BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117775826#Comment_117775826

They've moving to it because it provides a consistent service for everyone. You feel its retrograde, most people don't and find the old ways frustrating in the extreme

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117775826#Comment_117775826

The idea is to create a network whereby people can rely on buses to connect at various locations. You cannot do that with the old model. While that isn't particularly obvious with the H Spine, it will certainly become apparent when the C Spine launches in October, as certain locations will rely (off-peak) on connecting services to/from the Spine rather than direct buses as now, some of which will be every 30 minutes for example. Secondly the point of the new approach is to deliver a consistent service along the core section of each spine, rather than the random

As an aside, the manner in which Dublin Bus has operated (and CIE Dublin City Services before them) was pretty much unique. City bus services across the world operate to a schedule along the entire route, not simply departure times from the terminus. We have been conditioned to a particular way of thinking which doesn't deliver consistency along the entire route, which is what the new approach is aiming to do.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117775831#Comment_117775831

To be fair to some of the posters above, the current off-peak running times on the H Spine schedule are probably far too generous, as buses are often crawling along the entire route, barely getting out of second gear, and still having to stop and wait to recover time at points along the route. That is frustrating for passengers. The running times will need reviewing, but September will see traffic levels and loadings increase, and that may eat into some of the excessive running times.

Ultimately, I suspect that two sets of timetables will be needed during the year (as indeed GAI use on their routes) - one for the summer months from June to August with faster running times, and another for September to May which will reflect the increased traffic and passenger loadings while schools and colleges are back, and people are less likely to be on holiday.

As we are exiting the lockdowns, it is fair to say that it's difficult for the schedulers to get the running times between each stop exactly right, as there is significant uncertainty about what the traffic conditions and loadings are going to be like with so many people working from home currently.

People will need to cut the bus companies some slack as they try and get the running times right. It may take a few months (as it did with GAI initially). Dublin Bus are clearly erring on the side of caution in their scheduling as they launch the new spines, but that will hopefully improve as the timings are reviewed over time.

I do have certain reservations about the performance criteria that the NTA are employing for the bus companies, which measures punctuality at every single stop. That's massive overkill and will encourage the bus companies to schedule cautiously for fear of being penalised rather than taking a more optimistic approach.

Ultimately, it's a balancing act, and it will take time over the next few months to get right. People will need to be a little patient.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117775547#Comment_117775547

The schedule allows for consistent headways of 7-8 minutes along the core part of the H spine, but the timetables on the H-Spine inbound are not clockface anymore departing from the termini.

Look at the H spine timeable inbound - the departure times from each terminus have to vary to get buses to arrive at stop 604 at St Anne's Park consistently 7-8 minutes apart based on predicted traffic levels along the individual parts spine routes at different times during the day.

That does mean that for the individual parts of the H2 and H3, and indeed the 6, where frequency is lower, the timetable is still pretty important for the user.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776000#Comment_117776000

This is the other problem with such an approach of course, enforcing timings at each stop means making changes to timetables requires updating the timetable information at every single stop along the route. Not only that, but with the spine approach, it would require changes to all bus stops that are part of the same spine - it becomes logistically more complicated to implement. And it's not true to say that the old approach to DB timetabling is unique, London bus timetables along stops mid-route also specify an expected frequency (rather than an exact time) once interval gaps fall below a certain threshold.

d51984

Was driving the H1 the other day and got the head chewed off me for driving too slow. We have the lads keeping timings now all day every day in Raheny village and Howth Rd opp the Texaco garage.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776220#Comment_117776220

You're not quite right there about London.

While the information displayed at stops in London shows headways, each departure on every route does have fixed timings at certain points along the route and has done for decades. They are on every London bus driver's running board.

Here is route 1/N1 for example: http://londonbusroutes.net/times/001N001.htm

Ten timing points along the route.

They certainly do not operate the old DB model which was solely the departure time from the terminus.

You are absolutely right about the impact though of changing the timetables - it's a massive logistical exercise. The NTA have not been very good at maintaining that for GAI routes to date - some stops had wrong timetables displayed for over 12 months based on old running times (this was all pre-Covid), and even now my local stop displays totally incorrect stop times for GAI routes.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776220#Comment_117776220

I've often been on London buses that stopped because they were ahead of schedule, some of these would have been in the most frequent of routes too.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776277#Comment_117776277

In that case, maybe it would make sense to move to a similar approach for timetables here because it would avoid the need to update bus stop displays every time there's a tweak to timetables.

thelord

The bus is now taking longer to ger into town which is crap when you have to use it every day as it keeps stopping all the time to keep on shedule.

The Shedule need to be ammended as its wasting passengers time.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776504#Comment_117776504

Bear in mind that in less than two weeks the schools go back and loadings and indeed the traffic are all going to increase and the current timings may become more accurate as a result.

I suspect any review of running times won’t happen until perhaps the end of September when a clearer picture of what the stop to stop timings should be emerges as society returns to work, school and college.

I do agree that it is frustrating, but people will need to be a little patient while all of this beds in.

thelord

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776539#Comment_117776539

a bus running at 06:30 can get to town faster than a bus leaving at 08:00 and should allowed to do so.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776627#Comment_117776627

Well I would point out to you that in fact they do have different running times.

The 06:33 inbound H1 from Baldoyle is scheduled to take 39 minutes to Abbey Street arriving there at 07:12.

The 07:56 departure is scheduled to take 46 minutes, arriving there at 08:42.

The real issue is tweaking the individual running times for every departure to reflect the reality on the ground.

There is no point in doing that right now, as in less than two weeks the traffic conditions and numbers using the buses are likely to change significantly with the return of people to offices, and the schools reopening,

The existing running times may become more realistic and there may be less deliberate slow driving along the route as a result as buses spend longer at stops due to more passengers boarding/disembarking or are stuck in traffic more than they are currently.

I would fully expect that there will be changes to the running times, but as I say this is a new approach to scheduling for Dublin Bus, and you will need to be a little patient while it beds in. By the end of September, I would expect that they should have enough information to fine tune the schedules to last until next summer when summer timetables will be needed.

But I would say that the days of buses leaving the terminus and going as fast as they can to the other terminus are over. They will have to abide by the stop-by-stop timings along the route so as to deliver a consistent service for each stop along the core parts of each Spine.

cgcsb

Any word on fares. There was supposed to be integrated ticketing in September last I heard. But then again we've been phasing in the integrated ticketing for 12 and a half years now.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776729#Comment_117776729

The 90 minute fare is due in October along with the C spine.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776729#Comment_117776729

You keep on posting this canard.

There was no intention of introducing a time based ticket when LEAP was being planned. You seem to have got it into your head that there was. I certainly do not recall any such commitment as part of the launch of LEAP.

What was planned was the epurse that you could use across each of the different modes of transport along with daily/weekly capping.

I suspect that it’s a case of you expecting something that wasn’t committed to, or perhaps you listened to ill-informed politicians rather than the transport organisations.

Incidentally I would point out for the vast majority of regular travellers, there were multi-mode daily, weekly, monthly and annual tickets available for years that offered good discounts and continue to do so under Taxsaver. The notion that there were no integrated tickets available is a nonsense.

There was no integrated time based single fare - that is a whole different product.

Fare structure simplification happened subsequently, phased in such a way to avoid major shocks to passenger pockets and company finances, but if I’m honest, Busconnects was the first time a commitment to a time based multi-mode single fare was made by the NTA.

As Peregrine posts the 90 minute multi-mode fare has to happen with the introduction of the C Spine as this phase withdraws certain direct services between the city and certain locations outside of peak times, thereby requiring people to connect.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776790#Comment_117776790

I never said anything about a time based ticket merely that the process of phasing in integrated ticketing began in 2009, which is true and we were told at the time that it was the first phase in the introduction of integrated ticketing. Now that the final phase is in sight, almost 13 years later, I'm happy it's being done but my point is that processes in this country are clearly not fit for purpose if phasing in integrated ticketing takes over 12.5 years. And takes place a century after the rest of Europe adopted same.

similarly, re-organisation of bus routes (bus connects network review) is slated to take about 5 years but of course is likely to take longer. Given we have already seen months of delays.

Building the first metro line, announced in 2005 hasn't a sod turned and the project was redesigned and relaunched in 2018, still well over a year from sod turning on that too.

It's just not acceptable to have a starting point of Europe's worst public transport while implementing reform at a pace significantly slower than is observed in the rest of the developed world, ensuring we will never reach parity in terms of service.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117777167#Comment_117777167

Sorry, but you have repeatedly implied in your posts that no integrated tickets existed, and that a single journey multi-mode fare was planned from the outset. I will point out again that integrated tickets have been available in Dublin since the 1970s, and that no such single multi-mode fare was even suggested during the LEAP planning.

The single multi-mode fare only arose as part of the BusConnects project.

The vast majority of public transport users are not making a single journey. They are making the same journey each day, and most making a multi-mode journey in their daily commute would have had either a weekly, monthly, or annual integrated bus/rail ticket.

This particular ticket will faciltate some, but not the majority of daily travellers who already get an integrated ticket through the Taxsaver Scheme, or just use single mode for their journey, so while it's a positive development, it's not the be-all and end-all that you imply that it is.

London doesn't even have a single journey multi-mode fare, let alone pretty much all of the rest of the UK, so we are ahead of our nearest neighbours in that regard.

The network revision is not as late as you imply. If you are talking about the original timeline, let's be honest, as I said before to you, it was ludicrous and was completely unachievable. That plan was never going to happen.

Personally I view the network project as realistically starting with the first revision published in October 2019. I discount the original plan as it was based on daft notions that certain individuals within the NTA held, and was emphatically (and rightly so) rejected by the public.

So 11 months later in September 2020 the final plan was published, and nine months later the first phase was implemented, delayed a couple of months, due to the Covid lockdown. The C Spine is launched in a couple of months, a month later than the planned implementation schedule, also due to Covid, and we will back on track next year with all the orbitals being launched along with the G Spine, so I don't share your pessimism about the network review. You really need to tone down the hyperbole somewhat it about it potentially taking longer. The network changes are the part of BusConnects that I expect will actually happen on schedule.

As for the rest - well unfortunately that's where politics intervenes. Like it or not, ultimately all those decisions about Metro, DART Underground have been political ones. That's a reality of Irish life. I don't like the delays to them any more than you do, but if you're going to live here, I think you do need to adjust your expectations so that they are capable of delivery within the parameters of Irish politics.

Remember too that the worst recession in recent history happened during the early 2000s when we had to be bailed out. Expecting high spending then when it was frowned upon by the people bailing us out is naive to say the least. Thankfully we seem to have a more enlightened view of spending on capital projects. But I fully expect some parts of BusConnects Core Corridors to end up in the courts - I predicted that here on the day the plans were first published.

So until spades are in the ground for Metro and BusConnnects infrastructure, I will continue to keep my expectations low, and that way it really won't get to me as it seems to do to you. We have short term political vision in this country, and strict planning rules. That will always mean that big projects take longer than desired or don't happen at all.

cgcsb

I stopped reading after first paragraph. Too boring. You're saying I've implied something which I haven't in the first instance and yes we were 100% told that integrated ticketing was on the way in 2009 starting with leap. Integrated ticketing means multi modal

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117777657#Comment_117777657

No need to be rude or patronising. If you can’t cope with the details then there’s not much hope. I tend to read everything in detail rather than making sweeping comments and assumptions.

As I said fully integrated tickets have been available since the 1970s. Didn’t need LEAP for that. You just don’t want to acknowledge that.

As for 2009 - we were not told that a single multi-modal single fare would happen back then. You’ve just continually (and wrongly) assumed that.

LEAP was launched as an epurse that could be used across modes - that’s what they meant by “integration”.

I’ve read every single fare determination report since the first one in detail each year and the first indication of multi-mode single ticketing was only mentioned when BusConnects was launched.

The claims in your posts are wrong about the timeline. Maybe just accept that.

I am happy to criticise the NTA & operating companies, but they never promised what you are claiming they did back in 2009. I think it’s fair to say that you added two & two together and made five.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776504#Comment_117776504

Ah but the timetable is lovely and neat now. The passengers just need to get used to these types of improvements.

stephenjmcd

Not sure if this is the correct thread (couldn't find another one best suited) for this query, mods feel free to move if not suitable.

Is there any movement or talk of an expansion of the 24hr routes once the night time economy comes back which looks like soon enough. In particular Southside routes, 145 or 46a, any plans for these to move to 24hrs ?

jams100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821577#Comment_117821577

They terminated the Airlink route, no sign of the nitelinks returning anytime soon either.

I guess with all the changes bus connects will bring I imagine nightbusses aren't the highest item on their agenda right now.

Should be 24hr transport though in a growing capital city

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821577#Comment_117821577

There are eight 24hr bus routes planned as part of the new BusConnects network but this is subject to funding.

dublinman1990

I just want to ask a query about the 86, 87, 88 & 98 having it's terminus in Mountjoy Square. Will those routes be officially allowed to remain there from the evening time up until the last bus at night for every night of the week? Given how these new routes are drawn up; I assume they will be run from Donnybrook because the 7/7a currently do have a curtailment in place to allow them both to terminate at Parnell Square from every evening up until the last bus because of ASB taking place at Mountjoy Square. Would these new BusConnects routes terminate at Parnell Square at that time of the night.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776733#Comment_117776733

Late November now

jd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913532#Comment_117913532

As part of the C-spine Changes, the 1 from Santry will terminate in Townsend Street, and then run around Pearse Street to get back to Santry. It had earlier been rumoured that it would terminate in Parnell Square.

rx8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117915183#Comment_117915183

The 1 won't be waiting anywhere in Townsend St. on safety grounds. It will either go to Ringsend Garage or around to the Police station in Pearse St. (Well at least MY bus will! )

jd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117915269#Comment_117915269

Would you not be happy waiting where the Screen Cinema was? I heard a presentation was given to drivers, were DB planning something different?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117915761#Comment_117915761

That presumably is the last set down stop. There is no space there any more for buses to layover due to the building works.

The layover would have to be at the stops on Pearse Street opposite the Garda Station, where presumably the first pickup stop will be too.

rx8

There was no presentation given to drivers. We were initially informed that the terminus would be Parnell Square. As usual, we'll be the last to know. The manager who decides all this stuff is on holiday until next Monday, so I'd definitely say that the October 31st implementation date won't happen now. There's going to be plenty of running time anyway so that you can spin down to Ringsend to "ahem" use the facilities, instead of hanging around Townsend St, fielding questions about why the No.1 is no longer going to Ringsend and Sandymount.