BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941697#Comment_117941697

The 90 minute fare will come in when the C Spine is implemented, likely the end of November.

There will still be a short distance single mode fare aside from the 90 minute fare.

Incidentally, how would such a long LUAS trip be cheaper than the short bus trip you are suggesting?

Qrt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941864#Comment_117941864

Cheers!

also, it’s just the way the system works out. 2.25 from Harold’s Cross into town, yet I can get all the way to Ballyogan for 2.27 on the Luas.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117943816#Comment_117943816

To be fair you can get from the first stop north of Harold's Cross Green to Aungier Street on the 9 or 16 for EUR 1.50. The EUR 1.54 LUAS fare will only allow travel within one fare zone.

There has to be a cut-off point somewhere, and that's it. In terms of distance the EUR 2.25 bus fare would get you as far as Santry Village on the 16 for example from the same stop.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941864#Comment_117941864

With two ticket validators on the bus, does this mean the end of driver interaction? Automatically tag on driver-side for short fare and right hand validator for 90 minute fare...?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117943997#Comment_117943997

Given that there is the option to pay for a second fare on a LEAP card via the ticket machine, I suspect that fares issued via the driver’s machine will still need driver interaction.

Also cash fares aren’t being abolished yet.

bk

"Given that there is the option to pay for a second fare on a LEAP card via the ticket machine, I suspect that fares issued via the driver’s machine will still need driver interaction.

Also cash fares aren’t being abolished yet."

If they do it right, then they should add a second auto-validator by the drivers ticket machine for the short fare:

• Right hand validator, 90 minute fare, taxsaver tickets, etc,
• Left hand validator, short fare, free travel pass, childs fare
• Drivers ticket machine, cash and second fares on leap cards, etc.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117733977#Comment_117733977

I'd be surprised to be see the CBC planning applications by December at this stage.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944894#Comment_117944894

I very much doubt that they’re going to go to that level of capital expenditure, and to be honest you really only want two validator options.

Once you go beyond that, you start to confuse people.

bk

"I very much doubt that they’re going to go to that level of capital expenditure, and to be honest you really only want two validator options.

Once you go beyond that, you start to confuse people."

The problem is if they don't then the 90 minute ticket will be a failure.

Supposedly the "short ticket" will actually cover a larger area then the current short fare, which means many people will actually be using this ticket. If these people all have to interact with the driver, then it will just slow everything down and once again the NTA will have failed in delivering a good ticketing experience and sped up dwell times.

I really hope you are wrong or they have some other smart alternative work around that works well.

Perhaps an alternative would be to give everyone the "short fare" by default at the right hand validator and only apply the 90 minute fare for a second trip (within 90 minutes). So the short fare is more a flat single bus fare, rather then a short fare.

BTW I don't see an extra 1,000 validators being a major expense, not in the greater scheme of the cost of operating public transport. I do agree it could be slightly confusing. The single flat fare + 90 minute fare approach above would be better.

LXFlyer

I don’t see the short fare being any different from the current 1-3 stage fare in terms of distance, despite what some think.

It will mean far less use of the driver’s machine. By using the driver’s machine you’ve a degree of control over the fare being issued. I certainly wouldn’t make it the default option - that would be asking for mass fare evasion.

But having three different validators do Int different things would, in my view, be a recipe for confusion.

Re the short fare - if you didn’t have it, that would be an increase of 66% in the fare, assuming the 90 minute fare is €2.50, from the current €1.50. I cannot see that being politically acceptable.

What’s ideal from an operating perspective and what’s practical politically are generally not the same.

bk

"I don’t see the short fare being any different from the current 1-3 stage fare in terms of distance, despite what some think."

That is what some are claiming. It may or may not be true, but even if it isn't it still leaves the same problem with the stage 1 - 3 fare.

"It will mean far less use of the driver’s machine. By using the driver’s machine you’ve a degree of control over the fare being issued. I certainly wouldn’t make it the default option - that would be asking for mass fare evasion."

That is why I'd put the "short fare" validator next to the driver, easier for the driver to keep an eye on it.

Let's be honest, fare evasion of this sort is already massive. If you make the 90 minute fare the default at 2.40, while still having a 1.55 short fare, I predict we will only see an increase in such fare evasion.

"Re the short fare - if you didn’t have it, that would be an increase of 66% in the fare, assuming the 90 minute fare is €2.50, from the current €1.50. I cannot see that being politically acceptable."

As I said, the best option is the following:

• Have a default €2 flat bus fare, this is what the right hand validator gives.
• 90 minute ticket €2.50, this is given by tagging in a second time in 90 minutes (adding 50c to the €2 you already paid).
• No short fare, that means these people pay 45c more, but those currently on the 2.50 fare, pay 50c less, so it should even out.
• This should eliminate most fare evasion, you could even get rid of most ticket inspectors on the bus.

I think this approach would work well. Easy to understand, doesn't require extra validators, etc. reduces fare evasion, should really speed up dwell times, should be revenue neutral between balancing the fares and in particular if you get rid of ticket inspectors and push up cash fares.

Really this is the ideal approach.

I fear that the NTA will just shove in a 90 minute ticket, with no thought on how to reduce driver interaction and actually reduce dwell times. If they do that, then it will just be another faliure like the Leap card rollout was. I'd really hope that the NTA have learned from their past mistakes and will do better this time.

LXFlyer

I meant the right hand validator being the 90 minute or further than three stages fare.

The driver’s ticket machine for the shorter fare (1-3 stages) which will require interaction due to the driver having to issue other tickets as required. Drivers are not fools either - a sudden increase in people asking for that fare tends to result in the passenger being asked where they’re going.

I’ve not seen any suggestion of a “default flat fare” as you suggest anywhere. That’s not been the plan at all. Everything that I’ve read has suggested the options will be two fares - a short fare (3 stages or similar) or the 90 minute fare will be the only options.

bk

And if they do what you suggest above, it will be another massive FAILURE.

They need to properly reform the ticketing system and not just the fares, but the entire way it works with a focus on eliminating driver interaction and reducing dwell time.

If they just bang in the 90 minute ticket in the way you are suggesting, then it will make very little overall difference [1] and will be another massive missed opportunity.

[1] Sure it will be nice for the small minority of people who use two buses, in particular as we get the orbital routes. But realistically they make up a very small percent of users over all.

I'd consider a second auto-validator next to the driver the absolute minimum to do if they introduce two fares like this (Short + 90). Continuing to use the driver for the short is unacceptable.

I'd hope that the reforms to ticketing are broader like I suggest above or they have some other smart work around.

Keep in mind London Bus (and trams) is a £1.55 flat fare for 60 minutes of travel. Nice and simple. The NTA desperately need to deliver ticketing for our buses that is as simple and straight forward.

They need to pull the finger out and finally fix this.

LXFlyer

I’m not sure why you need the block capitals - no need to shout.

Well that was really my point to another poster a month or so ago - the 90 minute ticket, while nice to have, really does only facilitate a minority of users. Most regular passengers who make two individual trips will be using monthly or annual passes.

But I genuinely just cannot see them having three possible validation options (left/right/driver’s machine) - that is just way too confusing for people. The numbers of 1-3 fares issued are relatively small compared to the other two which are to be combined into one - which means there will be a substantial drop in people using the driver’s machine. But dropping that short fare would be a political hot potato.

As I said before, politics does come into this whether we like it or not.

As for London, most bus trips in London are relatively short compared to Dublin where the bus is the backbone of the public transport network and many people are making very long trips on a bus. So a flat fare is a lot harder to justify politically.

I also wouldn’t necessarily cite London as a good example right now - Transport for London is in chaos financially and that fare may have to increase in time to make up losses. They’re also cutting bus services back substantially.

We shall see in due course.

bk

"I’m not sure why you need the block capitals - no need to shout."

I'm shouting because I'm frustrated at how many decades it is taking to sort out this very obvious issue.

"I also wouldn’t necessarily cite London as a good example right now - Transport for London is in chaos financially and that fare may have to increase in time to make up losses. They’re also cutting bus services back substantially."

Hold on there, Dublin Bus and Irish Rail would now be bankrupt and shutdown if it wasn't for the support of the government over the past 18 months!

London Bus was hit by the same massive drop in passenger numbers due to Covid and while they have also received financial support from the UK government, the conservatives unsurprisingly seem to want to use this opportunity to cut public transport spending.

Fortunately our government seem to be avoiding this for now. But don't kid yourself, this has nothing to do with the fares charged by London Bus or DB. DB with their high fares would absolutely have been gone broke by now if it wasn't for the 100's of millions extra pumped into them by the NTA and likewise, LB wouldn't be ant better off with higher fares, not when they saw an 80% drop in passenger numbers last year.

BTW looking at the NTA presentation about ticketing posted last year by Dublin Commuter Coalition. It seems in phase 1, we will have the 90 minute ticket on the right hand validator, with the short fare on the drivers ticket machine. By Phase 5, the drivers ticket machine will be completely removed, with a new Driver management terminal, but no ability to take leap/cash or short fares. Instead we will only have either a flat fare or tag-on/tag-off at the right hand validator.

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1330634938199240706

So it looks like we will finally get there. But looks like it will take years to get there. Far too long IMO, they should pull the finger out and get this done much faster. No reason why they couldn't do flat fare or tag-on/tag-off right now.

BTW from the above presentation, it looks like when contactless payments is introduced at first, it will only apply to the 90 minute fare and not the short fare.

LXFlyer

Look I only posted what I reckon would happen, based on my own long experience of observing the operators and more importantly the political inertia that constantly surrounds public transport here. It might not be to your liking (or indeed mine), but hey that’s what I think.

Perhaps go and shout in a darkened room, but I’d rather you didn’t in a reply to me.

Anyways, you’ve merely confirmed what I understood would happen in phase 1.

Whether we ever get to phase 5, God knows. I share your frustration at the slow speed of change but at this stage I’ve stopped getting my hopes up unnecessarily, and that way I don’t end up getting upset about it.

bk

The more I think about it the more ridiculous it is.

They have barely touched the Stage 1 to 3 fare over the years. It went from €1.45 in 2014 to €1.55 today.

Meanwhile my fare in the same period has gone from €1.95 to €2.25 and the last fare determination said it will increase again (probably around €2.30 to €2.40) to get it to the new 90 minute fare.

And I'll get almost zero benefit from it. I and everyone in my area are only one bus ride from town anyway. And it looks like we won't even get much dwell time improvement out of it with so much driver interaction continuing for the short fare.

bikeman1

One thing that I wondered why it was never introduced is the right hand validator only collecting the maximum fare from that stop.

Where I get on my bus into town, it is just inside the €2.25 charge for a An Lár terminating bus. Yet, nearly every single pax has to interact with the driver and say €2.25 bud. If the validator knew (by being linked to the drivers machine who updates the stages) that from our stop the max fare to complete the route was €2.25, we could all fly on and tag on the right with no interaction if going into town. Naturally this wouldn't apply for the return unless going all the way.

This would then further improve for those doing the last hop at the end of a route as it would further update to the €1.55 fare. Just a straightforward idea that would improve dwell times for the very very well used €2.25 fare heading into town or towards the end of a route.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949260#Comment_117949260

I wound up paying over 2 euro to travel for about 1 minute on a bus a few weeks back..

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949260#Comment_117949260

this is far too sensible an idea so will never be implemented.

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949260#Comment_117949260

We're talking about equipment constructed in more or less the late 90s when the stuff already on-board has issues remembering what it has to do already...

But yes, I also wonder why that was never introduced...

Poxyshamrock

Or we could go wild altogether and just introduce a flat fare. If London can do it, I don't see why Dublin can't. £1.55 whether you take one stop or 20.

The regional cities of Limerick, Cork and Galway also make you interact with the driver even though, there's essentially a flat fare in all these cities

dublinman1990

There is some speculation going around online today that the 1, 15A/B & the 27 are meant to leave Ringsend depot for good once the C Spine along with the 52 begin to operate their routes in Dublin from the 28th of November. There is a proposal out there to say that the 1 is going to be transferred to Broadstone. We already know here that part of the current 1 route from Townsend St to Sandymount is going to be taken over by the C1/C2 from November. I think the 1 going to Broadstone is sensible in that the depot has enough buses in it to run the shortened version of the route if other depots near the city centre are going to be operating the newer BusConnects routes over the next while. The 15A/B routes are meant to switch over to Summerhill. Although I have no idea which depot the 27 is going to yet. There is also some confusion out there about how many new PA's are going to be needed to operate the new C-Spine & 52 routes at Ringsend.

rx8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117955449#Comment_117955449

The 15A/B will have the same number of buses (22) when it moves to Summerhill. The No.1 will only need 11 buses max. when it goes to Broadstone, down from 14.

Ringsend is getting 40 PA type buses.

20 will be required for the C1/2 also 20 buses from Phibsboro for C1/2.

Ringsend will also use 17 buses for C3/4 & 52 routes and Phibsboro 5.

There's no talk of anything changing with the 27's at the moment.

TranslatorPS

It looks like some of us have seen the same PVR proposal by this point so...

Let me just say "dead mileage goes brrrrrr" with the proposal of the L58 and L59 going to Phibsboro, yet the L53 and L54 going to Conyngham Road.

I'm also particularly curious as to what arrangements will be in place for PHB buses terminating in Ringsend, as the only other instance of a route from a different garage terminating at a garage (CNR's 13 in Harristown) has a separate turn-around point provided - no such space in Ringsend after all.

dfx-

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922734#Comment_117922734

Wasn't the idea to condense all the 66As and 44Bs, supposedly challenging to visitors and people without an in depth knowledge, into an easy to digest format? How has it ended up with that mess...

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969557#Comment_117969557

Ah come on, that’s nonsense. You’re just making a mountain out of a molehill.

With any network redesign it is inevitable that some journeys which can be done directly will require a change.

The numbering is very straightforward:

A-H are spines

L - Local routes not serving city centre

N - Northern orbitals

O - Inner orbital circular

W - Western orbitals

S - Southern orbitals

P - Peak only routes

X - Express routes

The radial routes (non-spine routes to/from the city centre) are numbered between 1 and 100 using route numbers not currently in use (with the exception I will concede of the 37, which I think shouldn’t be used), and which rise as you go around the city in an anti-clockwise direction from northeast to southeast.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969557#Comment_117969557

Again, your now edited post is still a nonsense.

As per above the numbering is straightforward and people will adjust.

Tbh it sounds like you’re clutching at straws here.

TheChrisD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969570#Comment_117969570

The new 37 is still, what, 85% the same as the current 37 though?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117975913#Comment_117975913

It is but it will inevitably cause confusion for anyone going to Laurel Lodge, Carpenterstown and Diswellstown which are the principal demand areas uniquely served by the current 37, when the new 37 will go via Blanchardstown Village and Clonsilla Road.

Nowhere else in the new network have they used a current route number for a radial route. While there will be confusion anyway, using completely different numbers just eliminates one of the possible reasons.

Personally, I'd use 30 for the Rathborne-Ballsbridge route, and use then 36 instead of 37.