Dublin GAA Discussion Thread - Capital Punishment

OldMrBrennan83

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think Tyrone are set up better than Mayo are.
Tyrone or Kerry for me.
Mayo will do the normal Mayo thing and fold.

gormdubhgorm

Bonniedog wrote: »

I reckon that's a bit unfair.

Mayo have been in finals and semi finals with Dublin til the last kick. Kerry have blinked, collapsed even.

Tyrone last year was only final Dublin won that was over by half time. Even Harte said they were playing the second half to keep it respectable!

Can't see that changing to be honest.

I do think Dublin are vulnerable however, and most likely teams to beat them are Mayo and Kerry in that order.

It is the pressure on those Mayo lads that kills them stops them from playing.
I think Tyrone (changed style a bit) and have improved, they surprised me in the league match against Dublin. Dublin were doing/let do none of their usual stuff only shooting from the D.
Ideally I would like to see Tyrone and Mayo draw each other this year if possible.
The simple high ball into the FB line is the thing Dublin should be worried about. Hopefully Jim will sort it out in training sessions.

robbiezero

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is the pressure on those Mayo lads that kills them stops them from playing.
I think Tyrone (changed style a bit) and have improved, they surprised me in the league match against Dublin. Dublin were doing/let do none of their usual stuff only shooting from the D.
Ideally I would like to see Tyrone and Mayo draw each other this year if possible.
The simple high ball into the FB line is the thing Dublin should be worried about. Hopefully Jim will sort it out in training sessions.

I don't understand this comment. Mayo have outplayed their odds every time they have met Dublin this decade in the championship ( *most games anyway). They have probably played their best football against them.
Dublin are probably the greatest team of all time. Running them as close as Mayo have a few times is not a team collapsing under pressure.

Jury is firmly out on Tyrone for me, they have a lot of ground to make up on their performance last year in order to even be competitive with Dublin and in my opinion they just wont be good enough no matter what new style of football they bring to the table.

D9Male

Yeah, Mayo raise their game against the best, and come out on top in close championship games more often than not.

Admiration from me.

gormdubhgorm

robbiezero wrote: »

I don't understand this comment. Mayo have outplayed their odds every time they have met Dublin this decade in the championship ( *most games anyway). They have probably played their best football against them.
Dublin are probably the greatest team of all time. Running them as close as Mayo have a few times is not a team collapsing under pressure.

Jury is firmly out on Tyrone for me, they have a lot of ground to make up on their performance last year in order to even be competitive with Dublin and in my opinion they just wont be good enough no matter what new style of football they bring to the table.

Yeah but the point is Mayo blew it each time - even looking at recent ones.

2012 stupid tactics leaving Murphy isolated one on one bang game over in a few minutes
2013 O'Connor wasted his own time on his own free
2016 Mayo shot themselves in the foot with OG's and changing keeper for some mad reason
2017 Dublin controlled the game despite the narrow win.

If Mayo even get close to winning it at this stage they will crack, and throw it away too many mental scars.
That is only one out of the last four I feel they were never going to win.
The other three was in large part/partly thier own fault imo.

robbiezero

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah but the point is Mayo blew it each time - even looking at recent ones.

2012 stupid tactics leaving Murphy isolated one on one bang game over in a few minutes
2013 O'Connor wasted his own time on his own free
2016 Mayo shot themselves in the foot with OG's and changing keeper for some mad reason
2017 Dublin controlled the game despite the narrow win.

If Mayo even get close to winning it at this stage they will crack, and throw it away too many mental scars.
That is only one out of the last four I feel they were never going to win.
The other three was in large part/partly thier own fault imo.

Wouldn't agree that Dublin controlled it in 2017, Vaughans sending off possibly cost them the game so I guess you could make it 4 that they probably shot themselves in the foot with. Also they really should have put Kerry away in 2015 in that semi-final. That year might have been their best chance of winning the All-Ireland.
I kind of agree with you that they do have a knack of shooting themselves in the foot in these massive games, but I also agree with myself that they tend to play their best football in these big games e.g. 2017 they managed to draw with Derry, Cork and Roscommon and still push Dublin all the way, only losing in injury time.

Bonniedog

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah but the point is Mayo blew it each time - even looking at recent ones.

2012 stupid tactics leaving Murphy isolated one on one bang game over in a few minutes
2013 O'Connor wasted his own time on his own free
2016 Mayo shot themselves in the foot with OG's and changing keeper for some mad reason
2017 Dublin controlled the game despite the narrow win.

If Mayo even get close to winning it at this stage they will crack, and throw it away too many mental scars.
That is only one out of the last four I feel they were never going to win.
The other three was in large part/partly thier own fault imo.

On such things do games swing, but they are only remembered in retrospect when people can pick on one or two incidents out of hundreds as the reason a game turned!

Dublin might well have lost one final over Connolly grabbing the ball from Kilkenny - who would have recycled it and run the clock down - and went for a low % shot that led to the replay.

Only mention that as was watching it earlier. Not trying to blame DC on anything. These things happen.

PARlance

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah but the point is Mayo blew it each time - even looking at recent ones.

2012 stupid tactics leaving Murphy isolated one on one bang game over in a few minutes
2013 O'Connor wasted his own time on his own free
2016 Mayo shot themselves in the foot with OG's and changing keeper for some mad reason
2017 Dublin controlled the game despite the narrow win.

If Mayo even get close to winning it at this stage they will crack, and throw it away too many mental scars.
That is only one out of the last four I feel they were never going to win.
The other three was in large part/partly thier own fault imo.

Ah here, will you give it a rest and let us off for a week or so. Talking about 2016 & 2017 as years we left it behind isn't even worthy of barstool analysis. We could have won but it would have been some upset.

You missed the year we really blew it btw and it wasn't in a final.

We didn't blow it yesterday and any begrudgers can blow....

(Credit is due for not using "bottled", in fairness)

Bonniedog

The depiction of sports people - or any people in any walk of life for that matter - who just fall short at the highest level as "losers2 and "chokers" really irritates me.

Said it before and I'll say it again: the only real losers and chokers are those who can't be bothered trying because they have themselves beaten before they even start. such people are often the first to slag off those who lose big events.

I don't particularly like Mayo, but one thing you certainly cannot fault them for is their resilience. An admirable characteristic in any person or collection of persons.

PARlance

I don't particularly like Bonniedog, but I like that post.

corny

robbiezero wrote: »

I don't understand this comment. Mayo have outplayed their odds every time they have met Dublin this decade in the championship ( *most games anyway). They have probably played their best football against them.
Dublin are probably the greatest team of all time. Running them as close as Mayo have a few times is not a team collapsing under pressure.

Jury is firmly out on Tyrone for me, they have a lot of ground to make up on their performance last year in order to even be competitive with Dublin and in my opinion they just wont be good enough no matter what new style of football they bring to the table.

Can't remember which game exactly it was but i saw an interview with AOS where he pointed out that in terms of the key metrics Mayo had outperformed themselves to a ridiculous degree (good enough to win every other final in his estimation). The only problem for Mayo was Dublin did that and more on the day. He didn't have any regrets anyway.

Hearing a bit about Tyrone and their new style of play but i'm not buying it. They have tried all out defending and they've tried hassling high up the pitch and they lost decisively each time. Didn't see anything in the league game to suggest they now have the answer. All i saw was unforced errors and poor interplay from Dublin. All controllable for them. Tyrone have a good chance against everyone else mind.

PressRun

corny wrote: »

Can't remember which game exactly it was but i saw an interview with AOS where he pointed out that in terms of the key metrics Mayo had outperformed themselves to a ridiculous degree (good enough to win every other final in his estimation). The only problem for Mayo was Dublin did that and more on the day. He didn't have any regrets anyway.

This is the thing, when it comes to championship encounters with Dublin, I think Mayo tend to up their game. The problem is, Dublin also tend to up their game for those encounters too and have always had the squad to finish out the games strongly. I still think the 2017 final was the best we ever played in a final, but it was also a great performance from Dublin. I believe on the strength of that performance, we probably would have beaten any other team, and indeed many of our performances against Dublin down through the years in championship probably would have been enough to beat any other team.

I said in the league thread that Galway would get eaten alive in any of the Mayo/Dublin encounters from the last few years. I stand by that and I believe the same could be said for Tyrone. Unless something has drastically changed in Tyrone, I don't see how they have the weapons to really trouble Dublin in the latter stages of championship. They might be able to give them a rattle in the league, which we all know is played at a different tempo, but it's a totally different story come championship. I still feel like the running game is the only way thing that can push the Dubs, and the likes of Tyrone don't have the physicality to play that high intensity game over 70 minutes. I also don't think it's in Mickey Harte's DNA to play that way. But I think we know for sure at this stage that a blanket is not going to beat Dublin.

MayoAreMagic

Bonniedog wrote: »

On such things do games swing, but they are only remembered in retrospect when people can pick on one or two incidents out of hundreds as the reason a game turned!

Dublin might well have lost one final over Connolly grabbing the ball from Kilkenny - who would have recycled it and run the clock down - and went for a low % shot that led to the replay.

Only mention that as was watching it earlier. Not trying to blame DC on anything. These things happen.

Agreed. History is generally written by the winners. For example, if you look at some of gavins decisions in finals against ourselves, he has actually made a few calls that havent worked at all.
In 13 he started a very young mannion and mccaffrey despite a noticeable drop off in form in their previous games. He ended up having to take them both off. But for a shot for a point dropping short and hennelly making a mistake in coming for it, gavins decision could have come under scrutiny there.
Similarly, not starting connolly in 17, and starting ogara who was totally ineffectual, would have undoubtedly caught flak but for vaughan losing the rag in that crazy incident.
But they happened to win and it was vaughan and hennelly who got the scrutiny, whereas gavin is generally viewed as almost infallable.

That isnt to discredit gavin either, he was quick enough to make the changes required etc, but the point is, as regards hindsight, those decisions are most probably an issue but for those two incidents which were totally beyond his control. Whereas now they are not even on the radar.

In reality, all managers make calls, most generally have a positive effect but some dont work out. If your team happens to lose on the day it doesnt work out, you are for it. If they win, it is generally not even noticed.

ToBeFrank123

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I was not at the game. But from the telly it seemed like a very loose/open game.
If the Dubs meet either Kerry or Mayo this summer they would destroy them in an open game 'trading punches'.

I still think Mayo are overrated and will bottle it in the heat of battle when there is real pressure on them, Unless they find some individual brilliance against the run of play like Dublin did in 2011. I just cannot see Mayo getting over the line way too much baggage and pressure on them.
Kerry are a team that still worry me cocky former minors heritage etc.

If I were to pick any team to play Dublin in an AI final it would be Mayo easily, because they would be under way more pressure than Dublin would be on the day.

The only one who will be feeling the heat and in the crosshairs of absolutely everyone this year are Dublin.

Mayo have national silverware already and are in a transitional phase between the older guys and the new young guns who made a huge impression in the League and who thankfully are not burdened with past issues. These guys have won the first national title they have competed in!

Tyrone will be gunning for Dublin.

Kerry will especially, they don't want their 4 in a row record beaten.

Donegal are improving.

I don't think Monaghan or Galway have what it takes just yet but stranger things have happened. But these counties don't expect to win an AI yet and there's on pressure on them.

The pressure is almost entirely on Dublin this year. Lets hope they don't bottle it! I will be the first to applaud them if they don't.

Gael85

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The only one who will be feeling the heat and in the crosshairs of absolutely everyone this year are Dublin.

Mayo have national silverware already and are in a transitional phase between the older guys and the new young guns who made a huge impression in the League and who thankfully are not burdened with past issues. These guys have won the first national title they have competed in!

Tyrone will be gunning for Dublin.

Kerry will especially, they don't want their 4 in a row record beaten.

Donegal are improving.

I don't think Monaghan or Galway have what it takes just yet but stranger things have happened. But these counties don't expect to win an AI yet and there's on pressure on them.

The pressure is almost entirely on Dublin this year. Lets hope they don't bottle it! I will be the first to applaud them if they don't.

If Dublin are beaten if will because the opposition were better than them. Nothing to do with bottle, this group of Dublin players have won many a tight game in the heat of the battle whether it a National league game or All Ireland final.

Stoner

PARlance wrote:

I don't particularly like Bonniedog, but I like that post.

Don't tell him PARlance, it'll break his heart!!

MayoAreMagic

Gael85 wrote: »

If Dublin are beaten if will because the opposition were better than them. Nothing to do with bottle, this group of Dublin players have won many a tight game in the heat of the battle whether it a National league game or All Ireland final.

Well, the issue with that is that there is no team better than them and this has been shown definitively over the past few years. So if dublin are to lose, it kinda has to be of their own volition to a certain extent.

Gael85

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well, the issue with that is that there is no team better than them and this has been shown definitively over the past few years. So if dublin are to lose, it kinda has to be of their own volition to a certain extent.

If Dublin are to lose it because they weren't good enough to win on the day. Anyway we haven't got to any final yet. Will worry about winners of Louth/Wexford first and see what happens after that.

MayoAreMagic

Gael85 wrote: »

If Dublin are to lose it because they weren't good enough to win on the day. Anyway we haven't got to any final yet. Will worry about winners of Louth/Wexford first and see what happens after that.

True. But if you are head and shoulders the best team around and you arent good enough to win on the day, surely that requires some explaining?

In fairness if they do win this year, I dont believe you will be saying they they were just the better team on the day. You will most likely be saying they are the best team of all time etc, so you cant have it every way...

Gael85

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

True. But if you are head and shoulders the best team around and you arent good enough to win on the day, surely that requires some explaining?

In fairness if they do win this year, I dont believe you will be saying they they were just the better team on the day. You will most likely be saying they are the best team of all time etc, so you cant have it every way...

If we come out of Leinster we can chat about it later in the year..

MayoAreMagic

Gael85 wrote: »

If we come out of Leinster we can chat about it later in the year..

And if they dont?
Just lost on the day again?

ShyMets

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

And if they dont?
Just lost on the day again?

PEOPLE! Please step away from the Troll and discontinue feeding.

Gael85

Anyway getting back to Dublin. Was out at St Vincents v Olivier Plunketts on Sunday and interesting to see Diarmuid Connolly playing at centre half back. Didn't look out of place and got on a lot of ball. Good to see him back playing.

Nidgeweasel

Gael85 wrote: »

If we come out of Leinster we can chat about it later in the year..

Squareball

I firmly believe that Dublin will struggle this year, I don’t think Leinster will be the cakewalk everyone says it will be. After that anything can happen, we are not the same animal we were the last couple of years. Our bench does not offer the strength it used to. Jim Gavin is showing loyalty to Brogan, Flynn and McManamon and while I admire the loyalty, he would have been more ruthless in times gone by. Some of the current panel have been at it for a long time now and I’m not sure the younger lads are ready to carry flag. There also appears to be niggling injuries that are worryingly not clearing up.
Having said all that, watch them surprise me and go out and win the whole thing again and confirm what most of us already know, that they are the greatest team of all time!!!!!

Gael85

Squareball wrote: »

I firmly believe that Dublin will struggle this year, I don’t think Leinster will be the cakewalk everyone says it will be. After that anything can happen, we are not the same animal we were the last couple of years. Our bench does not offer the strength it used to. Jim Gavin is showing loyalty to Brogan, Flynn and McManamon and while I admire the loyalty, he would have been more ruthless in times gone by. Some of the current panel have been at it for a long time now and I’m not sure the younger lads are ready to carry flag. There also appears to be niggling injuries that are worryingly not clearing up.
Having said all that, watch them surprise me and go out and win the whole thing again and confirm what most of us already know, that they are the greatest team of all time!!!!!

Agree on Flynn and Brogan. Brogan probably the greatest ever Dublin forward of all time and Flynn of the great leaders of the team. Both great servants but their legs are gone. I would still keep Kevin Mc as impact sub. It time for Costello,Basquel and Con to step up to the next level. Kilkenny, Rock and Mannion are the leaders in the forwards now but need more support.

Stoner

I'm not sure if Flynn's legs are gone. He lost his mojo after his injury. He is showing signs of being better this year than last.

IMO Gavin's biggest potential slip up was in 2017 in not bringing in MDMA with 20 minutes to go. He'd come on the year before and won the game for Dublin by running the ball into Costello two or three times in the last 10 minutes.

Only for James McCarthy stepping up in the last 15 minutes that game was gone IMO. I'm not so sure that McCarthy input was planned either.

Gael85

Stoner wrote: »

I'm not sure if Flynn's legs are gone. He lost his mojo after his injury. He is showing signs of being better this year than last.

IMO Gavin's biggest potential slip up was in 2017 in not bringing in MDMA with 20 minutes to go. He'd come on the year before and won the game for Dublin by running the ball into Costello two or three times in the last 10 minutes.

Only for James McCarthy stepping up in the last 15 minutes that game was gone IMO. I'm not so sure that McCarthy input was planned either.

Could be more in Flynn but he should definitely banned from shooting as has a tendency to take some wild shots. MDMA was supposed to come on in 2017 final but Mannion and Con pulled up with injuries near the end. It mad to think all 6 subs used in that final were all forwards though Flynn came on midfield.

Stoner

Gael85 wrote:

Could be more in Flynn but he should definitely banned from shooting as has a tendency to take some wild shots. MDMA was supposed to come on in 2017 final but Mannion and Con pulled up with injuries near the end. It mad to think all 6 subs used in that final were all forwards though Flynn came on midfield.

Didn't he bring Costello on though.

You are right though with O'Gara and Jack coming off and then Flynn having his worst final he did run out of options.

If he hadn't brought Costello on I'd be moaning about how he'd come on and scored 3 points the year before.

MDMA has had great days out against Mayo though.

Gael85

Stoner wrote: »

Gael85 wrote:

Could be more in Flynn but he should definitely banned from shooting as has a tendency to take some wild shots. MDMA was supposed to come on in 2017 final but Mannion and Con pulled up with injuries near the end. It mad to think all 6 subs used in that final were all forwards though Flynn came on midfield.

Didn't he bring Costello on though.

You are right though with O'Gara and Jack coming off and then Flynn having his worst final he did run out of options.

If he hadn't brought Costello on I'd be moaning about how he'd come on and scored 3 points the year before.

MDMA has had great days out against Mayo though.

Brought on
Flynn
Connolly
McManamon
Brogan
Costello
Scully

Lost shape when McCaffrey went off as it took James McCarthy out of the middle. I'd say Jim must had MDMA in mind for last 20 minutes with not bringing him in for McCaffrey. In end he never got on.