BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

D8 boy

Only just found that discussion in the BusConnects - Big changes to Dublins Bus Network thread.

I think the buzz.ie report linked to is incorrect. The NTA page says
The National Transport Authority (NTA) is seeking people’s views regarding the design of a bus livery for a new service operator in the Dublin metropolitan area.
The new operator, Go-Ahead....

No mention of changing the DB livery.

D8 boy

I take your point about Dublin Bus objecting on trademark grounds.
In London you know that any red bus will take Oyster, regardless of who is the operator and I understand from previous posts how the red livery came to be available by all operators.

When the GA contract was announced there was a lot of untrue but understandable comment from Joe Public to the effect that "they're a private operator so they won't accept DSP passes" or "my monthly bus Travelwide Taxsaver will no longer be valid on the no 18". Is there not a danger of adding to this confusion by using multiple liveries on PSO services?

devnull

D8 boy wrote: »

When the GA contract was announced there was a lot of untrue but understandable comment from Joe Public to the effect that "they're a private operator so they won't accept DSP passes" or "my monthly bus Travelwide Taxsaver will no longer be valid on the no 18". Is there not a danger of adding to this confusion by using multiple liveries on PSO services?

I agree - I think that this could cause issues for the reasons you state, which is why I'm curious as to why there has been what seems to be a change in plan and what caused it.

antoinolachtnai

The other thing here is cost. Developing brands and keeping them current through design, marketing and all the rest of it is expensive.

Two brands are basically twice as expensive to maintain as one.

devnull

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The other thing here is cost. Developing brands and keeping them current through design, marketing and all the rest of it is expensive.

Two brands are basically twice as expensive to maintain as one.

But I would guess the NTA would only be maintaining one brand and the other will be part of Dublin Bus, who will want to retain it for their commercial activities.

Personally though I think all PSO should be one brand.

AlekSmart

devnull wrote: »

I agree - I think that this could cause issues for the reasons you state, which is why I'm curious as to why there has been what seems to be a change in plan and what caused it.

There is no change in plan.

NTA policy remains clear,in that there will be a single livery applied to vehicles operating it's contracted services.

What is now occuring is the decision process on what that livery will be.

With c.1,000 vehicles already possessing a strong brand and modal identity,there is an additional element in play which otherwise would not arise.

The approach to the process may well alter,as to whether the new Image is addressed in a "Big Bang" fashion,or will it be gradually fed in to the system.
There are pro's and con's to each approach,one of which is obviously cost,and the operational requirements of painting/wrapping large vehicles.

dublinman1990

An update on BusConnects from the NTA fares determination.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Determination_order_2017.pdf

2.7 BusConnects

Earlier this year the Authority launched BusConnects, a plan to fundamentally transform Dublin’s bus system, so that journeys by bus will be fast, reliable, punctual, convenient and affordable. It will enable more people to travel by bus than ever before, and allow bus commuting to become an
even more viable and attractive choice for employees, students, shoppers and visitors. Part of the BusConnects plan is revamping of the fare system to provide a simpler fare structure, allowing seamless movement between different transport services without financial penalty. This will allow passengers to complete their journey by two or more modes of travel such as Dublin Bus and Luas without financial penalty. Currently the second biggest source of bus delays, after traffic congestion, is the payment process at bus stops. As the BusConnects plan is rolled out over the next few years a simpler fare system
needs to be in place with one option currently under consideration is a minimum fare for a short journey similar to the Dublin Bus fare for 1 to 3 stages and a higher fare for longer journeys. Currently we have 3 main single fares types on Dublin Bus and 4 main fare types on Luas (down from 6 main single fares on Dublin Bus and 5 on Luas just a few years ago).

In the determination this year the Authority will adjust fares with a view to reducing the number of single fares on offer over time by holding a number of fares at current prices and increasing others slightly. By adjusting fares in this manner over 2 or 3 years it will avoid sudden large increases or decreases in fares which could adversely affect the finances of either passengers or the operators. To improve the seamless movement of passengers between different transport services without financial penalty the Authority has determined that all multi-operator fares will have no increase in 2018. This will ensure that multi-operator products such as a monthly Dublin Bus & Luas ticket will be better value going forward and make it more cost effective for passengers to use more than one mode of transport to complete their journey.

punisher5112

There should only be 2 fares at most, a proper revenue protection team brought in on a full time basis, start random checks but blitz certain routes especially those that people know are taken over by anti social behavior and get more people to travel as it will be safer and just more pleasant overall.

Update all bus stops so buses can get in and out safely along with actually having enough room to avail of dual door use as to speed up the process along with on high frequency routes enough space for more then one bus to pull in safely.

Bus stop bays should be painted yellow to stand out more and be accompanied by a big single yellow line along the kerb or better still on the kerbing itself as to highlight it as a bus stop and to try and help advertise it as is to stop illegal parking.

Lights should be set up to allow buses through quicker so sequence changes to allow them through.


Gardai and clampers around the city should be getting cars fined, clamped or removed from obstructing bus stops as what I see daily they just walk or drive on by.

If buses were quicker and all the above and many other changes to help speed travel up it would attract many more.

bk

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Currently the second biggest source of bus delays, after traffic congestion, is the payment process at bus stops. As the BusConnects plan is rolled out over the next few years a simpler fare system
needs to be in place

YES

dublinman1990 wrote: »

with one option currently under consideration is a minimum fare for a short journey similar to the Dublin Bus fare for 1 to 3 stages and a higher fare for longer journeys. Currently we have 3 main single fares types on Dublin Bus and 4 main fare types on Luas (down from 6 main single fares on Dublin Bus and 5 on Luas just a few years ago).

Nooooo......... :mad:

Two fares will simply leave us with the current mess of most people having to interact with the driver.

I suppose the ticketing is to combine the 2.15 and 2.60 fare, so that is the norm for most journeys and offered on the right hand ticket machine and have the 1.50 stage 1 to 3 as an unusual option that can only be gotten from the driver.

I suppose not the worst solution in the world. But I fear a lot of scumbags will be queuing up asking for this fare no matter how far they are going, again slowing down everyone on the bus :mad:

Just give us a damn flat fare and stop messing around!

Stephen15

punisher5112 wrote: »

There should only be 2 fares at most, a proper revenue protection team brought in on a full time basis, start random checks but blitz certain routes especially those that people know are taken over by anti social behavior and get more people to travel as it will be safer and just more pleasant.

I agree. I think that when GA take over some of the routes from DB the NTA need to set up and hire their own revenue protection team rather than having DB and GA having their individual teams. Such a revenue protection team could even utilise current Transdev and IE revenue protection staff creating a unit that can operate over all three modes of transport.

Revenue protection with DB is currently a joke the onus lies on drivers which is not right ideally buses would operate an open system similar to the luas and what is in many other EU cities with three door buses that allow boarding at all entrances and exits no responsibility placed on the poor driver. You'd never see revenue protection out at night or at weekends and I've only ever seen them on cross coty routes and never local routes. They need to be present at all times and on all times from first bus to last bus. Aren't DBs revenue protection just a pool of drivers and inspectors that assigned ticket checking duties?

I also believe that DB should employ its own security similar to IE and the Luas particularlyon routes with high level of anti social behaviour.

Lastly can a driver be disciplined if there are fare evading passengers?

Dyr

ive often see dublin bus drivers kicking ne'er do wells off for fare evasion and all the hassle that goes with it only for said reprobates to hop on the next bus unchallenged by the driver

plain clothes revenue protection and security would go a long way

antoinolachtnai

Well if you want to have easy free changes, you really need a zonal system.

You cannot move to a zonal system from a stage system by increments, which is what they are apparently trying to do.

There is a real lack of coherent policy making here.

Not surprisingly, the transition plan is equally incoherent.

Stephen15

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well if you want to have easy free changes, you really need a zonal system.

You cannot move to a zonal system from a stage system by increments, which is what they are apparently trying to do.

There is a real lack of coherent policy making here.

Not surprisingly, the transition plan is equally incoherent.

2 words: FLAT FARE

dfx-

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well if you want to have easy free changes, you really need a zonal system.

You cannot move to a zonal system from a stage system by increments, which is what they are apparently trying to do.

There is a real lack of coherent policy making here.

Not surprisingly, the transition plan is equally incoherent.

The only policy they have at the moment is trying to separate themselves from DB beit ticketing. livery, bus stop redesign (!) etc. while trying to get by on Network Direct's botched network.

Once they have to create stuff and not break structures down, there might be a policy or two of their own i.e. not aped from [insert city here].

dublinman1990

bk wrote: »

YES



Nooooo......... :mad:

Two fares will simply leave us with the current mess of most people having to interact with the driver.

I suppose the ticketing is to combine the 2.15 and 2.60 fare, so that is the norm for most journeys and offered on the right hand ticket machine and have the 1.50 stage 1 to 3 as an unusual option that can only be gotten from the driver.

I suppose not the worst solution in the world. But I fear a lot of scumbags will be queuing up asking for this fare no matter how far they are going, again slowing down everyone on the bus :mad:

Just give us a damn flat fare and stop messing around!

I agree with you in having one Flat fare as it will become a huge source of confusion for bus passengers trying to use the Bus service in Dublin. The NTA are saying in that Fare Determination PDF that 2 fares will be an aim of BusConnects regarding fares. But going from what we want ourselves one flat fare will ease the confusion & the stress for anyone paying on the bus trying to get from A to B. If there was another way of interpreting it; it could be having one flat fare for both adults & children regardless of operator by using Leap with a tag-on & tag-off card system without having to interact with the driver. If that happens; that can be a positive but insisting on having two fares added to it could be confusing in the beginning.

However I could get the last part of my point completely wrong & confuse the whole thread.

bebeman

Stephen15 wrote: »

Revenue protection with DB is currently a joke the onus lies on drivers which is not right . Aren't DBs revenue protection just a pool of drivers and inspectors that assigned ticket checking duties?

I also believe that DB should employ its own security similar to IE and the Luas particularlyon routes with high level of anti social behaviour.

Lastly can a driver be disciplined if there are fare evading passengers?

Revenue protection is 4 inspectors. They might work together as one team or split into 4 teams, each inspector with 2 drivers, so basically not fit for purpose.
Security is needed, but what are the Guards for? Would it kill them to do a few random checks on buses?
Nothing will happen to driver if passenger caught fare evading.

Stephen15

bebeman wrote: »

Revenue protection is 4 inspectors. They might work together as one team or split into 4 teams, each inspector with 2 drivers, so basically not fit for purpose.
Security is needed, but what are the Guards for? Would it kill them to do a few random checks on buses?
Nothing will happen to driver if passenger caught fare evading.

I remember reading over in England that the police were boarding double deckers and sitting at the front in order to try and catch people speeding. Not a bad idea and would put policing on buses.

Is there bonuses or OT going for drivers that check tickets if not then what icentive is there for drivers to especially as it's probably to get spat at checking tickets than driving.

Also if nothing happens to drivers why do they bother making sure people pay?

punisher5112

Stephen15 wrote: »

I remember reading over in England that the police were boarding double deckers and sitting at the front in order to try and catch people speeding. Not a bad idea and would put policing on buses.

Is there bonuses or OT going for drivers that check tickets if not then what icentive is there for drivers to especially as it's probably to get spat at checking tickets than driving.

Also if nothing happens to drivers why do they bother making sure people pay?

Some do some don't.

If you want am easier day don't hear or see anything that's basically it.


I pay my way as was brought up that way but more seem to take the other option a lot more.

bebeman

Stephen15 wrote: »

Is there bonuses or OT going for drivers that check tickets if not then what icentive is there for drivers to especially as it's probably to get spat at checking tickets than driving.

Also if nothing happens to drivers why do they bother making sure people pay?

Here is the truth about drivers working as ticket inspectors.
They are idiots!!!!!
I shall explain in simple terms, a inspector gets E150 per day and a driver get paid E100 per day.
Dublin Bus needs to increase the number of ticket checks because of NTA contract.
DB realize they dont have enough inspectors to do this, it will cost a lot of money to create new inspectors promoted from driver grade, a increase from E100 to E150 per day in pay.
So DB come up with cunning plan to appeal to idiots , we will create inspector jobs for drivers, they will get a exclusive hi-viz vest with ticket inspector printed on it, and we will offer them a extra E5 a day!
Lo and behold the idiots jump at this, the chance to get assaulted for E5 extra a day.
These idiots believe this will put them in poll position when the company needs to create actual inspectors, but why would DB promote them to a E150 per day position when these idiots are willing to do it for E105 per day?
In a word MORONS.

The reason drivers might make you pay is because they notice you are in the habit of underpaying or look like a smarmy prick trying to get one over them.

Stephen15

bebeman wrote: »

Here is the truth about drivers working as ticket inspectors.
They are idiots!!!!!
I shall explain in simple terms, a inspector gets E150 per day and a driver get paid E100 per day.
Dublin Bus needs to increase the number of ticket checks because of NTA contract.
DB realize they dont have enough inspectors to do this, it will cost a lot of money to create new inspectors promoted from driver grade, a increase from E100 to E150 per day in pay.
So DB come up with cunning plan to appeal to idiots , we will create inspector jobs for drivers, they will get a exclusive hi-viz vest with ticket inspector printed on it, and we will offer them a extra E5 a day!
Lo and behold the idiots jump at this, the chance to get assaulted for E5 extra a day.
These idiots believe this will put them in poll position when the company needs to create actual inspectors, but why would DB promote them to a E150 per day position when these idiots are willing to do it for E105 per day?
In a word MORONS.

The reason drivers might make you pay is because they notice you are in the habit of underpaying or look like a smarmy prick trying to get one over them.

5×260=1,300. That would get you on a holiday if its just you and missus for at least a week or if your bringing the kids it could the difference between going on one and not not going on one or the difference between a week in Tramore or a week in Spain or maybe even two weeks or one week or perhaps staying in a sh|thole or a half decent hotel.

But is being abused and assaulted worth for a holiday maybe so.

bk

I'm not sure why they want to make drivers, ticket checkers (I won't use "inspectors" as that seems to be a different role).

Being a driver seems to me like a more skilled and responsible job (drive safely, etc.). A ticket checker could literally be any old person off the street, with one or two days training in the fare structure, customer service and how to deal with trouble.

In other countries, ticket checkers get a percentage of each fare evader they catch.

I think ticket checkers should be specifically hired for the role, not drivers and should get a cut of each penalty fare they issue.

punisher5112

The driver checking group was brought in under measures after agreement to pay deal and to end strike and so on.


Its an extremely cheap way of doing it as its mentioned before the ticket checking consisted for years and a lot of years of 4 inspectors with 3 boarding a bus and one following in the staff car.

There needs to be at least 80 permanent checkers out there at one time not a pool of 80 drivers which were only out on occasion and not anywhere near 80 would be out as they were needed to drive.

They still don't have enough drivers to cover duties and these groups haven't been out since near the start of the year. Not sure if they are out again but months have passed and none have been out.

howiya

Stephen15 wrote: »

5×260=1,300. That would get you on a holiday if its just you and missus for at least a week or if your bringing the kids it could the difference between going on one and not not going on one or the difference between a week in Tramore or a week in Spain or maybe even two weeks or one week or perhaps staying in a sh|thole or a half decent hotel.

But is being abused and assaulted worth for a holiday maybe so.

Don't forget to deduct income tax/usc etc

bebeman

Stephen15 wrote: »

5×260=1,300. That would get you on a holiday if its just you and missus for at least a week or if your bringing the kids it could the difference between going on one and not not going on one or the difference between a week in Tramore or a week in Spain or maybe even two weeks or one week or perhaps staying in a sh|thole or a half decent hotel.

But is being abused and assaulted worth for a holiday maybe so.

They dont get it 5 days a week, every week.
Plus you have extra time and expenses of making your way to broadstone to start.
They are idiots, out of pocket and working longer hours.

punisher5112

It needs to be like the dart and luas where teams are constantly checking.


Always reminds me of when luas started and they said they wouldn't need to check passengers as the Irish were such good commuters and would pay their way.


Changed their tune on that very quickly.

Stephen15

I'm actually in Berlin presently and I'm beginning to take a differant view about ticketing. Why not put a passenger operated ticket machine on board every DB bus and on Luas trams its handy enough and it would decrease dwell times compared to paying the driver.

BonnieSituation

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It happens almost every single time on my routes. And I've done it on others.

Happened this morning and In fact it happened this evening (20min
ago) at Aston Quay. Right hand side packed with queue. And I slip up the left hand side. In fact someone got on ahead of me and tried to cross to the right to use the validator.

And again this evening around 1630...

MGWR

Stephen15 wrote: »

I'm actually in Berlin presently and I'm beginning to take a different view about ticketing. Why not put a passenger operated ticket machine on board every DB bus and on Luas trams its handy enough and it would decrease dwell times compared to paying the driver.

Well, what would the costs of such machines be versus having conductors? At least the conductor is mobile versus having space taken up for stationary machines, and with the motion of buses and trains it won't be too easy to try to get a ticket out of the machine.

Stephen15

MGWR wrote: »

Well, what would the costs of such machines be versus having conductors? At least the conductor is mobile versus having space taken up for stationary machines, and with the motion of buses and trains it won't be too easy to try to get a ticket out of the machine.

A conductor is pretty useless when most are paying with leap. But for those who currently cash it's an option which wouldn't be that many.

The machines are coin only so they wouldn't that advanced basically just slot in a coin and a ticket is dispatched this could be done while the bus is in motion compared driver interaction so it would be quicker.

bk

MGWR wrote: »

Well, what would the costs of such machines be versus having conductors? At least the conductor is mobile versus having space taken up for stationary machines, and with the motion of buses and trains it won't be too easy to try to get a ticket out of the machine.

Given unions in Ireland I suspect such machines would be far cheaper!

These type of machines have been on the buses their for decades, so good value over their life.

Anyway most cities are now replacing them with just multiple leap style/smart card validators. Basically just board via any of the 3 or 4 doors and touch on at any of the 3 or 4 validators though out the bus.