Canadian parent raising child as gender-neutral.

donegaLroad

Hunky Monster wrote: »

So I just read this article from the BBC.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40480386

To quote a small bit from the article...



Before post #3 asks what's OP's opinion....

Absolutely ridiculous. The poor child. As for its mother or whatever "THEY" want to be called, well you're a fücking idiot. I sincerely hope your child is taken from you to save HIM/HER from a life of absolute fücking misery. Hey read a science book you gowl.

that is a pretty typical Canadian thing to do alright

mzungu

gizmo81 wrote: »

And you understand the limitations of that study?

http://www.pitt.edu/~bertsch/Todd_et_al-2016-Infant_and_Child_Development.pdf

-Peer presence may have decreased the likelihood of play with other-gender- typed toys
-Potential effects of observers is chal- lenging;
-The effect of parent,
-Other adult or peer presence is likely to vary by age and sex of the participant,
-By sex and role of observer and
-By wider cultural context.
-In future studies, the relationship between young infants’ preferences and the beliefs and behaviour of their parents could be explored.

-However, it is possible that preferences relate to previous positive experiences of play with similar gender-typed toys selected by caregivers

-The results suggest both biological and developmental–environmental com- ponents to sex differences in object preferences.

It's impossible to know what role environmental factors had in play with the children.

Hardly impossible, one can draw their own conclusions aside from the obligatory caveat. Besides, you can observe typically different behaviour patterns among children. Environment is in there, but internally we are hardwired differently and that is always going to be the case. It is why children raised as the wrong gender after being born with ambitious genitalia will either eventually identify with their biological sex, or will report mental health problems. It it was all environment then they would not suffer all that distress, but they do suffer distress so we can rule out environment as being a major factor.

Will I Am Not

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

What is "gender" then, if not merely a set of roles to conform to?

So if we abolish the roles and regard gender and sex as one and the same, in other words mere physical characteristics, isn't that a better solution than introducing all of this bizarre and counter intuitive crap?

Here's an example:



Like... As a straight person what exactly are you supposed to say in response to this kind of stuff? I wouldn't touch another person's weiner if you paid me, but if the definition of "straight" can include having sex with people who are biologically the same sex as you, then what is the word for somebody who is only attracted to the same biological sex, without necessarily caring about "gender identity"?

It's very peculiar. Transsexual is intuitive - one who feels they were born in the wrong body and would like to swap. Nothing contradictory about that. Somebody who identifies as a woman and yet is happy to have a male body - what exactly are they saying, then? That they don't want to conform to male gender roles? That's perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned! But get rid of the roles themselves rather than trying to rewrite the entire English language to get around them, thus introducing ridiculous paradoxes along the way.

Again, those who do so come across as attention seeking - particularly when you get into the new new stuff like pan sexual, gender fluid, etc. It's rapidly becoming a meme among far right types to use the abbreviation "LGBTADSDFGHHKL;-/:(" or "LGBTOMGWTFBBQ" - and can you really blame them? The fact that people are being accused of being horrible people just because they don't approve of the "look at me, I'm special and unique" types who are undoubtedly driving a lot of the overly convoluted new concepts in all of this is ridiculous.

My word... that conversation :eek:
Please tell me this kind of stuff only happens in America?

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

My word... that conversation :eek:
Please tell me this kind of stuff only happens in America?

Unfortunately not. This way of thinking has infected our own colleges and universities. Only a matter of time before the school curriculum is going to be reviewed to change actual science and tell us all there's 72 different genders to keep some mental people happy.

It's happening.

Oh and if you don't like it, intolerant, insensitive, sexist, misogynistic, transphobic, you're literally hitler.

Professor Moriarty

Well, perhaps a perspective about a boy/mother relationship is apt. These are Muddy Waters (couldn't resist) so perhaps it's an appropriate time to listen to Mannish Boy.

Samaris

Mod: Enough with calling trans, intersex and/or non-binary people mentally ill. Cards happening on that [polite edit] nonsense from here out.

suicide_circus

Isnt this the logical next step of a world in which gender is none binary? Looks like people are tolerant enough to "humour" transgender adults but are writing cheques their conscience can't cash when it comes to making this notion of gender the default approach.

uck51js9zml2yt

suicide_circus wrote: »

Isnt this the logical next step of a world in which gender is none binary? Looks like people are tolerant enough to "humour" transgender adults but are writing cheques their conscience can't cash when it comes to making this notion of gender the default approach.

Of course gender is binary...male and female.
It's nuts to say anything else!

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Samaris wrote: »

Mod: Enough with calling trans, intersex and/or non-binary people mentally ill. Cards happening on that [polite edit] nonsense from here out.

I wasn't saying alltrans people are mentally ill. Not at all. Most trans people know it's weird and they don't try and inflict their preferred pronouns on everyone. This is woman is directly affecting a childs life. I however 100% believe that this woman (and she IS a woman) has some sort of mental condition. Apart from all the weirdness that is transitioning from f to m she's also trying to force her world view on a newborn baby, as is the child has already been refused a birth certificate, i can see a lot more problems on the way for this child as it grows older.

I mean her mother want's to be referred to as "they" ffs!! Absolute looper.

THEY.

Anyone see this bit at the end of the article..

The family's lawyer, barbara findlay, who chooses to spell her name without capital letters, told Global News: "The assignment of sex in.............

Batsh*t, the lot of them.

KKkitty

This is ridiculous beyond words. This child didn't ask for this at all. Whatever his/her's mother's agenda is it shouldn't transcend to the child. Slate me if you want but the internet has a lot to answer for with people identifying as makey uppey terms. You are born with a penis means you're male, you're born with a vagina you're female. If you have a sex change you don't get ovaries and a womb if you're male going to female. If you're female going to male you don't get testicles that can produce sperm. This child should be removed from it's so called mother before he/she becomes f**ked up because of it.

jackofalltrades

There's a special place in hell for posters who upside down quote.
Seriously Gizmo81 your posts are nightmare to read.

This all seems to be based about the sex recorded on official documents.
Since very few official documents record gender.
The argument seem to be we should give parents the ability to stop recording this, based on an absolutely tiny minority who could be discommoded in later life.
If we stop recording the sex of babies, how will we keep a track of this vital statistic.
What if there is a sudden change and we have no statistics to show.
This is a dangerous case of ideals above practicality.

How Soon Is Now

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

God I miss the days when men where men and women where women....

Now I dunno what the **** is going on half the time!

Simpler times I guess.

Rest assured, men are still men and women are still women. They'll go on raising babies with penises as boys who in time will become men and babies with vaginas as girls who in time will become women. Whether they're straight or gay is absolutely irrelevant when it comes their time to become parents.

It's the few who can't really figure out themselves if they're a man or a woman who are leading to all of this absolutely unnecessary guff. It can't be easy for them, but aside from having a bit of compassion and acceptance as a society for the individual and personal struggle those people face, there's ZERO reason for men and women to bother with any of the rest of the BS that surrounds them.

That baby is being used as a pawn now in a game where the parent has had a difficult personal journey and a whole bunch of interest groups are trying to use it to make a move on the board.

It's wrong. Plain and simple. If the baby has a penis, he's a boy and 'M' should be entered on the register. If the baby has a vagina, it should be 'F'. If in time that baby grows up and thinks that's the wrong entry, support should be given to correct it.

Sex and Gender are the same thing in the context of a Birth Certificate. If there's no evidence suggesting abnormal genitalia, the situation should not require nor facilitate any of this utter dung on the part of the parent(s) or associated interest groups. Boy or Girl. Write it down and get on with being a decent PARENT.

cgcsb

cgcsb wrote: »

As much sympathy as I have for the parent, I can't help but feel that they are dumping a lot of baggage onto their child

Now this is interesting.

You're a gay man, so obviously you are part of a minority whose activities, throughout the centuries, have been vilified as being contrary to natural law. Eventually, human civilisation progressed to the point where the argument has been broadly won, that gender-based presuppositions are a vain and irrational attempt to classify individuals.

So I'm curious, what exactly is the "baggage" you fear has been dumped on this child, growing up in a home where they are liberated from exactly the same presuppositions which criminalised and tormented gay men for so long?

Can you please spell-out for me what exactly the harm is, in raising children never to be constrained by gender 'roles'?

Frank O. Pinion

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

On the subject of things I recently found out bisexual is now called pansexual.

Things be crazy.

No, it's not.

LLMMLL

Noveight wrote: »

It's one of the most fundamental parameters by which someone can be identified. It's completely relevant on a birth certificate.

In what way do they need to be identified? What do you think birth certs are for?

LLMMLL

jackofalltrades wrote: »

There's a special place in hell for posters who upside down quote.
Seriously Gizmo81 your posts are nightmare to read.

This all seems to be based about the sex recorded on official documents.
Since very few official documents record gender.
The argument seem to be we should give parents the ability to stop recording this, based on an absolutely tiny minority who could be discommoded in later life.
If we stop recording the sex of babies, how will we keep a track of this vital statistic.
What if there is a sudden change and we have no statistics to show.
This is a dangerous case of ideals above practicality.

A sudden change in the constant for millions of years near 50/50-ness of male/female births? LOL

cgcsb

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Now this is interesting.

You're a gay man, so obviously you are part of a minority whose activities, throughout the centuries, have been vilified as being contrary to natural law. Eventually, human civilisation progressed to the point where the argument has been broadly won, that gender-based presuppositions are a vain and irrational attempt to classify individuals.

So I'm curious, what exactly is the "baggage" you fear has been dumped on this child, growing up in a home where they are liberated from exactly the same presuppositions which criminalised and tormented gay men for so long?

Can you please spell-out for me what exactly the harm is, in raising children never to be constrained by gender 'roles'?

The baggage being that all the other kids have a gender and a certain role laid out for them and this individual does not at behest of their parent. Invariably the child will experience otherness despite the fact that there's a 99.9% chance they will not be 'other' in the gender stakes. It is now possible to relax that gender role a lot, while still acknowledging that the child is a boy or girl, I think that is a better model giving the child freedom to explore their own identity without forcing them into the realm of oddness from day 1.

You are correct I was bestowed with similar baggage as a child, as a 7 year old I was full on, flush faced, in love with my best pal who I used to rough-house with. It seemed that society took every opportunity to tell me how gross I was and I mustn't verbalise how I felt because it was simply too taboo. That was unfortunate for me, but the key difference here is my parents didn't put that baggage on me to placate their world view, wider society put that on me out of swivel-eyed ignorance.

Gay people are not free from supposition btw. I'm often asked about my wife, for example. The introduction of the subject of my boyfriend and possible future husband raises eyebrows. I expect it'll always be this way. It doesn't bother me to be honest because very few men have husbands.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I vividly remember going through a phase at around 5 or 6 where I wanted to play with girls toys, I wanted dolls and a cooker for Christmas. My poor parents must have been crippled with worry but they went along with it. Then the phase passed after a couple of months.

Talking to people down through the years I realised I wasn't the only male child who went through such a phase.

What worries we is kids who experience something like this in the modern day. If I had been born 20 years later would my parents have been encouraged to send me to school in a dress a start me on hormone treatment?

Sleepy

If anyone cares to find it, there was a great post on reddit from a guy raised like this in the US in the 80's. He eventually got taken into care and after a few years of boucing around the foster care system was finally adopted by a family who gave him a real home.

He ended up in a heterosexual marriage and had kids of his own but held onto a deap-seated hatred for his mother and believed she had robbed him of his boyhood...

Now, maybe this child won't experience that. Hopefully he/she won't but the parent's choice is idiotic imo and the Canadian government are worse for catering to his/her snowflakery in allowing an invalid entry on the child's passport.

osarusan

Sleepy wrote: »

Now, maybe this child won't experience that. Hopefully he/she won't but the parent's choice is idiotic imo and the Canadian government are worse for catering to his/her snowflakery in allowing an invalid entry on the child's passport.

There's no reason to believe they issued a passport.

In fact, the Canadian government are refusing to issue a birth cert:

In the case of Searyl Atli, the parent said that the authorities have refused to issue the birth certificate without a gender designation and so the parent has applied for a judicial review of the case.

They have issued a health card - I would imagine they did this as the case/review might take months and the child needs something right now to record doctor's visits/ vaccinations etc.

Nermal

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

You're a gay man, so obviously you are part of a minority whose activities, throughout the centuries, have been vilified as being contrary to natural law. Eventually, human civilisation progressed to the point where the argument has been broadly won, that gender-based presuppositions are a vain and irrational attempt to classify individuals.

Embarrassing twaddle. Your own bloody screen name references a civilisation where homosexuality was not seen as contrary to natural law.

We didn't 'progress' from them either, we are not 'better' at morality than our ancestors.

SterlingArcher

gizmo81 wrote: »

This is happening right now and has for sometime.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/ireland-s-transgender-children-1.2171777

That article only proves how blind compassion can be. And how dangerous.

cgcsb

Nermal wrote: »

We didn't 'progress' from them either, we are not 'better' at morality than our ancestors.

Yeah we are better morally than our ancestors. Only a generation ago we were forcing young girls, in their tens of thousands, into state sponsored, church run forced labour camps because we thought they were sluts and therefore worthless.

Ipso

At least the Canadian government can provide good psychiatric help in the future.
text book example of attention seeker trying to live out their own ideology through a child.

cgcsb

cgcsb wrote: »

The baggage being that all the other kids have a gender and a certain role laid out for them and this individual does not at behest of their parent.

Can you read that back to yourself, and think about what you are saying?

You're effectively saying that it is harmful to allow a child to grow up without feeling the constraint of a predetermined identity.

Now, as a gay man, you are as entitled as anybody else to say such a thing. I just find it surprising.

I have a lot of friends who are gay men, and what I tend to like about them is that they have grown up out-of-sync with the predetermined pathways that society has tended to self-impose. Some of them are damaged and angry because of those constraints, but the vast majority, in my experience, are full of empathy for those who suffer from gender-based biases. That's probably why there are so many gay men who get behind the Repeal movement, for example. And that's why gay men seem to be particularly vocal in respect of transgender rights.

For these reasons, it is surprising to me to hear a gay man espousing the need for imposing predetermined gender roles on a child.

Nermal wrote: »

Your own bloody screen name references a civilisation where homosexuality was not seen as contrary to natural law.

Actually, it's a reference to Byron's poem The Isles of Greece. Miltiades was 'freedom's best and bravest friend', a democratic tyrant.

I'm not sure why I just explained that, because it's comical that you are using my username to make some clunky point about homosexuality in Ancient Athens. As you may not know, homosexuality (as we know it) invited social stigma; it was pederasty that was socially acceptable, with some rules attached.

Hector Bellend

I use to worry about young kids becoming criminals, addicts or having other life problems when they grew up.

Now they'll have to face added difficulties like these that they have no input into.

cgcsb

If you ask people as adults I would pretty much say just about everyone, with the exception of transgendered people, would NOT have liked to be brought up as 'genderless'. I know I certainly wouldn't have liked it. I view my maleness as an integral part of me, its the basis of my confidence and it frames my interpersonal relationships. I'm sure its the same for the ladies. Had my parents but a skort on me and started calling me an it. That'd undermine all that, and I'd feel more like a neutered lab rat.

Pac1Man

Terribly narcissistic of the parent. This is what safe spaces produces.

Hector Bellend

There's no way you can argue that a child is born "genderless". It's physically impossible.

I dont understand how this could be entertained.

cgcsb

cgcsb wrote: »

If you ask people as adults I would pretty much say just about everyone, with the exception of transgendered people, would NOT have liked to be brought up as 'genderless'.

But this child isn't being brought up 'genderless'. The child can flip and flop between genders as much as they like, or stick as much as they like to being a male or a female forever.

I see no reason to believe that the parent will insist that a child who wants to wear dresses will be forced, on alternate days, to wear trousers. It's simply that the child will be calling the shots on who they want to be.