BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

Stevek101

Any H9 timetable?

rx8

Stevek101 wrote: »

Any H9 timetable?

H9 is only a peak hour service. I think only in the mornings, but I could be mistaken.

New schedules are being worked on at the moment to keep the 29a drivers and the 31/32 drivers on their own routes

hunnt

rx8 wrote: »

Do tell us where you are getting all your inside information. I mean, you sign up with a new account and post on 2 threads now that a strike is looming. What's that all about? No one ever mentioned strike before. Are you a driver?

Didnt know you had to be a regular user to post here, but it now makes sense seeing the ill informed rubbish usually posted about DB in this echo chamber.
The new rosters are nasty, now i dont know where users here live but as we know DB is no different than many jobs in Dublin and workers commute from all over to work, so here is a little thought exercise for you to do, pick any depot and consider that the one you are based in and work out what time you would have to leave home to get to work on time and how long it would take to get home after work finished, now with that in mind how long would your day be if you where on a duty that started at 0400am and finished at 1645pm? Well that one of the new bogie duties, now the early duties start at 0400am and lates are finishing at 0200am the duties are mostly 4 hours work 2 hour break and 4 hours work, a ten hour shift for 8 hours pay, not all starting or finishing in the depot, so add traveling time (30 mins?) in and out of city center to depot, how long would your day be?
The pension that drivers was told was going to be insolvent with months unless they agreed to changes , well the changes where voted in about 2 years ago and the minister for transport has yet to sign off on them, now drivers for a third time are been told doom and gloom must accept changes for pension, first time was 10 years ago when the routes where all rearranged. Drivers pissed with being dicked around.
Pay rise, where is it? supposed to be sorted out after years of talks in 2019, no sign of it but NTA want all sorts of changes, well sort out the pension and pay then you get your changes.
The new rosters wanted by NTA before the sorting out the agreed pension and pay rise are the straw that broke the camels back, unions reps on the ground are completely in the dark, word is there will be a blue flu type thing and a refusal to work new roster, DB will sanction drivers and we will have a all out strike, unions not onboard as dont want to pay strike pay, trouble is brewing big time, wont be long now before it comes to a head

thomasj

Just noticed that they've changed the Blanchardstown area map now and the 2-way-loop service that goes through Blanchardstown-village and centre will now serve the Hartstown-Huntstown loop.

I didn't even notice that before

devnull

devnull wrote: »

Agree that Go-Ahead should have information up but the changes on their side are smaller in comparison to the changes that are being made to the services that are/will be operated by Dublin Bus. This is something that needs to be sorted next week. It should have been up today in my opinion.

I wouldn't be so quick to praise Dublin Bus for their information either though. Compared to the information on the TFI site, the DB info is very vague and very brief. They need to have a lot more info there before launch in terms of maps, route information and timetables. Hopefully it's just still work in progress and will be up next week.

Even the TFI information could be better. Whilst it's far more comprehensive than the wafer thin info published by Dublin Bus, the timetables are not laid out in a very neat way and it looks like it was a bit of a rush job to get it out. With the dates being known for a while, you have to ask why, unless things went very much down to the wire in terms of timetables because of issues with rosters as described upthread.

Generally whilst it's good to have all the info out there now, this project is going to live or die based on the ability of the operators and the NTA to communicate the changes in an effective manner. The jury is very much out on whether they will be able to do that, since the initial signs are very much pointing to 'should do better'.

So, Dublin Bus finally have the pdf timetables up on their website and they've gone from having very sparse and vague detail to being more specific and improved it, but still it's nothing more than average at best. Surprisingly there is nothing on the timetable pages for the routes that are changing, it would have been good to have had a note there linking to the BusConnects info etc. It's certainly better than it was but there still is plenty of scope for being improved further to assist customers come changeover day.

Nothing at all has been added to the Go-Ahead Ireland pages in terms of changes on their side. Yes they are much smaller than those effecting Dublin Bus so I could understand them not being there last week, even if really they should have been. But nothing being there by now is completely unacceptable. They should be publishing something without delay, unless they have been told not to for whatever reason. This is not good enough.

As for the NTA, odd to see no real press release, a week or so after they put the initial plans on their website. Also odd that there's no mention of the H9 anywhere. Yes I know it's not a very regular route, but it's odd they haven't put anything at all up about it. And despite this much talked about huge media campaign, I haven't seen anything that would suggest that 'huge' is the right word to describe it.

So last weeks verdict was 'should do better' and a week later, whilst there has been some progress, it's nowhere near enough. This week? Must do better.

noelfirl

I think you're being a bit too kind devnull. At this stage if I was grading the quality and integration of transport-related information in Ireland I think I'd be leaning more towards "inexcusably appalling".

I think it's just a bit embarassing overall that in 2021 the basic concept still mostly revolves around individual operators, updating independent websites, with varying levels of information, of an often middling level of quality. Hope has almost completely faded from me that there might eventually be a single unified "TFI" site that acts as *the* definitive repository of information on services (and yes, I know the a-b.ie journey planner does fulfil that in terms of holding data, but not to my mind in a very accessible or indeed nice way).

devnull

I think you're being a bit too kind devnull. At this stage if I was grading the quality and integration of transport-related information in Ireland I think I'd be leaning more towards "inexcusably appalling".

If it was still like it by the time we roll over to Monday, I think I'd be going down that road! I've noticed there is a tendency to announce things late on a Friday in public transport circles in the past, so it was with that in mind I didn't go in that hard just yet!

noelfirl wrote: »

I think it's just a bit embarassing overall that in 2021 the basic concept still mostly revolves around individual operators, updating independent websites, with varying levels of information, of an often middling level of quality. Hope has almost completely faded from me that there might eventually be a single unified "TFI" site that acts as *the* definitive repository of information on services (and yes, I know the a-b.ie journey planner does fulfil that in terms of holding data, but not to my mind in a very accessible or indeed nice way).

I completely agree, but some of the companies that make up the TFI publicly funded transport network are very protective of their brands and their own independent identity and they are not going to agree to forego that overnight, as much as it would be better for the end user.

punisher5112

devnull wrote: »

I completely agree, but some of the companies that make up the TFI publicly funded transport network are very protective of their brands and their own independent identity and they are not going to agree to forego that overnight, as much as it would be better for the end user.

But they have given up, db is just a management company just like transdev

devnull

punisher5112 wrote: »

But they have given up, db is just a management company just like transdev

Just because they have agreed to a compromise livery, it doesn't mean that they have given up on their own brand and identity, unless there is something that has happened or is coming that suggests otherwise?

dublinman1990

Why have Dublin Bus not put up the new timetables for Spine H and the 6 on their timetables listings page yet on their website?

Also; how will Dublin Bus intend to display the new timetables on their site when the new routes launch on the 27th of June? Will they remain as PDF's or will they remain in HTML format on their website. I'm asking this as it's a bit unusual for me to see the new timetables displayed on the site as PDF's rather than HTML.

I would say up to this point that their attempts to even put up the new timetables on their website is still ok & half hearted at best.

I do acknowledge up to now that they are making efforts to add more information to the website bit by bit right up to the launch of Spine H and the 6 route on the 27th of June which will be on Sunday week. But their efforts with displaying the new timetables in particular are only seen on their official BusConnects landing page of the Dublin Bus website is not great. It needs more improvements made to make it more sensible. There are no timetables listed on the official press release about the launch of Spine H and the 6 even though it's on the home page of the Dublin Bus website. The maps of the routes on the other hand are displayed without any problems for all of their customers to see on that page. But again the timetables for Spine H and the 6 are displayed on separate links through their pages from the BusConnects Hub. That really is not good at all for the general transport user in Dublin to see this information as the new timetables should be on that same page that's showing the press release as well as the new maps.

To just give an example of what I'm talking about regarding the H Spine and the 6 launch from the press release here.

https://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/-New-Bus-Connects-Network-to-launch-/

When the actual meat of the plan of where the Spine H and 6 timetables are provided, through separate links, here.

https://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Bus-Connects-Hub/

There are official banners on the Dublin Bus home page which have the title "Your bus network is growing into a sustainable and efficient bus service". Customers probably won't realize that page is informing people about the launch of Spine H and the 6 for BusConnects Dublin. Those same customers could probably think that they might be misleading them for the launch of the Hybrid Bus fleet in the company instead even though the info on the Hybrid buses are displayed on a separate banner on the home page. The Hybrid Bus page btw is the one that's called "We're Driving Change". I hope the customer don't get too confused with seeing this info as the hybrid's are slowly coming onto the network.

There is also an official link underneath the official press release that redirects to the TFI website but it just goes to it's home page only. It doesn't display a direct link at all to the Spine H launch page on TFI's website. It will probably take you an extra click or two to get onto that particular page on the TFI website when ideally it should be done within one click only. That is incredibly awkward for people to do at this point if they don't know how to navigate themselves around the TFI website properly especially if they are completely new to using the site for the very 1st time.

Citrus_8

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Why have Dublin Bus not put up the new timetables for Spine H and the 6 on their timetables listings page yet on their website?

Also; how will Dublin Bus intend to display the new timetables on their site when the new routes launch on the 27th of June? Will they remain as PDF's or will they remain in HTML format on their website. I'm asking this as it's a bit unusual for me to see the new timetables displayed on the site as PDF's rather than HTML.

I would say up to this point that their attempts to even put up the new timetables on their website is still ok & half hearted at best.

I do acknowledge up to now that they are making efforts to add more information to the website bit by bit right up to the launch of Spine H and the 6 route on the 27th of June which will be on Sunday week. But their efforts with displaying the new timetables in particular are only seen on their official BusConnects landing page of the Dublin Bus website is not great. It needs more improvements made to make it more sensible. There are no timetables listed on the official press release about the launch of Spine H and the 6 even though it's on the home page of the Dublin Bus website. The maps of the routes on the other hand are displayed without any problems for all of their customers to see on that page. But again the timetables for Spine H and the 6 are displayed on separate links through their pages from the BusConnects Hub. That really is not good at all for the general transport user in Dublin to see this information as the new timetables should be on that same page that's showing the press release as well as the new maps.

To just give an example of what I'm talking about regarding the H Spine and the 6 launch from the press release here.

https://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/-New-Bus-Connects-Network-to-launch-/

When the actual meat of the plan of where the Spine H and 6 timetables are provided, through separate links, here.

https://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Bus-Connects-Hub/

There are official banners on the Dublin Bus home page which have the title "Your bus network is growing into a sustainable and efficient bus service". Customers probably won't realize that page is informing people about the launch of Spine H and the 6 for BusConnects Dublin. Those same customers could probably think that they might be misleading them for the launch of the Hybrid Bus fleet in the company instead even though the info on the Hybrid buses are displayed on a separate banner on the home page. The Hybrid Bus page btw is the one that's called "We're Driving Change". I hope the customer don't get too confused with seeing this info as the hybrid's are slowly coming onto the network.

There is also an official link underneath the official press release that redirects to the TFI website but it just goes to it's home page only. It doesn't display a direct link at all to the Spine H launch page on TFI's website. It will probably take you an extra click or two to get onto that particular page on the TFI website when ideally it should be done within one click only. That is incredibly awkward for people to do at this point if they don't know how to navigate themselves around the TFI website properly especially if they are completely new to using the site for the very 1st time.

I think it's just because TFI doesn't want uneducated people who are against BusConnects to disturb the process. Rather, new routes would be implemented and old ones closed in some short period of time. I think it's the way to play it safe and see what happens so they could learn from opponents for the next phases.

dublinman1990

Citrus_8 wrote: »

I think it's just because TFI doesn't want uneducated people who are against BusConnects to disturb the process. Rather, new routes would be implemented and old ones closed in some short period of time. I think it's the way to play it safe and see what happens so they could learn from opponents for the next phases.

But that's the thing though. All of these new bus routes are largely set in stone at this point & cannot be changed by will of public protests from some members of the public that are publicly against these changes in the first place. The general direction that these projects like the Network Redesign & CBC projects have been worded and reported in a way up to now have been shown to be taking a very negative direction among a lot of people who live in Dublin who are probably not bothered in using public transport. It has also not been promoted in a positive light by the media or by the unions right up from the early stages of the project as we are currently talking about it right now & how the plans are progressing at the moment.

I would say that the people who have been against these changes & have been giving out substantial lies about this project towards members of the public from day one right up from it's official launch in 2018 up to the present day really need to get over themselves & get used to these changes in Dublin over the next few years. I know that sort of statement is not a nice thing to hear at this point but it really needed to be said at this point. The people of Dublin do need this project because the current system that we have right now is outdated & needs to be changed to a new system to reflect the modern needs of the city.

Separately; there is some unofficial word going around that when the Spine C routes will be based in Ringsend from October; both the 15a/b will be transferred from Ringsend to Summerhill as soon as next month. Some routes that serve the Lucan Road will also be transferred to Ringsend but that maybe planned to be done at a later date.

dublinman1990

A new T-side ad campaign has appeared on Clontarf's SG buses ahead of the launch of Spine H this Sunday. They are the exact same banner ad's that promote their BusConnects Hub from the official website of Dublin Bus. I know that I have been quite critical of how Dublin Bus have communicated these new changes to the public in recent times. But these new ad's look amazing on these buses in the green & yellow livery.

They will probably do more of this when Spine C is launched in October.

Here's some photos as an example

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-NmNqFSm/0/XL/i-NmNqFSm-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-m93NxmV/0/XL/i-m93NxmV-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-v9SMfkR/0/XL/i-v9SMfkR-XL.jpg

_Kaiser_

Eamon Ryan on Newstalk just now talking about this, but it comes across as a complete anti-climax with the actually impactful stuff like the "corridors" all coming soon - several years from now, which of course (this being Ireland) is far from certain and what form it will ACTUALLY be delivered in even less so.

This is basically a renumbering and PR exercise. The way he described the service at the top of the interview it is basically (as I said ages ago) CitySwift 2.

When the actual service fails to improve, coupled with the confusion it'll cause, my expectation is that support will fall away and it'll be quietly dropped or further diluted.

d51984

dublinman1990 wrote: »

A new T-side ad campaign has appeared on Clontarf's SG buses ahead of the launch of Spine H this Sunday. They are the exact same banner ad's that promote their BusConnects Hub from the official website of Dublin Bus. I know that I have been quite critical of how Dublin Bus have communicated these new changes to the public in recent times. But these new ad's look amazing on these buses in the green & yellow livery.

They will probably do more of this when Spine C is launched in October.

Here's some photos as an example

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-NmNqFSm/0/XL/i-NmNqFSm-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-m93NxmV/0/XL/i-m93NxmV-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-v9SMfkR/0/XL/i-v9SMfkR-XL.jpg

They have been on Clontarfs SG,s the last few weeks.

punisher5112

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Eamon Ryan on Newstalk just now talking about this, but it comes across as a complete anti-climax with the actually impactful stuff like the "corridors" all coming soon - several years from now, which of course (this being Ireland) is far from certain and what form it will ACTUALLY be delivered in even less so.

This is basically a renumbering and PR exercise. The way he described the service at the top of the interview it is basically (as I said ages ago) CitySwift 2.

When the actual service fails to improve, coupled with the confusion it'll cause, my expectation is that support will fall away and it'll be quietly dropped or further diluted.

Don't forget change to drivers hours, duties etc...

Work life balance out the window.

The numbers could stay the same it's just like when gai took over, they increased their frequency on the day they started.....

cgcsb

Tend to agree, I'd expect a bit more fudge to come. One thing that's especially concerning is there hasn't been any communication on how the proposed corridors will interact with the existing covid mobility measures that DCC just set up without any glossy reports, consultants or planning application and in some locations they provide a superior solution to what is proposed under bc

Two components of the scheme that I'm concerned about and are so utterly crucial have been kicked around in public with no visual progress yet are:

1) integrated ticketing, now promised in September so fingers crossed but this has been 'imminent' since the introduction of leap in 2009. The whole scheme depends on this and if it can't be delivered large parts of it will have to be forgotten about.

2) Enforcement of proposed and existing rules. Including giving the NTA camera enforcement powers. Government are politically reluctant to do this, I guess because their motoring voters feel entitled to drive and park anywhere because they pay 'road tax' and have Joe Duffy on speed dial.
Without this they might aswel cancel at least 3 of the proposed corridors because they'll just be used as car commuter routes or car parking. If its only 1 in 100,000 people who abuse the bus gates who get a caution from a garda then I'd say just pack the whole thing in to be honest and I'm not sure if it's dawned on the politicians just how severely restrictive the bus priority measures will be on cars. If it were put into place tomorrow by next week the city centre would see a dramatic reduction in cars.

AngryLips

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This is basically a renumbering and PR exercise. The way he described the service at the top of the interview it is basically (as I said ages ago) CitySwift 2.

When the actual service fails to improve, coupled with the confusion it'll cause, my expectation is that support will fall away and it'll be quietly dropped or further diluted.

I love that you have to look back, past the successful implementation of Network Direct, to find an example of a change initiative in DB being poorly delivered.

_Kaiser_

AngryLips wrote: »

I love that you have to look back, past the successful implementation of Network Direct, to find an example of a change initiative in DB being poorly delivered.

My point was the Minister for Transport went on national radio this morning and the way he talked about it, there was very little real imminent improvements mentioned - there was no talk of increased service hours for example (he did mention increased frequency though, but it didn't sound like anything new that we don't - theoretically - see on the flagship routes as is)

The way he came across (and granted, Ryan is far from the best communicator - even on his best day) it reminded me more of the botched CitySwift idea (which like this, would have been good had it been delivered) than anything else.

Your average listener/punter isn't going to care about a lot of the detail and info that contributors on this thread would know/care about. All they would have heard is bus numbers are changing but all the meaningful changes are still years away.

dfx-

AngryLips wrote: »

I love that you have to look back, past the successful implementation of Network Direct, to find an example of a change initiative in DB being poorly delivered.

Successful :pac:

Network Direct is a cause of a lot of problems today with the main services - increased length of journeys (routes are far far too long), traffic bottlenecks, 40C, 13C, 27Cs are the result to try and make up time and it caused driver changeovers mid route.

AngryLips

dfx- wrote: »

Successful :pac:

Network Direct is a cause of a lot of problems today with the main services - increased length of journeys (routes are far far too long), traffic bottlenecks, 40C, 13C, 27Cs are the result to try and make up time and it caused driver changeovers mid route.

I'm sorry I would have to disagree with you there. My own personal experience has been that the provision of cross-city routes resulting from ND has made a huge difference in the usefullness of the DB service for me.

d51984

One of our SG,s (Clontarf) suffered minor damage while out on a test run on the Watermill road this morning. The new speed bumps installed over the last few days do not like buses. Hopefully these will be rectified before Sunday.

StreetLight

Most media outlets are reporting on the upcoming changes correctly. However, John Kilraine's report on RTE is a farce, referring to the H Spine as a route and claiming the new Number 6 will connect areas it does not even go near.

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2021/0624/1231121-dublin-bus-routes/

Edit: He has since edited the earlier version of the report to something a bit more factually correct.

bk

dfx- wrote: »

Successful :pac:

Network Direct is a cause of a lot of problems today with the main services - increased length of journeys (routes are far far too long), traffic bottlenecks, 40C, 13C, 27Cs are the result to try and make up time and it caused driver changeovers mid route.

Well arguably it was successful in it's primary goal, which was to reduce operating costs significantly, while maintaining the overall network and continued connectivity to most routes. Passenger numbers had dropped significantly because of the recession (30% AFAIR) and thus revenue and they needed to reduce the number of buses and drivers, while still trying to maintain the service.

In many way's BusConnects is reversing much of these ND changes and perhaps even going beyond.

d51984

Shame we wont have any PA class on the H spine

donvito99

StreetLight wrote: »

Most media outlets are reporting on the upcoming changes correctly. However, John Kilraine's report on RTE is a farce, referring to the H Spine as a route and claiming the new Number 6 will connect areas it does not even go near.

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2021/0624/1231121-dublin-bus-routes/

RTE's Parking Correspondent.

p_haugh

StreetLight wrote: »

Most media outlets are reporting on the upcoming changes correctly. However, John Kilraine's report on RTE is a farce, referring to the H Spine as a route and claiming the new Number 6 will connect areas it does not even go near.

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2021/0624/1231121-dublin-bus-routes/

The Journals article isn't all that better either - it refers to H1, H2, and H3 as separate spines. And they also fail to mention anything about the 6, the only mention of it is in the screenshot they have from the official brochure!

donvito99

p_haugh wrote: »

The Journals article isn't all that better either - it refers to H1, H2, and H3 as separate spines. And they also fail to mention anything about the 6, the only mention of it is in the screenshot they have from the official brochure!

Its amazing how difficult people are finding this. The concept of a spine bears no real difference to the current arrangement whereby the 15, 15A, 15B etc have different termini on either side of the city but all converge for a time between Rathgar and Dame St.

But as soon as you put a letter before a number people lose their minds.

devnull

AngryLips wrote: »

I'm sorry I would have to disagree with you there. My own personal experience has been that the provision of cross-city routes resulting from ND has made a huge difference in the usefullness of the DB service for me.

The only thing that Network Direct was successful in doing in my case was to get me to switch back to taking the car to and from work for the first time in many years, thanks to the savage cuts to the 4 which had a very negative effect southbound in the mornings and northbound in the evening in terms of largely increased dwell times and inability to board a service.

So are the H routes better or worse for the people of Howth, Malahide etc.