Time to have a look at how people can get Irish passports?

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

First off, I would retain every Northern Irish citizen the birth right to hold an Irish passport. For historical, future and practical reasons it is the only correct way for it to be.

Having said that, there will be 1 million new Irish passports handed out this year to people who might have no real links to Ireland. 'The Granny Rule' is just about acceptable when it comes to running a soccer team, but is it really good enough when it comes to how a country should decide how citizenship works?

Our population is less than 5 million, yet 6 million British people are entitled to a passport, how many more Americans and Australians and others could bring this number up to the 10's of millions.
There's basically too many people around the world who can claim to be Irish, we are a fairly unique country in that our diaspora is multiples of our actual domestic population.

Nationalism has a strange history in Ireland, but at the very least a basic oath of allegiance to the Irish state/people I think should be brought in for anybody that wants a passport (and possibly bring in a moderate fee/payment of some kind which can help weed out people getting an Irish passport 'for the craic').

I ultimately think that having an Irish Granny and filling out a form and handing it into an embassy isn't good enough for the situation we are in currently. And that measures making it a little less open to abuse should be considered.

Thoughts?

recedite

This is an old link, but probably even more valid today.

The Nigerian man I was dealing with told me that the Irish passport is easy to alter and is now easy to obtain. It used to be worth more on the black market but the greater availability has resulted in the price people are prepared to pay dropping substantially.

Agent Smith

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Nationalism has a strange history in Ireland, but at the very least a basic oath of allegiance to the Irish state/people I think should be brought in for anybody that wants a passport (and possibly bring in a moderate fee/payment of some kind which can help weed out people getting an Irish passport 'for the craic').


Thoughts?

If people Feel they have a link to Ireland, and they Are entitled to Have an Irish passport due to "the Granny rule" - let them.

They aren't free, They have to be paid for.

Quin_Dub

recedite wrote: »

This is an old link, but probably even more valid today.

Utterly irrelevant with the new passports..

recedite

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Utterly irrelevant with the new passports..

Biometric passports introduced in 2006.
Since then, fake or modified Irish passports have been used by Israelis, and Russians, not to mention the unknown number of people traveling around Ireland and the EU on unmodified passports "lost" by their brother or cousin who has managed to obtain Irish citizenship legitimately.

Anita Blow

I think a rule similar to the US for transmitting citizenship would suffice- Parent had to have been a citizen prior to your birth and spent at least 5 years in Ireland (with at least 2 being after the age of 12).

killbillvol2

recedite wrote: »

Biometric passports introduced in 2006.
Since then, fake or modified Irish passports have been used by Israelis, and Russians, not to mention the unknown number of people traveling around Ireland and the EU on unmodified passports "lost" by their brother or cousin who has managed to obtain Irish citizenship legitimately.

Your links are from 2010. If you'd bothered to read them the first one actually states that the passports used were pre 2005.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Agent Smith wrote: »

If people Feel they have a link to Ireland, and they Are entitled to Have an Irish passport due to "the Granny rule" - let them.

They aren't free, They have to be paid for.

Well I was trying to communicate that in my OP. If it was people who sincerely feel they have a link to Ireland and wish to gain Irish citizenship then there is nothing stopping them, and that's obviously grand.

I'm raising a concern regarding the current situation, as it allows for a person to gain citizenship a little bit too easily. They may have never even stepped foot in Ireland, have one Irish grandparent they might never have met, and could have zero affinity to Ireland or its people.
Gaining citizenship purely for convenience or political (Brexit) reasons are not good enough in my opinion.

I think an oath of allegiance, having some basic citizenship test, and a higher financial commitment before a passport is initially granted would be a better way to approach the situation.

A Little Pony

I don't know why some people get into such a huff about it. My brother has one and he is a Unionist, my sister has one and she is a Unionist. It is just a passport, it doesn't mean anything.

seamus

I'm wondering what the problem is that's attempting to be solved here?

Irish passports being given out to people who are legally entitled to them. Why is that a problem?

All My Stars Aligned

Arn't the Netherlands now talking about having to give up any other citizenship in order to hold a Dutch passport.

I can't think of any real issues that people holding Irish passport along with another may cause though.

Jim2007

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I think an oath of allegiance, having some basic citizenship test, and a higher financial commitment before a passport is initially granted would be a better way to approach the situation.

Your concern about the current situation, but you're happy to sell Irish citizenship at the same time to the exclusion on the less well off. What a model citizen you are! I've heard enough?

seamus

Netherlands have been doing it for a while:
https://ind.nl/en/Pages/Renouncing-your-current-nationality.aspx

Doesn't apply if you're Irish though because it's not legally possible for an individual to renounce Irish citizenship. Only the Minister for Justice can revoke it, and only then to naturalised citizens.

recedite

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

I can't think of any real issues that people holding Irish passport along with another may cause though.

I'd prefer to see everyone only allowed to have one passport.

Let's say somebody using an Irish passport to get somewhere which would be difficult on their "main" passport.
A jihadist leaving the UK for Syria might be stopped by British police if using a British passport. An Israeli traveling into an arab country.

Another completely different scenario is somebody committing some crime while abroad, and asked to hand in their passport to police. Mush easier to scoot off home if they have a spare passport in their suitcase.

Everyone should have one passport. Make your mind up, and nail your colours to the mast. You have a responsibility to your country, and your country has some responsibility towards you. But don't abuse it.

XVII

There's basically too many people around the world who can claim to be Irish

eh? so you basically don't like the current system, because it's too many people?

Capt'n Midnight

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

Arn't the Netherlands now talking about having to give up any other citizenship in order to hold a Dutch passport.

I can't think of any real issues that people holding Irish passport along with another may cause though.

an aside

this is a major problem for Dutch citizens who want to remain in the UK for a few years before returning home

Thomas__

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

First off, I would retain every Northern Irish citizen the birth right to hold an Irish passport. For historical, future and practical reasons it is the only correct way for it to be.

Having said that, there will be 1 million new Irish passports handed out this year to people who might have no real links to Ireland. 'The Granny Rule' is just about acceptable when it comes to running a soccer team, but is it really good enough when it comes to how a country should decide how citizenship works?

Our population is less than 5 million, yet 6 million British people are entitled to a passport, how many more Americans and Australians and others could bring this number up to the 10's of millions.
There's basically too many people around the world who can claim to be Irish, we are a fairly unique country in that our diaspora is multiples of our actual domestic population.

Nationalism has a strange history in Ireland, but at the very least a basic oath of allegiance to the Irish state/people I think should be brought in for anybody that wants a passport (and possibly bring in a moderate fee/payment of some kind which can help weed out people getting an Irish passport 'for the craic').

I ultimately think that having an Irish Granny and filling out a form and handing it into an embassy isn't good enough for the situation we are in currently. And that measures making it a little less open to abuse should be considered.

Thoughts?

The increase of applications for and issuing of Irish Passports according to the "Granny Rule" has certainly less to do with getting it "for the craic" as much more to do with this stupid Brexit thing. The main reason is for them to get an Irish passport in order to secure their EU citizenship with it. Not too far from the driving force for other UK citizens to apply for citizenship in that EU member state they live in, becoming a naturalised citizen.

Without the BrexitRef result from last year, there hadn´t been such a rush by people to apply for an Irish passport. But it also went the other way, EU nationals applying for UK citizenship in GB in order to secure their right of residence, as the UK govt is still leaving the EU nationals in limbo regarding their future residence rights and status after Brexit.

I´m not sure whether it´s some good idea to introduce an oath of allegiance for new Irish citizens, cos in situations like described above, everyone would easily take such an oath in order to get the Irish passport and I don´t know what sort of ideas you´d have in mind to make them prove that they are taking it seriously and sincere. It´d be a bid deal of work to have that taken in person by every single applicant. So, to make it more simple and easy for both sides (applicant and passport office) oath taking might had to signed on a document by the applicant. Either way doesn´t give you any guarantee that the applicant is really that serious in taking the oath.

Elmo

The Grandparent rule is also a continuous rule. Your mother/father must also be Irish citizens. So if your parents are unwilling to have the craic then your stuck with passports that don't have an entertainment value. (or if they are dead and never held a passport)

Economically for a small nation it is important to keep those ties, we actually need to use our Irish Diaspora more efficiently and not just those with Grandparents (and I am not suggesting we give citizenship to people who's ancestors left during the famine), but their should be programmes for people with Irish ancestry.

Also we don't know how many applications are refused.

Fratton Fred

recedite wrote: »

Everyone should have one passport. Make your mind up, and nail your colours to the mast. You have a responsibility to your country, and your country has some responsibility towards you. But don't abuse it.

That just isn't realistic in today's world.

I know kids who are of Irish/ other European country parentage and who flit seamlessly between the two countries. Why should they have to "Nail their colours" to any flag?

Or more specifically, isn't this what the eu wants? ever closer union with citizens who are just european as opposed to citizens of any particular eu country?

recedite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I know kids who are of Irish/ other European country parentage and who flit seamlessly between the two countries. Why should they have to "Nail their colours" to any flag?

Kids can't "flit seamlessly" anywhere, except during the annual summer holiday. They grow up and go to school in the country they live in, and that is what shapes them most.
I have nieces/nephews in Germany, and they are most definitely German. They can still call themselves "half Irish" and have Irish names, but there is no reason for them not to have a German passport.

We should expect the same of the kids of immigrants coming to this country. The vast majority are quite happy to integrate and "be" Irish.

View

Fratton Fred wrote: »

recedite wrote: »

Everyone should have one passport. Make your mind up, and nail your colours to the mast. You have a responsibility to your country, and your country has some responsibility towards you. But don't abuse it.

That just isn't realistic in today's world.

I know kids who are of Irish/ other European country parentage and who flit seamlessly between the two countries. Why should they have to "Nail their colours" to any flag?

There is no reason why they shouldn't be citizens of both countries, given they are the product of both countries.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Or more specifically, isn't this what the eu wants? ever closer union with citizens who are just european as opposed to citizens of any particular eu country?

No it isn't. The EU is a union of sovereign nations and a person is a citizen of a particular member state (or particular states if applicable). Had the EU's nations any interest in replacing citizenship of the nation states with an EU citizenship, they could have put that in the treaties years ago.

Peregrinus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Or more specifically, isn't this what the eu wants? ever closer union with citizens who are just european as opposed to citizens of any particular eu country?

Not at all; the complete opposite, in fact. The only way to be a citizen of the EU is to be a citizen of a member state. It's conceptually impossible to be just an EU citizen.

In the context of Brexit, somebody has floated the idea that, post-Brexit, UK citiziens should be allowed to, in effect, buy EU citizenship. It's not an idea that has attracted a huge amount of support on the EU side, and I predict that it will be quietly buried because (apart from the fundamentallly offensive notion of selling citizenship) it's such a radical reversal of the current concept of EU citizenship.

Fratton Fred

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not at all; the complete opposite, in fact. The only way to be a citizen of the EU is to be a citizen of a member state. It's conceptually impossible to be just an EU citizen.

In the context of Brexit, somebody has floated the idea that, post-Brexit, UK citiziens should be allowed to, in effect, buy EU citizenship. It's not an idea that has attracted a huge amount of support on the EU side, and I predict that it will be quietly buried because (apart from the fundamentallly offensive notion of selling citizenship) it's such a radical reversal of the current concept of EU citizenship.

so presuming federalisation happens, individual countries will still issue their own passports?

LeinsterDub

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so presuming federalisation happens, individual countries will still issue their own passports?

That's such a big presumption that no one can comment on it

OldMrBrennan83

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Fratton Fred

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That's such a big presumption that no one can comment on it

Is it? Our passports are already to a set european standard and have European Union on them, above the name of the issuing country.

Thomas__

Patww79 wrote: »

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So, you´d discriminate your own fello citizens after they went abroad to take on a job and settle there, having their children born in another country and refuse their children to be Irish citizens as descendants of Irish citizens. If that´s not cruel than I don´t know what is.

Jesus wept!

OldMrBrennan83

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cantwbr1

Patww79 wrote: »

I'm not saying take passports off people that move and settle elsewhere. But yeah I wouldn't let their kids have one if they're born abroad because, well, they're born abroad. Or, like I said as an alternative, of possible allow the kids to have some form of passport but not at the same level as someone born in the state.

Either way, I don't see how not allowing someone's kids to have a passport can be classed as cruel to a person that's emigrated.

My son was born in Singapore when I was working there. Singapore does not give citizenship to children born in Singapore to non-citizens.
Your proposal would mean my son would be stateless.

Thomas__

Patww79 wrote: »

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I'm not saying take passports off people that move and settle elsewhere. But yeah I wouldn't let their kids have one if they're born abroad because, well, they're born abroad. Or, like I said as an alternative, of possible allow the kids to have some form of passport but not at the same level as someone born in the state.

Either way, I don't see how not allowing someone's kids to have a passport can be classed as cruel to a person that's emigrated.[/quote]

You sound like someone who thinks that once someone emigrates he or she will never return and that they´ve cut off themselves from this country. I don´t think that any of the Irish expats would agree with you to say the least, they would probably would have a go at you and I wouldn´t mind them doing so.

OldMrBrennan83

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