BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

antoinolachtnai

What would they do with this hypothetical 28 million euro windfall anyway? CIE would just take it as a dividend and plough it into Irish Rail.

I do think a unified brand is the way to go. I think it has to be a lot more simple and bold than what NTA has in mind. Dublin Bus Yellow, Luas Amber, Dublin Bus blue and DART green are good public transport colours. The rather subtle NTA colours are just not very distinctive on the road.

Last Stop

Saw a pretty impressive new payment system being used on Edinburgh buses.
Passengers use their phone to scan a QR code at bus stops.
Part of the problem in Dublin is that their is over 1,000 stops. This idea could solve the problem. The vast majority of people have smart phones and those who don't can get a leap card. No cash would speed up bus times massively

devnull

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What would they do with this hypothetical 28 million euro windfall anyway? CIE would just take it as a dividend and plough it into Irish Rail.

I suppose they could use it to aid bidding for future contracts or to put into their commercial ventures against private enterprise, although I guess that this may well be considered as some kind of backdoor state aid which would disrupt the playing field of the commercial market.

I cannot see the Dublin Bus livery being able to be used following the comments that the chairman has made. There is no way that they are going to sign over the rights to the livery to the NTA for free and agree to drop their own website and marketing material for a fully integrated system because they are going to fight tooth and nail to keep their own brand more prominent than the system.

Realistically it's no skin of their back if they do sign the brand over and just start being an operator, they commercial activities all have their own branding such as Airlink and DoDublin for tours, so it would not effect them, I just cannot see Dublin Bus agreeing to this bearing in mind what they have said lately, their own brand is far more important than an integrated system to them, which defeats the whole idea of public service companies.

I do think a unified brand is the way to go. I think it has to be a lot more simple and bold than what NTA has in mind. Dublin Bus Yellow, Luas Amber, Dublin Bus blue and DART green are good public transport colours. The rather subtle NTA colours are just not very distinctive on the road.

The original plans was for the bus to be Blue, DART to be Green, LUAS to be Purple and Rail to be Orange, although later the idea was that instead of using green for DART and orange for rail all rail would use orange with the Transport for Ireland overall brand being green.

Personally a blue based bus livery could work well, but it has to be simpler than the overly complicated ones which the NTA has proposed so far and it has to be on the basis that all bus operators are forced to use it whether they like it or not.

This is the first chance in a long time we've had to overhaul our transport system in Dublin, operators commercial interests cannot be allowed to get in the way of what is good for the millions who may use public transport.

devnull

Last Stop wrote: »

Saw a pretty impressive new payment system being used on Edinburgh buses.
Passengers use their phone to scan a QR code at bus stops.
Part of the problem in Dublin is that their is over 1,000 stops. This idea could solve the problem. The vast majority of people have smart phones and those who don't can get a leap card. No cash would speed up bus times massively

It would need a massive investment in infrastructure to be able to enable that, approx 1000 ticket machines would need to be procured for that and that is without the back-end systems to support it.

XPS_Zero

devnull wrote: »

I agree that the current liveries proposed by the NTA are not fit for purpose, no question about that at all, but I believe the idea of having a fully integrated brand to cover all forms of public transport is the right especially when the current operators are more interested in commercial brand management than an integrated system that would benefit the public.

The problem is that the whole Transport for Ireland brand is going to be Green and blue mostly, if we start using a totally different system for the buses with their own color palette it is going to give people the impression that the buses are not part of Transport for Ireland and one of the whole points of the Transport for Ireland brand is to stop this segregation where each operator has and promotes it's own brand and start promoting the overall system instead.

The fact is that this is all academic anyway because Dublin Bus will never allow it to happen since they are basically appear to be saying that whatever happens they will not allow their brand to be eroded which gives the impression that they want to continue to use it for themselves, the mention of the brand being worth €28m may well be Dublin Bus naming it's price for the acquisition of that brand.

Personally I don't believe that the taxpayer should be forced to stump up €28m for a transport authority to purchase an asset of another public company, especially when said company has spent the last number of years arguing it is a public service and not like a commercial company.

Exactly. They can't have it both ways, they keep emphasizing it's PSO it's a public service not a commercial company like Expressway etc
The govt needs to slap them across the back of the head and tell them to do what they are told and get with the plan to integrate services it's only a livery ffsake, all it would take is a ministerial order they don't have a choice but to do what they are told in things like this.
The problem is we have a transport minister not remotely interested in his job, despite ranting about CIE for decades in the house and senate and how bad it was he seems to have no interest in actually doing anything to fix it, making him exactly as bad as every minister he always complained about.

Tell me how can a company that constantly bangs on about how it's a "public service" how it's not commercial and how it's PSO...then start talking like f---g Facebook or Amazon rattling on about "our brand". Get over yourselves ffsake

dfx-

devnull wrote: »

Because Dublin Bus is not important in the grand scheme of things, this countries transport system as a whole is far more important than the little bits that make it up and what easy of the companies want and as the Chairman of Dublin Bus has shown, they are far more concerned with what is good for them than what is good for the bigger picture.

The NTA plan is to integrate things. Leaving Dublin Bus how they are will essentially simply allow Dublin Bus to keep all the power and act like a commercial company that is more interested in protecting it's brand, power and commercial interests above the greater good of the travelling public in this country, the recent transport committee discussion lays that bare for all to see.

What we need is a proper integrated system, a single brand, a single website for DART, LUAS and Bus, with a single journey planner, with single tickets valid on all modes rather than the system we have now where all the individual parts are pushing their own agenda about what is best for them with huge amounts of duplication because they're more concerned about making their own operation more important than a coherent brand covering everything.

Unfortunately even if the NTA wanted the existing brand Dublin Bus would most likely make them pay for it and appear to have suggested it will cost at least €28m for the NTA to do that, which is laughable and shows for all to see that these days Dublin Bus is a commercial company that dresses up as a public service.

It also has nothing to do with integration or cost, you can achieve that with any colour bus.

The nub of the issue is about identity. They want to shed the DB identity.

It's nothing to do with the cost. Even if it was free, the NTA do not want the bus livery to be blue and yellow under any circumstances because they are desperate to shed the DB connection.

Do you think if it was free that NTA would stick with the blue and yellow?

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

It also has nothing to do with integration or cost, you can achieve that with any colour bus.

If it had nothing to do with cost then why did Dublin Bus mention the value of the livery and stress how much the value was worth to it and how much it will grow in the future, why mention a figure of £28m if they had no intention of ever trying to use it for financial gain?

The nub of the issue is about identity. They want to shed the DB identity. It's nothing to do with the cost. Even if it was free, the NTA do not want the bus livery to be blue and yellow under any circumstances because they are desperate to shed the DB connection.

The identity and brand of individual operators is really not important here, too much importance has been given to it over too many years by the operators at the expense of the overall system which is why we have such poor integration, since all the operators want to cling onto power and have their own identity, with their own website, their own branded street furniture and their own branded timetables and maps omitting the other operators

The reason the Transport for Ireland brand is important is that it becomes the over-arching brand that links everything together. Right now Bus, Tram, DART and everything else feel like totally separate systems that are hugely segregated rather than a coherent system because they push their own brands rather than that of the overall brand. There is no need for their own brands.

Go to many capital cities through Europe and you don't see every single city transport mode having it's own brand and identity and each operator having their own website, ticket machines and so-on, you normally see a uniform system and the only brand you see is the over-arching brand that plays a role of housing all of the information you need. Here it's all so disjointed.

Do you think if it was free that NTA would stick with the blue and yellow?

I think if that was to happen there would have to be strict conditions which I don't think DB would be willing to agree to judging from their most recent remarks. They seem determined that their identity and brand is the most important thing and to segregate themselves both from TFI and Go-Ahead.

Those would be that Dublin Bus transferred the rights for the livery and the colour scheme to TFI free of charge which would then be modified by adding the TFI logo as the main logo and an operated by segment as a secondary logo to contain the name of the operator. Also DB would need to comply fully with the integration process such as a central TFI website and transferring non operational aspects of the service to the TFI.

Last Stop

devnull wrote: »

It would need a massive investment in infrastructure to be able to enable that, approx 1000 ticket machines would need to be procured for that and that is without the back-end systems to support it.

No you're missing the point. All that's required at the bus stop is a poster with a QR code in it. The persons phone acts as the ticket machine.

devnull

Last Stop wrote: »

All that's required at the bus stop is a poster with a QR code in it. The persons phone acts as the ticket machine.

For it to be viable it would need a flat fare system to be brought in along with a large increase in ticket inspections.

Otherwise it would encourage fare evasion.

Last Stop

devnull wrote: »

For it to be viable it would need a flat fare system to be brought in along with a large increase in ticket inspections.

Otherwise it would encourage fare evasion.

How? if the person scans the code at a specific stop, a screen with the current date and time comes up and says its validated at that stop. They show this to the driver who can see the time moving and compare it to his current time.

devnull

Last Stop wrote: »

How? if the person scans the code at a specific stop, a screen with the current date and time comes up and says its validated at that stop. They show this to the driver who can see the time moving and compare it to his current time.

That's my point. To protect yourself from fare evasion you're going to have to have some form of driver interaction to verify said tickets which straight away is going to significantly reduce the benefits of using off bus ticketing since you still need to show a driver your ticket who will need to check all the information on it.

Far better way is just to use contact-less cards or LEAP with a flat fare that doesn't involve any driver interaction which is therefore much quicker.

Dyr

Last Stop wrote: »

How? if the person scans the code at a specific stop, a screen with the current date and time comes up and says its validated at that stop. They show this to the driver who can see the time moving and compare it to his current time.

lets not use that system so

cgcsb

With regard to integration, is there any big reason why we haven't just done it already? Leap cards are in 6 years now and all the revenue goes straight to the NTA anyway who pays the operators on a contract basis, so why not just bring in radial fare zones, base them on the existing luas ones even.

devnull

cgcsb wrote: »

With regard to integration, is there any big reason why we haven't just done it already? Leap cards are in 6 years now and all the revenue goes straight to the NTA anyway who pays the operators on a contract basis.

That is not the case for Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann or Irish Rail at the moment, they are on legacy contracts where they get the fare revenue so they have an interest in the farebox so they will almost certainly not accept any big changes to the fare system in one go which is why you are seeing a gradual phased merging of fare bands and simplification.

The Go-Ahead contract and perhaps the Bus Eireann Waterford services will be based on the operators being paid a fixed fee with all of the farebox retained by the NTA.

cgcsb

devnull wrote: »

That is not the case for Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann or Irish Rail at the moment, they are on legacy contracts where they get the fare revenue so they have an interest in the farebox so they will almost certainly not accept any big changes to the fare system in one go which is why you are seeing a gradual phased merging of fare bands and simplification.

The Go-Ahead contract and perhaps the Bus Eireann Waterford services will be based on the operators being paid a fixed fee with all of the farebox retained by the NTA.

Maybe the message isn't getting through to those in power. Integrated ticketing has been in place across Europe for most of the last century, just get it done already. Why can nobody get it done? Change their contracts if need be, they are state owned entities and they'll do as instructed, or they can be replaced by someone who will when their contract is up for renewal.

We lost the bid for the EU banking agency, no doubt the state of public transport and housing played a role in that decision, this isn't a game, jobs and investment depends on these things.

Bray Head

cgcsb wrote: »

We lost the bid for the EU banking agency, no doubt the state of public transport and housing played a role in that decision, this isn't a game, jobs and investment depends on these things.

No it didn't. It was decided on a coin test after a drawn vote.

GM228

devnull wrote: »

That is not the case for Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann or Irish Rail at the moment, they are on legacy contracts where they get the fare revenue so they have an interest in the farebox so they will almost certainly not accept any big changes to the fare system in one go which is why you are seeing a gradual phased merging of fare bands and simplification.

The Go-Ahead contract and perhaps the Bus Eireann Waterford services will be based on the operators being paid a fixed fee with all of the farebox retained by the NTA.

Correct, all direct award contracts are net costs contracts meaning they (IE, DB and BE) keep all fare revenue.

All competitively tendered contracts are gross cost contracts meaning the GA and Waterforsld contracts will see all fares revenue return to the NTA. BE also had a gross cost contract in relation to route 817 until last December.

The contracts with IE, DB and BE all require co-operation with the NTA in relation to fares and integrated ticketing changes/improvement.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

The Go-Ahead contract and perhaps the Bus Eireann Waterford services will be based on the operators being paid a fixed fee with all of the farebox retained by the NTA.

Don't forget that DB and BE's contract with the NTA is up in 2019. Which will likely mean that the DB and BE will likely mean that the NTA will move towards keeping the farebox of DB and BE meaning that DB and BE's will no longer make any revenue off the farebox of PSO routes.

_Kaiser_

cgcsb wrote: »

Maybe the message isn't getting through to those in power. Integrated ticketing has been in place across Europe for most of the last century, just get it done already. Why can nobody get it done? Change their contracts if need be, they are state owned entities and they'll do as instructed, or they can be replaced by someone who will when their contract is up for renewal.

Ultimately that's what it comes down to IMO - and it applies to my livery point above as well

This is a wholly State owned entity, NOT a private/commercial company regardless of what DB might like to think.

There should be no reason (other than apathy/laziness/incompetence - delete as applicable) that the powers in Government can't simply issue instructions that from here on out, this is the way it is.

Why should the public (who are funding the entire operation) come secondary to the notions and spiel of CIE staff/management?

It's nonsense.. and it's why everything takes far longer than it should, is usually significantly different and watered down from the original objective, and costs far more than it should have.

GM228

Stephen15 wrote: »

Don't forget that DB and BE's contract with the NTA is up in 2019. Which will likely mean that the DB and BE will likely mean that the NTA will move towards keeping the farebox of DB and BE meaning that DB and BE's will no longer make any revenue off the farebox of PSO routes.

Unless the NTA tender IE, BE and the remaining 90% of DB services it won't change. EU rules require direct award contracts to be net cost contracts.

dfx-

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Ultimately that's what it comes down to IMO - and it applies to my livery point above as well

This is a wholly State owned entity, NOT a private/commercial company regardless of what DB might like to think.

There should be no reason (other than apathy/laziness/incompetence - delete as applicable) that the powers in Government can't simply issue instructions that from here on out, this is the way it is.

Why should the public (who are funding the entire operation) come secondary to the notions and spiel of CIE staff/management?

It's nonsense.. and it's why everything takes far longer than it should, is usually significantly different and watered down from the original objective, and costs far more than it should have.

Hasn't government policy for years been that they must act like private companies, fairly sure I remember Leo Varadkar himself reported to say it.

It is rich now to demand the opposite.

_Kaiser_

dfx- wrote: »

Hasn't government policy for years been that they must act like private companies, fairly sure I remember Leo Varadkar himself reported to say it.

It is rich now to demand the opposite.

I'd well believe Leo came out with that as it fits with the FG mindset - but knowing Leo's track record (all talk, little results) I'm sure it sounded good at the time more than anything else.

Regardless, DB are not a private company.. they are State owned and funded and while they certainly should be allowed input, ultimately the final decision on larger projects like this should NOT be left to them.

"We don't want to give up our livery..it's worth €28 million" - A: It's not YOUR livery as a taxpayer-funded organisation, B: it's not YOUR €28 million

Simple as that... or it should be!

Stephen15

GM228 wrote: »

Unless the NTA tender IE, BE and the remaining 90% of DB services it won't change. EU rules require direct award contracts to be net cost contracts.

Thats the NTA plans afaik to have DB and BE operating under a tender.

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

Hasn't government policy for years been that they must act like private companies, fairly sure I remember Leo Varadkar himself reported to say it.

Do you have a link for these comments, as I seem to remember that those comments were more in relation to the efficiency of the company and the customer focus from what I remember rather than expecting it to act commercially and frustrate the changes that the NTA has the contractual and legislative right to make.

At the end of the day Dublin Bus and the other state companies for a number of years now have acted like they want to be a weird combination and hybrid of public service and commercial with all of the benefits of both but none of the downsides of either, that is not in the interest of the public because it means that they do not come first.

If Dublin Bus was such customer focused it wouldn't have started aggressively promoting it's own app shortly after the NTA did the same and started suddenly rolling out it's own maps after the NTA started doing the same and not resisted using the NTA's own route planner. But they didn't do that, despite the fact it would have led to a more central system.

The reason? Because they value their brand and their name above all else, they don't care about the bigger picture, they just care about retaining their image, brand, identity and power and integration isn't what they want, because it might mean admitting that there are better ways for people to get around than using them or acknowledging such options exist which they don't want to do because it's no good for them.

Unfortunately this is what happens when public services are allowed to be run so badly for so long. They become self absorbed in their own image and become so self serving in their own little world that they have completely lost touch of the reason that they were set-up to start with because they are too busy worrying about their own interests to actually carry out the duties they were set-up for in the first place.

I don't want a public transport system where Dublin Bus, First, Go-Ahead, Irish Rail, Transdev or anyone else starts to dictate how it is going to be or else they will frustrate the changes. The NTA needs the power and use such power to force parties to play ball. Ultimately if parties don't want to play ball then they should either be excluded from public transport contracts in the state or in the case of the public companies be forced to comply by the minister.

GM228

Stephen15 wrote: »

Thats the NTA plans afaik to have DB and BE operating under a tender.

I don't believe that is the case, if that was the case we would have heard about it long ago, with contracts up in 2019 the process would be well underway.

There was talk over rail services having to be tendered from 2019 under new mandatory tendering rules from the EU which the government was against, in the end the mandatory option was dropped.

RayM

I wonder if this might be the new livery...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/81709772@N07/27271512549/

devnull

Doesn't look great, hate the swoops besides there are no more Streetlites on order at the moment for Dublin Bus I heard, perhaps it's for someone else and they uploaded the wrong software on the screen?

The NTA ones were not supposed to be due anytime soon.

RayM

devnull wrote: »

Doesn't look great, hate the swoops besides there are no more Streetlites on order at the moment for Dublin Bus I heard, perhaps it's for someone else and they uploaded the wrong software on the screen?

The NTA ones were not supposed to be due anytime soon.

The colours look very "NTA" (albeit less hideous than the options they asked the public to vote on). Also it looks like the same spec as the new buses on the 44b, right down to the "exact fare" box inside.

devnull

RayM wrote: »

The colours look very "NTA" (albeit less hideous than the options they asked the public to vote on). Also it looks like the same spec as the new buses on the 44b, right down to the "exact fare" box inside.

To me that is hideous as well though, I like the blue base but the swoops just look poor, I'm not against the idea of swoops altogether, but they are very poorly implemented on that bus in my view.

RayM

devnull wrote: »

To me that is hideous as well though, I like the blue base but the swoops just look poor, I'm not against the idea of swoops altogether, but they are very poorly implemented on that bus in my view.

I'd like to see it from a better angle and on a double-decker, but I really don't like the shade of green/teal they use (it's very Windows 95). I'd almost prefer if they kept it simple and didn't have any swoops, or at least made them more discreet. The blue looks great, bearing in mind that the photo was taken on a very dull day.