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Time to have a look at how people can get Irish passports?

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24

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    #32
    Thomas__
    Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Thomas__


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    If he was born in Singapore then it sounds like something to take up with them rather than Ireland (hypothetically, as I know Ireland hands them out no problems currently). Should we really be taking up the slack to allow other countries not to though?

    Thomas__ wrote: »
    You sound like someone who thinks that once someone emigrates he or she will never return and that they´ve cut off themselves from this country. I don´t think that any of the Irish expats would agree with you to say the least, they would probably would have a go at you and I wouldn´t mind them doing so.

    Where did I say that? They don't cut themselves off, hence they are allowed to keep their passports. Where did I say the passports should be taken from them? Thanks for the passive aggressive threats anyway.[/quote]

    You imply to have their children refused to get Irish passports issued and that´s the point I was making. I´m not responsible for "passive aggressive threats", I was merely telling what the reaction of expats would be. That´s all.


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    #33
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #34
    Thomas__
    Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Thomas__


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    You really sound like someone who has never left his neck of the woods by your opinion.


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    #35
    Thomas__
    Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Thomas__


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    You really sound like someone who has never left his neck of the woods by your opinion.


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    #36
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    cantwbr1 wrote: »
    My son was born in Singapore when I was working there. Singapore does not give citizenship to children born in Singapore to non-citizens.
    Your proposal would mean my son would be stateless.
    If he is growing up in Ireland he would become a naturalised Irish citizen anyway, similar to an immigrant.
    If he stays in Singapore and grows up there, then I don't see how it's Ireland's problem if they don't grant him Singapore citizenship, but I'm guessing they probably would grant it in reality.


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    #37
    Thomas__
    Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Thomas__


    recedite wrote: »
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I know kids who are of Irish/ other European country parentage and who flit seamlessly between the two countries. Why should they have to "Nail their colours" to any flag?
    Kids can't "flit seamlessly" anywhere, except during the annual summer holiday. They grow up and go to school in the country they live in, and that is what shapes them most.
    I have nieces/nephews in Germany, and they are most definitely German. They can still call themselves "half Irish" and have Irish names, but there is no reason for them not to have a German passport.

    We should expect the same of the kids of immigrants coming to this country. The vast majority are quite happy to integrate and "be" Irish.

    You clearly have no idea about German citizenship and how this is to get obtained by people with no German ancestry. It really depends on many aspects such as where they are born, when they are born, the citizenship and residence status of their parents. You´re guessing very much and take things for granted which are in fact not granted the way you presume they might be. All in order to save you the issuing of Irish passports for Irish people living abroad.  

    Born and raised in Germany doesn´t make a person automatically German per se. It is the cultural background of the parents and their citizenship that comes into it as well. For children born from the year 1999/2000 onwards, they can have German citizenship in case their parents fulfill the conditions for that, if not at least one parent is German him- / herself. Otherwise, when both parents are of different citizenship, they have to provide the proof that the conditions required for that are fulfilled.

    As you say that your relatives are "half-Irish" and assuming that the other part of their parents is German, well, then they have indeed German citizenship. If not, it depends on what is stated above if that is the case, which depends on their date of birth (the year to be precise and whether they were born in Germany).

    Citizenship is a complex matter with a huge effect on every person, more so on children when they live abroad or have parents of a different nationality to the country they live in.

    I really find it astonishing how some posters here are that mindless regarding their fellow countrymen and -women abroad, as if they were some "outcasts" or "traitors to their nation". I really have no understanding for such a stance. It´s a really very narrow minded angle from which some leading their argument.


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    #38
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    That's such a big presumption that no one can comment on it

    Is it? Our passports are already to a set european standard and have European Union on them, above the name of the issuing country.

    Sovereign nations deciding to use a common standard for particular items doesn't make a Federation.

    And, it should be pointed out that in even the most decentralised Federation (e.g. Switzerland), the Federal government issues the passports (not the states/cantons/lands) and the names of the state/canton/land of the passport holder are not included on the passport cover.


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    #39
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    View wrote: »
    Sovereign nations deciding to use a common standard for particular items doesn't make a Federation.

    Yes, I know. But the eu has an objective of ever closer union of people and states, so where does that lead to? Federalisation?
    View wrote: »
    And, it should be pointed out that in even the most decentralised Federation (e.g. Switzerland), the Federal government issues the passports (not the states/cantons/lands) and the names of the state/canton/land of the passport holder are not included on the passport cover.

    yes I know, The US passport doesn't have Texas or California on it either.

    As it stands, any passport issued in the Schengen area is practically a passport for the entire zone already, so it is only a small step to making it a schengen passport.

    It all comes down to what does this "Ever Closer Union" mean and where does it lead? It's not as if federalisation is an alien concept within europe already.


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    #40
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Nothing's been agreed yet.


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    #41
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Yes, I know. But the eu has an objective of ever closer union of people and states, so where does that lead to? Federalisation?

    It leads wherever the member states want it to lead. I know it's fashionable in some Euroskeptic quarters to believe that the EU is going to somehow sneakily force its members into a federation without their knowledge or consent, but that don't make it so.


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    #42
    LirW
    Registered Users Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    This actually leaves me a bit in a limbo. I'm together with an Irish man, we live in Ireland but I'm Austrian. We have a daughter, born in Ireland but at the moment she only carries an Austrian passport (simply because of the waiting times).
    If I'd marry him and want to claim Irish citizenship I have to hand my Austrian passport back because as a born Austrian with Austrian parents I can only hold one citizenship. I'd do it in a heartbeat but I have another son who's Austrian too and it would be the same for him.
    Since we're in the EU it doesn't matter too much and both citizenships are pretty much equal.

    I just find the rule somewhat retarded, but hey. I know that the AUT government is dealing with a lot of passport fraud from Turkish Austrians.


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    #43
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It leads wherever the member states want it to lead. I know it's fashionable in some Euroskeptic quarters to believe that the EU is going to somehow sneakily force its members into a federation without their knowledge or consent, but that don't make it so.

    Who said anything about knowledge or consent?

    We hear about the eu proposing two speeds, but speeds to where?


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    #44
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Who said anything about knowledge or consent?
    If the member states enter into a federation with knowledge and consent, what's the problem?
    We hear about the eu proposing two speeds, but speeds to where?
    To wherever the member states decide to go.


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    #45
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    If the member states enter into a federation with knowledge and consent, what's the problem?

    I didn't say it was a problem, but it seems to be a logical step if the eu is to go down the federalist route.


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    #46
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I didn't say it was a problem, but it seems to be a logical step if the eu is to go down the federalist route.

    I'm frankly at a loss as to what your point is.


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    #47
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm frankly at a loss as to what your point is.

    it was this, pretty simple.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    That just isn't realistic in today's world.

    I know kids who are of Irish/ other European country parentage and who flit seamlessly between the two countries. Why should they have to "Nail their colours" to any flag?

    Or more specifically, isn't this what the eu wants? ever closer union with citizens who are just european as opposed to citizens of any particular eu country?

    Making eu citizens "Nail their colours" to any country or flag is pretty much the opposite of what the european union is striving to achieve, is it not?

    I would have thought that a country telling someone that if they become a citizen of another eu country then they must relinquish citizenship of their own, goes against the principles of ever closer union.

    With so many children being born these days to parents of different countries, making them chose just one country seems very unrealistic and small minded.


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    #48
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Making eu citizens "Nail their colours" to any country or flag is pretty much the opposite of what the european union is striving to achieve, is it not?

    I would have thought that a country telling someone that if they become a citizen of another eu country then they must relinquish citizenship of their own, goes against the principles of ever closer union.

    With so many children being born these days to parents of different countries, making them chose just one country seems very unrealistic and small minded.

    It's not an EU competence. Citizenship of member states is a matter for those states.

    Will that change in the future? Who knows - but if it changes, it will be because the member states want it to.


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    #49
    Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo


    LirW wrote: »
    This actually leaves me a bit in a limbo. I'm together with an Irish man, we live in Ireland but I'm Austrian. We have a daughter, born in Ireland but at the moment she only carries an Austrian passport (simply because of the waiting times).
    If I'd marry him and want to claim Irish citizenship I have to hand my Austrian passport back because as a born Austrian with Austrian parents I can only hold one citizenship. I'd do it in a heartbeat but I have another son who's Austrian too and it would be the same for him.
    Since we're in the EU it doesn't matter too much and both citizenships are pretty much equal.

    I just find the rule somewhat retarded, but hey. I know that the AUT government is dealing with a lot of passport fraud from Turkish Austrians.

    Austria must be one of the hardest countries to deal with regarding citizenship anywhere in the world. Having to live in Austria for 30 continuous years before being allowed citizenship is surely a bit extreme. Not being allowed to hold dual citizenship in cases like yours is where it becomes even more unfair in how citizenship is treated there, it's basically splitting one family in two unnecessarily.
    Really stands in stark contrast to Ireland where you can apply and become a citizen and may never have even stepped foot in the country.


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    #50
    Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo


    Thomas__ wrote: »
    The increase of applications for and issuing of Irish Passports according to the "Granny Rule" has certainly less to do with getting it "for the craic" as much more to do with this stupid Brexit thing. The main reason is for them to get an Irish passport in order to secure their EU citizenship with it. Not too far from the driving force for other UK citizens to apply for citizenship in that EU member state they live in, becoming a naturalised citizen.

    Without the BrexitRef result from last year, there hadn´t been such a rush by people to apply for an Irish passport. But it also went the other way, EU nationals applying for UK citizenship in GB in order to secure their right of residence, as the UK govt is still leaving the EU nationals in limbo regarding their future residence rights and status after Brexit.

    I´m not sure whether it´s some good idea to introduce an oath of allegiance for new Irish citizens, cos in situations like described above, everyone would easily take such an oath in order to get the Irish passport and I don´t know what sort of ideas you´d have in mind to make them prove that they are taking it seriously and sincere. It´d be a bid deal of work to have that taken in person by every single applicant. So, to make it more simple and easy for both sides (applicant and passport office) oath taking might had to signed on a document by the applicant. Either way doesn´t give you any guarantee that the applicant is really that serious in taking the oath.

    That's more or less why I started the thread. It is not Ireland's fault that Brexit is happening, nor should it be our responsibility to facilitate British people with zero affinity to Ireland in obtaining a 'handy' EU passport.
    The 'Granny Rule' was put in place as a show of solidarity with Ireland's long and storied tradition of emigration. Now that it seems to have come back full circle, the rule should not be in place for people to use as a loophole to keep hold of EU citizenship. That reeks of abuse of the system to me.


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    #51
    Thomas__
    Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Thomas__


    Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »
    Thomas__ wrote: »
    The increase of applications for and issuing of Irish Passports according to the "Granny Rule" has certainly less to do with getting it "for the craic" as much more to do with this stupid Brexit thing. The main reason is for them to get an Irish passport in order to secure their EU citizenship with it. Not too far from the driving force for other UK citizens to apply for citizenship in that EU member state they live in, becoming a naturalised citizen.

    Without the BrexitRef result from last year, there hadn´t been such a rush by people to apply for an Irish passport. But it also went the other way, EU nationals applying for UK citizenship in GB in order to secure their right of residence, as the UK govt is still leaving the EU nationals in limbo regarding their future residence rights and status after Brexit.

    I´m not sure whether it´s some good idea to introduce an oath of allegiance for new Irish citizens, cos in situations like described above, everyone would easily take such an oath in order to get the Irish passport and I don´t know what sort of ideas you´d have in mind to make them prove that they are taking it seriously and sincere. It´d be a bid deal of work to have that taken in person by every single applicant. So, to make it more simple and easy for both sides (applicant and passport office) oath taking might had to signed on a document by the applicant. Either way doesn´t give you any guarantee that the applicant is really that serious in taking the oath.

    That's more or less why I started the thread. It is not Ireland's fault that Brexit is happening, nor should it be our responsibility to facilitate British people with zero affinity to Ireland in obtaining a 'handy' EU passport.
    The 'Granny Rule' was put in place as a show of solidarity with Ireland's long and storied tradition of emigration. Now that it seems to have come back full circle, the rule should not be in place for people to use as a loophole to keep hold of EU citizenship. That reeks of abuse of the system to me.

    In some cases it might look like that way. In other cases it is not.


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    #52
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I would have thought that a country telling someone that if they become a citizen of another eu country then they must relinquish citizenship of their own, goes against the principles of ever closer union.

    You are missing the point. An EU citizen living in another member state enjoys the same privileges as any other citizen. There is not need for them to take out citizenship of that state unless they wish to do so. If they so wish they can switch citizenship, but no one is requiring them to do so. State citizenship is not one of the competencies of the EU.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    With so many children being born these days to parents of different countries, making them chose just one country seems very unrealistic and small minded.

    No body is making them choose! Dual citizenship by birth is not the same thing as acquiring citizenship. But that said most kids I know it that situation (and I know quite a few) will have a stronger affinity to one country as opposed to the other. Both my grown up kids speak German, French and English fluently, but my son prefers to use English and my daughter German... My son will tell you he is Irish and travels on an Irish passport, while my daughter will tell you she is Swiss and uses her Swiss passport. It is just how it is.


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    #53
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #54
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,092 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    No body is making them choose! Dual citizenship by birth is not the same thing as acquiring citizenship. But that said most kids I know it that situation (and I know quite a few) will have a stronger affinity to one country as opposed to the other. Both my grown up kids speak German, French and English fluently, but my son prefers to use English and my daughter German... My son will tell you he is Irish and travels on an Irish passport, while my daughter will tell you she is Swiss and uses her Swiss passport. It is just how it is.
    But the fact that they may have a preference for one other the other is no reason to make they choose just one citizenship - still less so if, as is common, they value both.

    I have two citizenships, and two passports, and I travel on whichever one will make for the more convenient journey (in terms of visa requirements, border controls, etc). Both of my citizenships reflect real family and community attachments, although one is a birthright citizenship and the other was acquired by naturalization. Neither of the governments involved requires me to choose one citizenship to the exclusion of the other, and I would consider it oppressive if they did. And in an increasingly mobile and global world, situations like mine are going to be come more and more unremarkable.


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    #55
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    There are practical reasons why such an open policy isn't a good idea. It's the main impediment to giving at least a limited franchise to expats. There's no legal way of differentiating between someone like myself who lived in Ireland until I was 23 (24 now and living in Australia) and somebody who has never been to Ireland under the current framework.

    To those saying you should only have one passport, this is nonsense. I'm in Australia at the moment but I'm relocating to Canada next year. My job means I can't work in Ireland so I have no real choice but to make a life for myself abroad. Should I have to apply for a tourist visa to come home to Ireland to see my parents? Completely impractical.


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    #56
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,092 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    troyzer wrote: »
    There are practical reasons why such an open policy isn't a good idea. It's the main impediment to giving at least a limited franchise to expats. There's no legal way of differentiating between someone like myself who lived in Ireland until I was 23 (24 now and living in Australia) and somebody who has never been to Ireland under the current framework.
    Well, no, I don't think this is correct. It's perfectly possible to give the vote to e.g. citizens who are currently ordinarily resident in the state, plus citizens who have been ordinarily resident in the state in the past (say) ten years. That's more or less what they do in the UK, and I don't see why it would be unworkable in the Irish context.

    [Having said that, I myself don't favour giving votes to expats. (And I say this as an expat myself.) So if our relatively inclusive citizenship laws did make it difficult to extend voting rights to expats, I wouldn't see that as a problem. But that's mabye a matter for a different thread.]


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    #57
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    troyzer wrote: »
    There are practical reasons why such an open policy isn't a good idea. It's the main impediment to giving at least a limited franchise to expats. There's no legal way of differentiating between someone like myself who lived in Ireland until I was 23 (24 now and living in Australia) and somebody who has never been to Ireland under the current framework.
    Well, no, I don't think this is correct.  It's perfectly possible to give the vote to e.g. citizens who are currently ordinarily resident in the state, plus citizens who have been ordinarily resident in the state in the past (say) ten years.  That's more or less what they do in the UK, and I don't see why it would be unworkable in the Irish context.  

    [Having said that, I myself don't favour giving votes to expats.  (And I say this as an expat myself.)  So if our relatively inclusive citizenship laws did make it difficult to extend voting rights to expats, I wouldn't see that as a problem.  But that's mabye a matter for a different thread.]
    You might be right, but the UK also doesn't give out citizenship to so many people. 

    I'm on the fence about letting ex-pats vote. I think someone like myself right now should not be allowed to vote in my constituency. But I should be allowed to vote for referenda and the president. Failing that, we should at the very least have an Irish at large constituency with maybe three TDs representing all ex-pats. The French and the Americans have a similar system.


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    #58
    Thomas__
    Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Thomas__


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Really? Ah well, you'd be very wrong.[/quote]

    I don´t believe you but it doesn´t matter because you´re not in charge to amend anything at all and surely, it´s better that way.

    Slán.


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    #59
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    troyzer wrote: »
    You might be right, but the UK also doesn't give out citizenship to so many people. 

    plenty all the same
    In 2016, 149,400 foreign nationals naturalised as British citizens. This is down almost 30% from 2013 when citizenship grants reached almost 208,000, the largest annual number since records began in 1962 – but is still an increase on 2015’s total of 118,000 or 2014’s 125,000

    even taking around 100,000 a year means a million every decade


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    #60
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,092 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    And that's just naturalisations. Most people entitled to British citizenship by descent don't take it up by naturalisation, but by registration. I've no idea how many extra people that is, though, on top of the naturalisations.


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    #61
    Thomas__
    Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Thomas__


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    And that's just naturalisations.  Most people  entitled to British citizenship by descent don't take it up by naturalisation, but by registration.  I've no idea how many extra people that is, though, on top of the naturalisations.

    That´s the point some on this thread would like to see being abolished for those living and born abroad. That is also what I really find too harsh.


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