BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119130864#Comment_119130864

If they made some changes to the road layout just before stop 3785 you could probably turn a bus around safely here with a bit of widening. https://maps.app.goo.gl/ynkNbtB9UitByLPe6

Another solution could be to extend the L85 further south to Santry. The old 16b terminus in Airways Ind. Estate could be a suitable terminus that way passengers from NCD could connect to either the A2 or the A4.

Spanish Eyes

I know there is a website with maps and all the rest of it for BC, but has there been much public information announcements anywhere? You know, details of the overall situation at the moment, what is ready to use, what will be in use soon, etc. I might be living under a rock, but I don't recall seeing any media articles or posters at bus stops and so on lately, but maybe there have been and I didn't see them.

I now know where the bus hub will be situated in Liffey Valley thanks to people here showing me on google maps. I was up there the other day, and ALL the car parks are being resurfaced, but there is absolutely NO sign up saying something like "This is the site of your new bus hub" yada yada. Nothing, people I spoke to assumed that the car park was just being resurfaced.

Not everyone has access to a computer/app/etc. on a daily basis, so I just wondered how do people find out about the changes in their areas, is it by picking up a leaflet on a bus or what?

All this talk about orbital routes and the nuances around them mean little to me. It appears I would have to spend a lot of time on the TFI app or the website or journey planner to find out, and then I would need to know the names of the bus routes and start and end point or something.

But then again, I'm just an occasional user of the bus like many others. Most people use the bus on the same route, same days, same time for a commute so they will know. It is others that need to be informed in order to encourage use of the new system. On the assumption that it is better than taking a car.

Peregrine

The eastbound N4 that I was on was pausing and slowing down pretty much the whole time between Finglas and Clontarf.

There are far too many stops between Swords Road and Malahide Road.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119131671#Comment_119131671

Agreed regarding the stops, especially between Howth Road and Malahide Road.

I do expect some of the stops to be culled as further phases are pushed through - they've added some that can effectively replace others.

The N4 I was on did have three brief waits at Finglas, Ballycoolin and near the N3 junction on Snugboro Road.

With the new way of operating, with times at every stop, it's going to be a challenge to get the times right, but it will deliver hopefully a more reliable service rather than a faster one.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119131665#Comment_119131665

As each phase comes along there are posters on bus stops, notices on social media, ads on buses, and then booklets handed out at stops and on board buses, and possibly delivered to houses, along the various routes/areas affected.

In terms of rollout, so far we have had:

H Spine (Howth Road)

C Spine (Lucan Road and Sandymount)

Northern Orbitals (2 x East/West routes)

Later this year you will have:

G Spine (Kilmainham, Ballyfermot, North Clondalkin, Liffey Valley and Parkwest)

Southern Orbitals (5 x East/West routes)

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119131671#Comment_119131671

Hardly surprising given that's it's a Sunday and it usually takes a few weeks for a new route to bed in I remember the 175 being very quiet the first day it started operating. Especially on The Point to Collins Avenue section which is a completely new stretch unrelated to the old 17a.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119131665#Comment_119131665

Just to add - bookmark the page below as it is updated as each phase is rolled out - it has links to the information pages on the Transport for Ireland website for each phase of the rollout where there are multitudes of questions answered, maps provided and links to timetables.

https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/new-dublin-area-bus-network/

bikeman1

I took a spin on the N6 to Finglas and then N4 to Spencer Dock. Some comments;

Brilliant new routes

Please get rid of Drogheda Mall (like seriously what clown thought that was a good idea)

One passenger in Finglas East was looking for the 17A to get to Coolock. No easy alternative for him apart from back tracking to “Drogheda Mall” and then forward on a N6.

N4 waited time at DCU, only to feel like we lost time at Swords Rd.

There are new stops that have the N4 /6 serving them, but no other buses that pass the stop. Why?

Not enough stops around the new section of the N4 in East Wall.

TranslatorPS

N4 waited time at DCU, only to feel like we lost time at Swords Rd.

If there's a spot that even the DB the drivers will definitely adhere to on the N4, it's DCU, seeing as it's the handover point.

There are new stops that have the N4 /6 serving them, but no other buses that pass the stop. Why?

The NTA and the Operators are really bad at adding stops to every single route when a new one is installed... There's a stop out by the M50 that was added in early 2019 or so that's served by the 40d, 40e, and the N4 now, but the 220 is not scheduled to serve it (doesn't stop it from doing so apparently though) - and the 17a wasn't either. I suppose it'll be a good while before we see the stops between Swords Road and Beaumont Road added to the 16, if at all, not to mention the mess that was created near Donneycarney church, where two new N4-only stops were added within sight distance of an existing 104-only stop (all westbound) - one would assume the latter will be removed, but if they were truly bothered and capable of systematic thought they would have removed it with today's changes.

bikeman1

A terrible example of this, are the stops on the Swords Road for the N6 which have just been installed. These stops were meant to be a same stop interchange with the Swords Road at Santry Avenue.

What you have is the N6 stopping, but the 16, 33 and 41's all sailing past, making passengers walk back from the original changeover over stops closer to Omni, doing away with the purpose of the new stops. They have it right in some places, but not in others. It's messy and loses people when they are trying to get them on board.

Fizzy Duck

The N4 and N6 seem to be working out quite well. Two minor problems I can see however are:

1) I was getting off an N4 eastbound, an N6 was stopped in front. When the N4 opened its doors the N6 pulled out into traffic. It is a bit frustrating as you'd think they'd see in their mirrors and wait to allow interchange between the buses.

2) The gap between buses in the morning meaning the 0720 from The Point is in Finglas at 0756 and the 0730 doesn't get there until 0818. Surely something could be done to plug this gap?

LXFlyer

In both directions the N4 needs additional buses starting mid-route to plug the gaps - there’s a 39 minute gap in arrivals at Point Village because of the extended running times of the second bus.

baingal nancer

Got the N4 yesterday at around 6 from blanch, stopped at every single bus stop even if noone was getting on or off,some stops for a couple minutes and going as slow as possible, stopped then at dcu for a driver change over and didn't move for 6 minutes, inspector got on and said the NTA have made a balls of the timetables??

And it's been the same so far today on same bus

Posy

Ah, that's certainly not going to encourage people using it! I hate when a bus is making good time, then stops for ages because they were making good time. Very frustrating. 🙄

I get the bus into the city centre every day. It's mad being squashed like a sardine onto a packed bus in the morning, and watching others sail past full, and seeing the N4 passing every few minutes with about 6 passengers! I wish they'd throw a few buses my way at 8am! 🙈

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141117#Comment_119141117

The alternative is an unacceptably long gap in service. I'd much rather a bus kept an even headway than wait 30 minutes and 2 or 3 buses come at once. Even if it means driving slowly or stopping and waiting at bus stops. If you plan your journey properly it shouldn't be issue.

baingal nancer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141197#Comment_119141197

What do you mean by plan your journey properly? I left work and got on the next bus due

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141117#Comment_119141117

The N4 has only started - any new route will take time to build up patronage. You don’t judge a new route based on two days. The orbitals are the key part of the new bus network.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141197#Comment_119141197

Except that the scheduled headways are only even leaving the terminus on the N4, but can vary wildly along the route at peak times due to extended running times, and some buses are scheduled to overtake the bus ahead of them.

Look at the times at the stops along the route for the 07:20 and 07:30 departures ex-Blanchardstown and the same departures from Point Village as examples.

https://bustimes.org/services/n4

It doesn’t look as if it was reviewed properly. Those sort of gaps should have been plugged by additional buses starting mid-route, but it may well be (and I suspect that it is) that the running times are off kilter.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141376#Comment_119141376

Yeah that's a bit of a mess alright high frequency routes like the N4 should be running off even headway not timing points. If they can't maintain a ten minute headway then extra shorts should be added.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141117#Comment_119141117

The buses now have scheduled arrival times at every bus stop - the TFI journey planner will show these for each departure so you can see when it is due to get to a stop.

If the network is going to facilitate connections, then you have to have predictable journey times and this means that the days of buses flying along the route at top speed are gone. Buses need to be predictable at every stop, not just the terminus.

Now the issue is that perhaps some of the timings between stops on the N4 are far too generous - they’ll figure that out over a period of time and then they need to adjust the running times to more realistic ones. Ideally they should be looking at summer and winter running times across the network as otherwise they will be ridiculously slow all summer long.

TranslatorPS

The biggest problem with the N4 is that Dublin Bus are absolutely horrendous when it comes to intermediate timings.

At its core, as far as I understand it, DB just have a profile of "average speed over distance" or something to that effect: the actual timings generated have random second endings (a random trip to showcase >> https://transitfeeds.com/p/transport-for-ireland/782/latest/trip/7213.y1002.60-N4-d12-1.119.O), and the individual profiles are then appended depending on the departure from the starting stop. Amusingly enough all DCU timings are cut clean to a .00 departure.

What are we then left with? A 39-minute gap in arrivals at The Point around 9am. But that's not all. The 9.30 ex Blanch is then meant to overtake the 9.20 at Glasnevin Park, arriving 6 minutes earlier despite leaving 10 minutes later. The upstepping for the PM peak is okay, two 15 min gaps and one 18 minute gap, and then that one single 11 min gap, but then we start stepping down and we get the 18.30 overtaking the 18.20 - again - somewhere between Finglas and Glasnevin Avenue (there's a string of 4 stops when they have the same departure times), arriving at the point 8 minutes before the earlier bus. This then happens again, with the 20.30 overtaking not only the 20.20, but also the 20.10, arriving 2 minutes before the latter. The same takes place towards Blanch as well, again three times during the day, but this time it's the 18.30 ex Point overtaking two buses.

It would in fact appear that the only reason why the N4 avoided this mess on weekends is because the difference is overall trip time when stepping down is less than the frequency at the time, however there are two 1-minute-apart arrivals after 7pm on Saturdays so that's that.

The solution here is that DB should assemble running times from shorter sections of the route, not smack stuff together for the entire length at once, and then adjust the journey time based on where the trip is along the route, not on the terminus departure time. This is in fact the basic premise of how OmniTimes, the software used by Go-Ahead and Translink, works: at the very least the scheduler inputs running times between timing points, and the program interpolates the remaining intermediate timings based on that, and at most the scheduler can input running times for every intermediate section, stop by stop. A careful eye will notice that never does the N6 schedule include overtaking earlier departures - at worst they just clump together rather close, with gaps between 4 and 9 minutes at the final stop, but never overtaking.

The other thing that I have to say is that routes operating every 15 minutes or better are meant to be assessed not by the individual stop adherence of every trip, but rather on the excess waiting time, i.e. the time above an allocated allowance between trips. As far as I know, both N4 and N6 stop timetables show frequencies only for most of the day, and the EWT metric is basically "did the bus depart later than the frequency+allowance after the previous trip". In London controllers on such routes would regulate the gaps rather than make sure buses stick to their timings, but I think all of Dublin is still on the trip timing stage, even if the NTA penalizes operations on EWT metrics on such frequent routes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141314#Comment_119141314

In which case fair enough, but it does need to be mentioned that every bus now has a timing for every stop along the way, so in other words there is a minimum journey time no matter what. This is predictability.

---

I should also mention that DB have a tendency to do "silent" intermediate timing changes. I can guarantee you that the AVL timings loaded onto the buses currently are not the same as the ones from when each BusConnects phase was implemented last year. The intermediate timings are... no longer as clean, as strange a description that is, to the point that on the C routes the Aston Quay timings no longer match the handovers speculated in the working timetables (bills) - they did in November. Compared to GAI which will tell you that they're shifting stops here and there by a minute or five? Yeah, I'm sorry, I actually do have standards.

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141430#Comment_119141430

Re your second paragraph, do we know who decided that facilitating connections was more important than a fast bus?

Like if you asked a snapshot of customers "would you prefer this bus (a) gets to it's destination in the quickest possible time or b) will deliberately slow down and have artificially long stops to facilitate a minority of customers who potentially want to transfer to this bus?" - well, I personally think the majority answer will be (a).

It sounds like this design has been done by someone who has decided what they believe the customer should want, rather than what the customer actually wants. And that's never a good way to design.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142387#Comment_119142387

And what about the people left standing in the p1ssing rain because the bus ran early. I'd rather be on a bus and than be left waiting for a bus. It's not just about facilitating connections it's about creating a reliable service.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142273#Comment_119142273

Are you absolutely sure about that for the routes that have been “BusConnected”?

DB used to update the AVL times in the background every few weeks for all routes based on traffic changes when they weren’t really in the public domain (other than for those of us who went searching for them).

But now that the intermediate stop times are being published and posted at every stop, I didn’t think that’s happening anymore?

If they are being changed as you suggest then that should of course be seen as a formal timetable change and be communicated to passengers.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142387#Comment_119142387

The NTA did.

Buses having timetables for every stop is standard practice everywhere. The way that Dublin Bus previously operated with just terminus times was pretty much unique. I have never seen it anywhere else.

It’s not just about connections, it’s about people joining a bus route mid-route and having some predictability about when a bus might show up rather than it depending on how fast a particular driver drove the bus.

That might not suit you, but it is best practice in terms of operating a bus service.

Now the challenge is getting the running times right. It’s never going to be 100% but for a start there should be separate summer and winter timetables to allow for seasonal variations.

dfx-

The same intermediate thing happened on the C corridor when it was "BusConnected". Buses sitting waiting at stops to keep time while people ahead were standing in the pissing rain waiting for it. Let them stand, the bus must be kept to time.

So you would think that is a consideration before creating the N4/N6 timetable...or are we going to have this every single time and never learn to accommodate it?

Pick one intermediate point and stick to a time from there....not every stop.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142675#Comment_119142675

If they’re going for a specific bus at a stop, surely they’re not going to be waiting long if it is on time? Or are you advocating that buses should ignore a timetable and run early? If it does then people are going to have to wait even longer for the next bus.

Don’t get me wrong - there’s a challenge in getting the running times right, and some of them aren’t right on the N4, and I’ll be the first to criticise that, but having multiple intermediate timing points along each route is important to delivering a reliable service.

I have been posting here for years that getting the running times right is key. GAI had running times that were too tight when they launched and that created problems with multiple cancelled services due to buses and drivers being in the wrong place as a result of being late. It’s a balancing act, and buses shouldn’t be stopping regularly to get back on time, but at the same time they do need some wriggle room.

I certainly agree however that the NTA have gone over the top in measuring punctuality at every single stop. It’s unnecessary.

LXFlyer

Just to add that with all of these changes you are also seeing routes switching garages which means in many cases a completely new set of drivers on routes.

There’s a learning curve associated with that and it can take a little time for that to settle down.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142387#Comment_119142387

the program is literally called BusConnects - facilitating connections to create an actual "network" as opposed to a bunch of individual routes is a core objective of all the changes. I agree though that if buses are repeatedly pausing for several minutes along the route then they've got the timings wrong.

TranslatorPS

Buses sitting waiting at stops to keep time while people ahead were standing in the pissing rain waiting for it. Let them stand, the bus must be kept to time.

You missed the logical conclusion where if a bus is on time and you have the timetable for that stop at hand, then the bus is going to arrive more or less according to that timetable, so it's no longer a case of "standing in the pissing rain waiting for it", it's a case of awaiting it. You know when to expect it, roughly at least.

Like, I understand that Dublin passengers aren't used to this because CIE and DB have ruined the perception of timespace over the years, but as LXflyer rightfully pointed out, Dublin is an insane exception to the rule. The minimum that companies outside of Ireland adhere to is timing points, if not actually every stop as much as safely possible.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142629#Comment_119142629

Well...

The June 2021 timings are from this tweet of mine >> https://twitter.com/TranslatorPS/status/1405588449059614722. The June 2022 timings are from bustimes.org. Stop 604 is key because at implementation this is the stop that was timed to the 7.5 minute frequency inbound, much like the stop outside Woodies in Lucan is for the Cs.

You'll see that most of the departures listed are now earlier than in the original implementation schedules. Oddly enough, the 6 gained some major time, but at least whichever schedule change did it, they got rid of the atrociously long running time on the first outbound Sunday 6 (it's now 53 minutes, it was closer to 75 when implemented, with some stops that should be about 45 seconds apart being in fact 6 mins apart).

Also, did I miss the memo on the H9 being completely cancelled? I know it was reduced from three departures down to one after summer last year, but when was it completely cancelled? There's no specific mention of the cancellation on DB's website, but it's still listed in a mid-March note on the closure of stop 619 from 12 April, but the timetable is gone off the route list.

On the C Spine, I can guarantee you that the Aston Quay interpeak period was a clean 7/8-minute frequency, with departures I believe 03-10-18-25-33-40-48-55 past the hour between 10 and 15 on the four routes combined, with C1s on 25/55, C2s on 10/40, C3s on 03/33, C4s on 18/48. But?

(I put this together Wednesday last, more to see how many peaktime departures there were, but the little shifts left and right are quite visible.)

The implementation bill used true timings for Aston Quay handovers, and there are little changes here and there. I think all four Cs between 10 and 12 are about 3-4 minutes earlier than they were at implementation - which means that if drivers hold true to the handovers in the bill rather than the schedule, then the buses are guaranteed to be 3-5 minutes late for a good section of the road ahead.

These are small details that should be announced but are not.