Canadian parent raising child as gender-neutral.

gizmo81

This is happening right now and has for sometime.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/ireland-s-transgender-children-1.2171777

SterlingArcher wrote: »

Is that a rabbit hole you would go down?

Ok so now the child gets to decide what path it takes to its gender expression. Goody goody. When the child is 13-15 and full of this knowledge of you have bestowed upon it. The child tells you it does not fit their biological body and wants to be a male or female. it wants an operation to correct that. How do you proceed gizmo81? I mean you did say a child gets to choose right?

mzungu

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm not sure if you ever look around you, or read the statistics on gender inequality; but yes, gender constraints do exist, especially when it comes to incomes and family obligations.

And by gender strait-jackets, I'm talking about people imposing gender-based rules upon their children or their pupils ... most five-year-olds have learned that dolls are for girls and tractors are for boys. Thankfully, this trend is now diminishing, and cases like that stated in the OP are at the vanguard of that trend.

That's not down to social conditioning or "gender strait-jackets". For example, research has shown that male monkeys preferred playing with traditionally masculine toys like trucks and diggers while female moneys went for both dolls and wheeled toys. Not much different to what one would observe among humans. Raising the child as gender neutral won't circumvent its biological instincts.

Pero_Bueno

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Before anyone attacks OP. I'm in no way homophobic or transphobic or any kind of phobic. You can self identify as an attack helicopter for all I care, but when you start pushing you're thing onto other people, expecting people to call you by your correct pronoun of "THEY" ****ing they, well then that's a different matter, and when you start pushing it onto kids, well fück you.

Yep these idiots don't see that they are just as bad (worse in fact) than parents that want their little Johnny ultra macho or little Susie ultra girly ..by pushing stereotypical boy/girl toys on them.

Will I Am Not

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

So he/she should raise their kids to be bad, narrow-minded and insensitive people who compromise themselves in order to be liked?

Yes. That's exactly what I said :rolleyes:

Yourself isit

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I was yeah.

I know why I have problems with bestiality, it churns my stomach. But my gastric fragility is hardly a reason to ban something.

Why are you digging that up here? Do you have no logical point to advance, or is that thread somehow relevant here?


Grand. Lets assume you're correct: what's the problem here, so?

There's a bit of hysteria about this particular decision. After all the child can amend the birth cert later on.

In general though the gender is a fluid construct is an anti scientific doctrine. A religious belief. It uniques humans. No scientist has traditionally thought that gender is constructed in other sexual dimorphic species. Or that in such species (of which homo sapiens is one) there are not evolutionary reasons for sexual differences. Or that these sexual differences have no behavioural effects.

Pero_Bueno

Xir, Xirs, Xirself ....

iguana

SterlingArcher wrote: »

Is that a rabbit hole you would go down?

Ok so now the child gets to decide what path it takes. Goody goody. When the child is 13-15 and full of this knowledge of you have bestowed upon it. The child tells you it does not fit their biological body and wants to be a male or female. it wants an operation to correct that. How do you proceed gizmo81? I mean you did say a child gets to choose right?

I think raising a child with at least some degree of gender neutrality might actually lessen the chances of that happening. I've read quite a bit of writing from post-transgender young adults, people who went through the sex change process as a teen and later regretted it and have changed back as much as they could. And a common feature in their experience was a childhood of being expected to like gendered toys, clothes and activities. And when a little girl was told that the thing she really, really liked was for boys so she couldn't have it, she started saying she wished she was a boy and and so was started down a medical and surgical path she would never have been on if she had just been allowed to box/play football/have short hair in the first place. About half of the stories I've read from parents of trans-children have the parents knowing their boy was really a girl because he liked the pink ball best when he was a baby and as a toddler carried a baby doll everywhere. Allowing a child to just like whatever the fúck they like seems to me like it would lead to less children growing up wishing they were the opposite sex.

gizmo81

Do you honestly believe this stands up?

Wallen’s team offered the monkeys two categories of toys: “wheeled” and “plush”. The wheeled toys, intended to be masculine, included wagons and vehicles. The more feminine plush toys included Winnie the Pooh and Raggedy-Ann dolls.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/

Dig deeper and the actual research states it's probably to do with the properties of the toys.

For example, a toy such as a plastic shopping cart, one of our wheeled toys, might appeal to boys or rhesus monkey males for its physical properties,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

mzungu wrote: »

That's not down to social conditioning or "gender strait-jackets". For example, research has shown that male monkeys preferred playing with traditionally masculine toys like trucks and diggers while female moneys went for both dolls and wheeled toys. Not much different to what one would observe among humans. Raising the child as gender neutral won't circumvent its biological instincts.

Arcade_Tryer

Gender is a social construct.

Sex is a scientific result.

What is the major problem? Seems the people with the biggest issue about this are those objecting to other people's choices concerning choosing or determining their own gender. Sad!

Professor Moriarty

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

Yes. That's exactly what I said :rolleyes:

Thought so.

When he said:

You raise your kids to be good, open-minded, compassionate people; not to be 'popular'.

You said:

Anyone can be bullied but you may as well stick a sandwich board with 'bully me' written on it as do this.

So the only logical conclusion that can be inferred is that you believe he/she should raise their kids to be bad, narrow-minded and insensitive people who compromise themselves in order to be liked. Or else they'll be bullied.

gizmo81

Intersex is a mental illness?

marsbandit wrote: »

Male and female. Anything else is mental illness.

Yourself isit

iguana wrote: »

I think raising a child with at least some degree of gender neutrality might actually lessen the chances of that happening. I've read quite a bit of writing from post-transgender young adults, people who went through the sex change process as a teen and later regretted it and have changed back as much as they could. And a common feature in their experience was a childhood of being expected to like gendered toys, clothes and activities. And when a little girl was told that the thing she really, really liked was for boys so she couldn't have it, she started saying she wished she was a boy and and so was started down a medical and surgical path she would never have been on if she had just been allowed to box/play football/have short hair in the first place. About half of the stories I've read from parents of trans-children have the parents knowing their boy was really a girl because he liked the pink ball best when he was a baby and as a toddler carried a baby doll everywhere. Allowing a child to just like whatever the fúck they like seems to me like it would lead to less children growing up wishing they were the opposite sex.

True. We've always had tom boys, and girls surrounded by male siblings would often try to join in. If disallowed they would "wish" they were boys.

This wasn't and isn't an expression of transgenderism.

Another thing that kids do is wish they were the sex of the new child – because that child is getting all the attention and they associate it with the gender of the new baby (if different).

That also isn't transgenderism.

That said - a U on a birth cert isn't much harm. It's pre adult surgery that bugs me.

Will I Am Not

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Thought so.

When he said:

You raise your kids to be good, open-minded, compassionate people; not to be 'popular'.

You said:

Anyone can be bullied but you may as well stick a sandwich board with 'bully me' written on it as do this.

So the only logical conclusion that can be inferred is that you believe he/she should raise their kids to be bad, narrow-minded and insensitive people who compromise themselves in order to be liked. Or else they'll be bullied.

So you get that I'm saying the literal, exact opposite of everything they said in every line of their post from that?
Jesus... what a dumb way to debate.

Arcade_Tryer

Yourself isit wrote: »

True. We've always had tom boys, and girls surrounded by male siblings would often try to join in. If disallowed they would "wish" they were boys.

This wasn't and isn't an expression of transgenderism.

.

That's a really good point, and especially relevant in Catholic and Muslim societies. Society and culture plays a huge role in this.

Yourself isit

gizmo81 wrote: »

Do you honestly believe this stands up?

Wallen’s team offered the monkeys two categories of toys: “wheeled” and “plush”. The wheeled toys, intended to be masculine, included wagons and vehicles. The more feminine plush toys included Winnie the Pooh and Raggedy-Ann dolls.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/

Dig deeper and the actual research states it's probably to do with the properties of the toys.

For example, a toy such as a plastic shopping cart, one of our wheeled toys, might appeal to boys or rhesus monkey males for its physical properties,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

Why would the physical properties appeal to male monkeys? Who constructed that?

Samaris

Mod: Closing temporarily for review and troll rebridging.

Samaris

Mod: Re-opening this thread as there's discussion to be had around the article still.

bubbles o hara
marsbandit
Ballstein
mickoleary

-don't post in this thread again. If the thread spirals into snipery and personal attacks again it will be closed.

LadyMacBeth_

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm not picking on your post in particular, but it's fairly representative of a lot of the narrative here: I don't have a problem with transgender people, but for God's sake assign this child the a gender associated with their sex, or else you're damaging them.

That position appears to assume there is something harmful about not being raised in a particular gender.

Why should that be harmful? It seems just as spurious, to my mind, as the argument that every child needs a male and a female parent.

I wouldn't be surprised if children who are raised without gender constraints actually end up happier, more well-rounded, and more open-minded as individuals, without feeling any of the gender constraints that most of us (male or female, but especially female) have felt at some stage.

I don't see any evidence of harm. I do see a great positive potential here. No child should be reared in a gender strait-jacket in this day and age.

Most people are cisgender, so to assume that the child is cisgender is pretty likely. If the child turns out to be trans then the matter can be addressed then. As for raising the child gender neutral, I don't believe this is necessary, by all means let the child play with whatever toys he/she wants to play with and if he/she wants to wear a dress then let him/her, some little boys want to wear a dress because their older sister has one, not because they are trans and there is no need to deny their gender either. Let them be kids and let them defy gender roles if they wish, not deny them entirely.

Ficheall

We should probably remove a baby's weight from the birth cert, too - it might change that later on, and it wouldn't do to be labelled fat from the get-go...

Omackeral

Ficheall wrote: »

We should probably remove a baby's weight from the birth cert, too - it might change that later on, and it wouldn't do to be labelled fat from the get-go...

My god I love the little fat rolls babies have on their wrists and on their cankles.

cgcsb

judeboy101 wrote: »

You can scientifically test that, you can't test for gender therefore its not real.

You can't test for CJD either but I'd say it'd feel pretty god damn real to you. :rolleyes: Honestly, that's some silly statement

soups05

gizmo81 wrote: »

Knowledge Base!!! Correct.

But if some of you want to measure d1cks be warned

One study analysing the self-reported Kinsey data set found that the average penis of a homosexual man was larger than the average penis of their heterosexual counterparts

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10410197

oh crap, does that mean i have to be gay now? the wife won't be happy about that i can tell ya. not to mention that i don't fancy blokes at all. I got nothing against gays but its not for me, i heard its a pain in the .....aw never mind.

RobbingBandit

The person gave birth to this child if they themselves now identify as gender fluid/neutral and wish to offer their child the same opportunity who are we society as a whole to deny them that right or privilege.

mzungu

gizmo81 wrote: »

Do you honestly believe this stands up?

Ah c'mon now, I could ask you the same question about treating Adrienne Rich's opinion as fact.

gizmo81 wrote: »

Wallen’s team offered the monkeys two categories of toys: “wheeled” and “plush”. The wheeled toys, intended to be masculine, included wagons and vehicles. The more feminine plush toys included Winnie the Pooh and Raggedy-Ann dolls.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/

Dig deeper and the actual research states it's probably to do with the properties of the toys.

For example, a toy such as a plastic shopping cart, one of our wheeled toys, might appeal to boys or rhesus monkey males for its physical properties,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

There are still innate biological differences, raising the child as genderless won't be able to circumvent biology. Besides, roughly the same result was found with children in a study from Todd, Barry and Thommessen (2016. Preferences for ‘Gender-typed’ Toys in Boys and Girls Aged 9 to 32 Months. Infant and Child Development) who found that significant sex differences were evident at an earlier age than when gendered identity is usually demonstrated. The boys in the study choose the toys that were specific to their own gender, as did the girls. Both boys and girls with age showed an increasing preference for boys toys. There was no social conditioning at play and they still made the choice.

Whether the child is raised genderless or not, chances are that they will still go for toys that fit their gender stereotype.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

RobbingBandit wrote: »

The person gave birth to this child if they themselves now identify as gender fluid/neutral and wish to offer their child the same opportunity who are we society as a whole to deny them that right or privilege.

Because the child's mother, yes that's mother not "they" as she wants to be known (biology...) as clearly has a twisted addenda along with being mentally ill and now she's forcing her mental illness on her child.

Irish Guitarist

They's a moron.

cgcsb

It's an interesting subject. I can't help but feel that the parent in question is doing this because s/he probably had a pretty difficult time being themselves as a child, perhaps s/he was pushed into some pretty extreme gender roles by parents (e.g. forcing girls into beauty patents and dissuading them from education is not unheard of in that part of the world). If that's the case it must have been awful and I can somewhat identify with that as a gay man who, as a child, had my head filled with Disney bu11**** in which male role models only function was to rescue the princess and talk her into marrying you. Obviously being trans is a much larger cross to bear especially if your parents dissuade you from being yourself. As much sympathy as I have for the parent, I can't help but feel that they are dumping a lot of baggage onto their child, after all 99.9999999% of the population are CIS-gendered so I don't see the harm in raising them as their birth sex while also not forcing them into any roles they don't want to be in.

gizmo81

And you understand the limitations of that study?

http://www.pitt.edu/~bertsch/Todd_et_al-2016-Infant_and_Child_Development.pdf

-Peer presence may have decreased the likelihood of play with other-gender- typed toys
-Potential effects of observers is chal- lenging;
-The effect of parent,
-Other adult or peer presence is likely to vary by age and sex of the participant,
-By sex and role of observer and
-By wider cultural context.
-In future studies, the relationship between young infants’ preferences and the beliefs and behaviour of their parents could be explored.

-However, it is possible that preferences relate to previous positive experiences of play with similar gender-typed toys selected by caregivers

-The results suggest both biological and developmental–environmental com- ponents to sex differences in object preferences.

It's impossible to know what role environmental factors had in play with the children.

mzungu wrote: »

Ah c'mon now, I could ask you the same question about treating Adrienne Rich's opinion as fact.


There are still innate biological differences, raising the child as genderless won't be able to circumvent biology. Besides, roughly the same result was found with children in a study from Todd, Barry and Thommessen (2016. Preferences for ‘Gender-typed’ Toys in Boys and Girls Aged 9 to 32 Months. Infant and Child Development) who found that significant sex differences were evident at an earlier age than when gendered identity is usually demonstrated. The boys in the study choose the toys that were specific to their own gender, as did the girls. Both boys and girls with age showed an increasing preference for boys toys. There was no social conditioning at play and they still made the choice.

Whether the child is raised genderless or not, chances are that they will still go for toys that fit their gender stereotype.

hatrickpatrick

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Gender is a social construct.

Sex is a scientific result.

What is the major problem? Seems the people with the biggest issue about this are those objecting to other people's choices concerning choosing or determining their own gender. Sad!

What is "gender" then, if not merely a set of roles to conform to?

So if we abolish the roles and regard gender and sex as one and the same, in other words mere physical characteristics, isn't that a better solution than introducing all of this bizarre and counter intuitive crap?

Here's an example:



Like... As a straight person what exactly are you supposed to say in response to this kind of stuff? I wouldn't touch another person's weiner if you paid me, but if the definition of "straight" can include having sex with people who are biologically the same sex as you, then what is the word for somebody who is only attracted to the same biological sex, without necessarily caring about "gender identity"?

It's very peculiar. Transsexual is intuitive - one who feels they were born in the wrong body and would like to swap. Nothing contradictory about that. Somebody who identifies as a woman and yet is happy to have a male body - what exactly are they saying, then? That they don't want to conform to male gender roles? That's perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned! But get rid of the roles themselves rather than trying to rewrite the entire English language to get around them, thus introducing ridiculous paradoxes along the way.

Again, those who do so come across as attention seeking - particularly when you get into the new new stuff like pan sexual, gender fluid, etc. It's rapidly becoming a meme among far right types to use the abbreviation "LGBTADSDFGHHKL;-/:(" or "LGBTOMGWTFBBQ" - and can you really blame them? The fact that people are being accused of being horrible people just because they don't approve of the "look at me, I'm special and unique" types who are undoubtedly driving a lot of the overly convoluted new concepts in all of this is ridiculous.

Hammer89

If I had to guess I'd say the mother derives from First Nations' people in Canada and a lot of them have FIVE genders in their culture - female, male, male body female spirit, female body male spirit, and transgender.

Edit - I've just Googled the mother and she has a better beard than me. Refusing to give the baby a gender is definitely an Indian thing.

I spent time with a bunch of them in Canada and although they're nice, friendly and harmless people, they're a bit odd. This one day we're driving around looking for willow trees to build a sweat lodge with, and we find them, but we can't snip them out of the ground without rubbing rolling tobacco on them first, as a way to say thanks.