pro has been beaten once at the age of 30, Buster had lost 5 times at that stage and four where ko's,


In no world was Douglas a better boxer than Ruiz ,

Prime Tyson v Ruiz? Who wins, and how?

You have given no breakdown of why a prime Tyson somehow cannot beat these HWs today, other than a lame "he is too small."

He was close on 6 feet and weighed 220 lbs of solid muscle, and was a vicious puncher; excellent combination puncher, with a steel chin, very good defense, very good stamina, and as aggressive a fighter as any in history. He also knocked out lads far taller and heavier....

How does AJ beat this? How does Wilder beat this? How does Ruiz beat this?

Seriously I am wondering if you have watched a peak Tyson from the mid 80s, and really analyzed how ruthlessly dangerous and effective he was...

Or maybe it's me, who needs to watch more of Ruiz, AJ, Wilder to realize that a prime Tyson cannot beat them?

ebbsy

walshb wrote: »

Tyson's prime is a clear as the day is long.

It was his 3 years stretch between mid 1986 up until late 1989....

His performances during this time were wicked. His speed, power, stamina, boxing ability, defense, rock solid chin, aggressiveness, and above all, relentless Kevin Rooney instilled focus.......

Rooney left after Spinks in June 1988.....Tyson then fought 7-8 months later v Bruno, and although still a menace, I could see a slight drop off.....

His showing vs Buster was clear that the man was not training and preparing the way he should, and like many others, these things happen...

Agree with ye there. I laugh at the people who beat Tyson after he got out of jail. Even Lewis thought it was an achievement. What a gob****e.

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Prime Tyson v Ruiz? Who wins, and how?

You have given no breakdown of why a prime Tyson somehow cannot beat these HWs today, other than a lame "he is too small."

He was close on 6 feet and weighed 220 lbs of solid muscle, and was a vicious puncher; excellent combination puncher, with a steel chin, very good defense, very good stamina, and as aggressive a fighter as any in history. He also knocked out lads far taller and heavier....

How does AJ beat this? How does Wilder beat this? How does Ruiz beat this?

Seriously I am wondering if you have watched a peak Tyson from the mid 80s, and really analyzed how ruthlessly dangerous and effective he was...

Or maybe it's me, who needs to watch more of Ruiz, AJ, Wilder to realize that a prime Tyson cannot beat them?

Firstly I never said he couldn't beat them you said he walks through the with ease I said he doesn't , Not walking through someone and not being able to beat them is different,


Can you tell me a fight where Tyson was put under big pressure and won ? Every time he was put in a fight he lost, He normally packed in to


I already named 5 guys who where far below todays top 5 who went the distance with Mike in his prime, Them 5 guys wouldn't lace the gloves of Fury, Wilder or AJ and managed to last the distance,


You aks how Wilder wins KO kind obviously , he has made every man he fought hit the deck, Did Tyson ever hit the floor and win ?


Tyson would struggle with the length of Wilder and Fury massively ,Can you name one heavy weight there size and in the elite level that Mike beat ?


Can Tyson beat them yes of course he has a chance of course but id favour the two big guys,


I think Tyson v AJ would be a cracking fight and one Tyson has the best chance of wining and would be favourite in
my opinion


Tyson went the distance with journey men in his prime on more than a few occasions, Any time he fought big names was after prison and he lost, He was only 30 as I said when Holyfield beat him twice,


Totally off point but crazy to think 46 year old Holyfield actually sparred with a 19 year old Ruiz,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Firstly I never said he couldn't beat them you said he walks through the with ease I said he doesn't , Not walking through someone and not being able to beat them is different,


Can you tell me a fight where Tyson was put under big pressure and won ? Every time he was put in a fight he lost, He normally packed in to


I already named 5 guys who where far below todays top 5 who went the distance with Mike in his prime, Them 5 guys wouldn't lace the gloves of Fury, Wilder or AJ and managed to last the distance,


You aks how Wilder wins KO kind obviously , he has made every man he fought hit the deck, Did Tyson ever hit the floor and win ?


Tyson would struggle with the length of Wilder and Fury massively ,Can you name one heavy weight there size and in the elite level that Mike beat ?


Can Tyson beat them yes of course he has a chance of course but id favour the two big guys,


I think Tyson v AJ would be a cracking fight and one Tyson has the best chance of wining and would be favourite in
my opinion


Tyson went the distance with journey men in his prime on more than a few occasions, Any time he fought big names was after prison and he lost, He was only 30 as I said when Holyfield beat him twice,


Totally off point but crazy to think 46 year old Holyfield actually sparred with a 19 year old Ruiz,

Wilder will not KO a steel chinned prime Tyson

Other that having a punch, Wilder has nothing to beat Tyson with. Very early KO win for Mike, who easily close distance, gets inside and whacks Wilder out...Wilder hasn't even a decent jab for chrissake. Easy KO win for Mike

AJ: Sorry, but you are probably one in a 1000 who thinks this to be even remotely competitive...Tyson's solid chin, and wicked power easily get to AJ for a very early KO, and not a Ruiz type win, but a clean on your back, lights out KO.....AJ has nowhere near the skills to be competitive, or the defense to keepTyson away, and nowhere near the chin needed to survive..

Fury: Not a hope. What has he got? The herky jerky feints, the piss poor power; he'd be lucky to land anything of note on Tyson. You have seen Tyson body attacks? Are you telling me that Fury avoids getting whacked clean on the chin for 12 rds, to dance around and outpoint Mike?

walshb

BTW, of the three mentioned above, it is Fury I rate with the best chance at beating Tyson.....his height, range and good feet, as well as his excellent clinching would be advantages. The other two have 0 chance...

selectamatic

I really don't want to get into this debate but it is worth pointing out that Buster Douglas was extremely lucky to get out of the 8th round in his fight against Mike.

Also an awful lot of the "small" HW's we have seen over the past 15 years have been absolutely terrible imo. Slow, head movement not near up to scratch and not near enough stamina; just awful really.

walshb

selectamatic wrote: »

I really don't want to get into this debate but it is worth pointing out that Buster Douglas was extremely lucky to get out of the 8th round in his fight against Mike.

Also an awful lot of the "small" HW's we have seen over the past 15 years have been absolutely terrible imo. Slow, head movement not near up to scratch and not near enough stamina; just awful really.

And this idea of small...

Wilder is actually smaller (or at least very similar) than Tyson if we go by weights.

He has 6-7 inches in height on him........

Fury is just a big man.....

AJ is a big man, but so what.......Tyson more than big enough to destroy him

Ruiz is just a fat man, who should not be near 250 + lbs......

Who else we got? AP......Not all that big.

Chisora? Fat man...

Whyte......similar to Chisora.....

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Wilder will not KO a steel chinned prime Tyson

Other that having a punch, Wilder has nothing to beat Tyson with. Very early KO win for Mike, who easily close distance, gets inside and whacks Wilder out...Wilder hasn't even a decent jab for chrissake. Easy KO win for Mike

AJ: Sorry, but you are probably one in a 1000 who thinks this to be even remotely competitive...Tyson's solid chin, and wicked power easily get to AJ for a very early KO, and not a Ruiz type win, but a clean on your back, lights out KO.....AJ has nowhere near the skills to be competitive, or the defense to keepTyson away, and nowhere near the chin needed to survive..

Fury: Not a hope. What has he got? The herky jerky feints, the piss poor power; he'd be lucky to land anything of note on Tyson. You have seen Tyson body attacks? Are you telling me that Fury avoids getting whacked clean on the chin for 12 rds, to dance around and outpoint Mike?

You talk about steel chinned Tyson but he lost against anyone half decent he fought, I know most of them where after prison but that his own fault,


You also talk about his power and he blows Wilder , AJ, Fury away but yet in his prime Smith , Green, Tills, Tucker all lasted the distance with Mike ?


You seem to think Mike is some unstoppable terminator that he just is not, What would you consider his best win ?


Wilder can ko's any man he hit's including Mike, Lets not forget unlike his name sake Fury, Mike never got up from the floor to win a fight he always packed in ,


Again Mike Tyson in my opinion one of the most over rated fighter of all time, I stil love watching his ko's but most against journey men or over the hill guys,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

You talk about steel chinned Tyson but he lost against anyone half decent he fought, I know most of them where after prison but that his own fault,


You also talk about his power and he blows Wilder , AJ, Fury away but yet in his prime Smith , Green, Tills, Tucker all lasted the distance with Mike ?


You seem to think Mike is some unstoppable terminator that he just is not, What would you consider his best win ?


Wilder can ko's any man he hit's including Mike, Lets not forget unlike his name sake Fury, Mike never got up from the floor to win a fight he always packed in ,


Again Mike Tyson in my opinion one of the most over rated fighter of all time, I stil love watching his ko's but most against journey men or over the hill guys,

Against AJ and Wilder he would be an unstoppable terminator.....he KOs both with ease.....

I disagree that Wilder KOs Mike if he connects clean....Wilder would have to hit him with several follow ups, and I cannot see that....

Watch Tyson at peak, he was never ever knocked down or really hurt with any single type shot. You had to brutalize him to put him away, and at peak, nobody brutalized him. Peak being 1986 - 1989

Bruno momentarily rocked him in 1989.....but that was for a split second, and Bruno could hit.

Hell, even a clearly past peak Mike had to be whacked consistently to put him away.

Mike Tyson took an absolute belter of a shot, and his physiology was the key. Squat, stocky, solid, short, with a 20 inch shock absorber of a neck...