BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

CatInABox

L1011 wrote: »

Ryan's crayons on Metrolink may have holed it below the waterline.

In fairness to Ryan, I think that the sewer beneath the Canal had far more to do with with the south side section being delayed than his crayonism, but he did contribute to making it easier to cancel. The various campaigns against Metrolink, such as "Rethink Metrolink", coalesced around him and what he was saying, and rather than engage in a meaningful way, he just continued reaching for the crayon box.

The same is happening with BusConnects and the green party as well, they oppose felling trees and are campaigning against it on that basis, but they aren't campaigning for removing/reducing car access. It's the equivalent of just straight up campaigning against BusConnects.

hmmm

CatInABox wrote: »

The same is happening with BusConnects and the green party as well, they oppose felling trees and are campaigning against it on that basis, but they aren't campaigning for removing/reducing car access. It's the equivalent of just straight up campaigning against BusConnects.

It's so easy to distract the Greens because they are incapable of understanding compromise. If there is one tiny little bit of a plan that can be seen as something unenvironmental, their supporters latch on to this as a reason to oppose the entire thing. Most big public transport projects don't die because they are officially cancelled, they are simply long-fingered forever. In my experience, the way to know whether something will be delivered or not is to look at the delivery dates - do they keep getting pushed out for "further consultation", or is someone standing behind the dates. Ultimately you can have all the consultation you want, but everyone is never going to be happy - and you have to stop asking for their opinions and tell them what the decision is.

I think this Green surge is real, but I don't think the Greens will be the ones to deliver it - and in many ways their presence is actually getting in the way (crayons all over Dublin for Metrolink and trees for Bus Connects being obvious examples).

AlekSmart

hmmm wrote: »

It's so easy to distract the Greens because they are incapable of understanding compromise. If there is one tiny little bit of a plan that can be seen as something unenvironmental, their supporters latch on to this as a reason to oppose the entire thing. Most big public transport projects don't die because they are officially cancelled, they are simply long-fingered forever. In my experience, the way to know whether something will be delivered or not is to look at the delivery dates - do they keep getting pushed out for "further consultation", or is someone standing behind the dates. Ultimately you can have all the consultation you want, but everyone is never going to be happy - and you have to stop asking for their opinions and tell them what the decision is.

I think this Green surge is real, but I don't think the Greens will be the ones to deliver it - and in many ways their presence is actually getting in the way (crayons all over Dublin for Metrolink and trees for Bus Connects being obvious examples).

On the button !

Jarrett Walkers original plan,even with it's warts n' all,really is/was a gamechanger in terms of Dublins Bus Network into the medium term future (2040).

JW stood behind it all the way,even inviting criticism and engagement on a level NEVER before seen in ANY of the many expensively commissioned "expert" reports and consultancy studies commissioned over the past 4 decades.

He never claimed that Busconnects was perfect,neither did he attempt to deflect from the very obvious challenges,but BOY has Mr Walker been dissed by the native Irish transport elite,to a degree beyond rational explanation.

Way back at the launch of the initial Busconnects concept,Walker mentioned,almost in throwaway fashion,that the plan could not work piecemeal,it had to be either accepted conceptually or rejected.

Busconnects was always going to suffer from being targeted on Dublin 2040,our native attention span simply does not compute periods of time beyond the here & now,something which our administrators continually play to and benefit from each time an election comes around.

The NTA have made it's choice,it's up to the rest of us now to make of it what we can.....:(

Qrt

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What parts are isolated?
So it's a case of Mé féinism?

I don’t know if you’re referring to me or other people thinking about themselves, but Tallaght is quite isolated. The 77a’s loop is replaced by the local 240, but it’s all/mostly aimed at bringing people to The Square to get the D2 (exactly the same as the present 27) or the Luas, while the 49 is replaced by the S6/7 (essentially the 75 until Nutgrove) with the intention to get the A1/present day 15.

Would I prefer it all done in one go? Absolutely! Will it be much messier doing it this way? You bet. The “spines” are nearly all in-situ at the moment, but we just don’t see them as such. But the idea that it being done in phases will result in the bus network in this city never ever improving is a stretch.

Stephen15

Doing it in phases won't work but then again doing in one go probably won't work either. As there would probably be months of no shows, drivers taking wrong turns, RTPI issues, drivers not knowing routes, problems with timetables and buses keeping on schedule, passenger confusion etc. All the issues we saw with routes moving to GAI but on a scale multiplied by 100.

cgcsb

So I've seen a copy of the proposed new network redesign.

I'll comment in more detail later but main take home points are:

-a dramatic increase in the peak-only/express network
-The B and F spines have increased in frequency by a considerable amount
-The 14 (Chapelizod) is now high frequency
-Dunboyne feeder route now goes via littlepace road and is high frequency
-There's now lots of new low frequency numbered radial routes (granny buses) that mimic parts of the network that were left out, estates and what not, I suspect that some may be phased out when they start running empty. This kinda makes a farse of the spine system and the map is now very complex, with lots of lines going on windy routes through the centre.
-The G spine now operates via winetavern st and the quays and terminates at Spencer Dock
-The A spine runs via O'Connell st and College Green, CG plaza is now abandoned
-The D spine also uses Wine Tavern street and the quays

Evil_g

What's the thinking on increasing spine frequencies at this stage I wonder? Hardly a result of public consultations? Perhaps just a revision of their own demand forecasts?

I'm pleasantly surprised that the F spine still exists to be honest. For now.

Granny busses might be a clever way of separating the two camps opposing this.

CatInABox

Evil_g wrote: »

What's the thinking on increasing spine frequencies at this stage I wonder? Hardly a result of public consultations? Perhaps just a revision of their own demand forecasts?

I'm pleasantly surprised that the F spine still exists to be honest. For now.

Granny busses might be a clever way of separating the two camps opposing this.

The spine frequencies were based on the network from a few years back, so some of them actually had less buses on the road than what was currently available. They needed to be boosted to maintain/improve on the current capacity.

Pixel Eater

cgcsb wrote: »

So I've seen a copy of the proposed new network redesign.
-The A spine runs via O'Connell st and College Green, CG plaza is now abandoned

Aren't they restricting car access and making it into a plaza over the next three weekends? Thought it was for the purpose of eventually making it permanent?

MJohnston

cgcsb wrote: »

-The A spine runs via O'Connell st and College Green, CG plaza is now abandoned

The plaza plan has long since accepted that north-south buses will continue running. Does this suggest east-west running also?

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

The plaza plan has long since accepted that north-south buses will continue running. Does this suggest east-west running also?

The A spine and some new radial routes (numbered non spine routes are shown using O'Connell bridge, College Green, Dame St, George's St.

I don't think there is an appetite in DCC to pursue the plaza given the volume of change that is currently due to happen in the next few years, bus connects, Liffey cycle route etc. The trial days will probably go ahead but I doubt much will come of it this year anyway.

My inbox is filling up with queries so will have to wait till later to address every question.

CatInABox

cgcsb wrote: »

I don't think there is an appetite in DCC to pursue the plaza given the volume of change that is currently due to happen in the next few years, bus connects, Liffey cycle route etc. The trial days will probably go ahead but I doubt much will come of it this year anyway.

And yet they're still talking about it quite recently in the media about submitting again once the required modelling is complete. Perhaps they've significantly changed the plans to include an east-west bus gate?

More likely in my opinion, I'd say that the NTA no longer believe that it will be constructed in time for BusConnects-day, and so are no longer planning for it. It'll be easier to change the spines to cater for any changes to College Green once they're up and running.

cgcsb

CatInABox wrote: »

And yet they're still talking about it quite recently in the media about submitting again once the required modelling is complete. Perhaps they've significantly changed the plans to include an east-west bus gate?

More likely in my opinion, I'd say that the NTA no longer believe that it will be constructed in time for BusConnects-day, and so are no longer planning for it. It'll be easier to change the spines to cater for any changes to College Green once they're up and running.

That's a possibility, but I do know that no progress has been made by DCC on the above task.

cgcsb

Update:

-The need to interchange seems to be greatly reduced and overall it seems that there's been a large boost in frequency across the network
- Some of the new radial routes are quite heavy duty. e.g. the new 82 runs from Swords to Merrion Sq via the A Spine and then Gardner St (new A spine uses O'Connell Street. Not sure why it isn't just called the A5 or something like that for simplicity.
- There is a new, 7th Spine, 'H', which will run from the City Centre to the north east via Howth Rd, H1 to Clongriffin, H2 to Malahide and H3 to Howth Summit. The H spine will end in a Talbot St-Abbey St loop along with numerous granny buses and the 64

CatInABox

I guess all the O'Connell st running explains the need for new bus shelters there. Wonder if they'll try and make it bus only at some stage?

cgcsb

CatInABox wrote: »

I guess all the O'Connell st running explains the need for new bus shelters there. Wonder if they'll try and make it bus only at some stage?

This could be easily done, at present it's actually pretty hard to get to in a car. and really at this stage it seems ridiculous that there's no high quality cycle route on the street. Taxis are a scourge but I expect 24 hr bus running will reduce numbers to something more manageable, most of their business is from late night and airport runs (which will also eventually be savaged by metro).

CatInABox

cgcsb wrote: »

This could be easily done, at present it's actually pretty hard to get to in a car. and really at this stage it seems ridiculous that there's no high quality cycle route on the street. Taxis are a scourge but I expect 24 hr bus running will reduce numbers to something more manageable, most of their business is from late night and airport runs (which will also eventually be savaged by metro).

The Arnotts car park is probably the biggest obstacle.

LeinsterDub

CatInABox wrote: »

The Arnotts car park is probably the biggest obstacle.

Couldn't that be countered by offering an effective carte blanche to change the car park into retail and leisure space?

CatInABox

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Couldn't that be countered by offering an effective carte blanche to change the car park into retail and leisure space?

That's always been an option for Arnotts, it's a massive area in the centre of the city, and so could be redeveloped in a heartbeat.

There is a belief that people being unable to park will reduce sales. It's a common belief, common because it "feels right", but is not shown in any of the data surrounding parking and consumers.

john boye

CatInABox wrote: »

There is a belief that people being unable to park will reduce sales. It's a common belief, common because it "feels right", but is not shown in any of the data surrounding parking and consumers.

The irony of this is that many retailers around Henry Street have reported a big increase in footfall since Luas Cross City started.

cgcsb

I think overall there should be a strategy to reduce parking in Dublin, getting rid of Arnotts and BT would be a good start as they are the most problematic. I'm actually not sure why they haven't done this voluntarily already. They could swap them for posh hotels and it'd surely be more lucrative than car parking. There also needs to be a great reduction in street parking. However this is quite an aside from BusConnects. There should be a separate strategy to tackle this after bus connects, liffey cycle etc. are done. There needs to also be a vast expansion in pedestrian space, namely college green, South William and Exchequer st etc., even making these streets bike only would be a huge boost.

Qrt

This is great news about the routes, but obviously we all have to take it with a pinch of salt. Is there any change in the orbital routes? The O and W4 routes would be tremendous additions for me personally. Have any of the local buses been cancelled in lieu of the “granny buses” being introduced, or are they conplimentary?

L1011

Arnotts are already considering a hotel in/on the upper part of the carpark

Any changes spotted to the C spine? There were a few sore points, chapelizod change fixes one anyway

Last Stop

cgcsb wrote: »

So I've seen a copy of the proposed new network redesign.

I'll comment in more detail later but main take home points are:

-a dramatic increase in the peak-only/express network
-The B and F spines have increased in frequency by a considerable amount
-The 14 (Chapelizod) is now high frequency
-Dunboyne feeder route now goes via littlepace road and is high frequency
-There's now lots of new low frequency numbered radial routes (granny buses) that mimic parts of the network that were left out, estates and what not, I suspect that some may be phased out when they start running empty. This kinda makes a farse of the spine system and the map is now very complex, with lots of lines going on windy routes through the centre.
-The G spine now operates via winetavern st and the quays and terminates at Spencer Dock
-The A spine runs via O'Connell st and College Green, CG plaza is now abandoned
-The D spine also uses Wine Tavern street and the quays

Based on that summary unfortunately, I don’t see much improvement
-B and F spines were already 6 minute frequencies. Anything higher than this is virtually impossible with buses. Especially given both are not fully segregated all the way into city centre
-if the Dunboyne is still a feeder bus to Blanch then it doesn’t offer much improvement although it does reduce the number of routes which is a plus.
-lots more low frequency radial routes is actually a disaster pandering to the NIMBY crowd
-Winetavern st is one way northbound so how are the going to solve that? If they make it 2 way the liffey cycle scheme will be fun. At Christchurch it’s too tight to be two way given the amount of traffic going down the hill.

All in all while it’s good that they have made progress, from the highlights here it’s arguably a step backwards

Spanish Eyes

CatInABox wrote: »

The Arnotts car park is probably the biggest obstacle.

CPO. Immediately. In our dreams.

Same applies to the BT car park on South William Street. If ever there was a place to be pedestrianised it is this street, but no, there is egress from BT car park.

The time has come to stop all the car parks in central Dublin. Someone made a lot of money out of them and fair dues, but it no longer sustains a great life for anyone (apart from car parkers and owners) in the city anymore. They are holding up a lot of progress IMV.

donvito99

Last Stop wrote: »

Based on that summary unfortunately, I don’t see much improvement
-B and F spines were already 6 minute frequencies. Anything higher than this is virtually impossible with buses.

This may be true elsewhere, but not in Dublin. I live in an area where the longest I will wait is approx. 2-3 mins for a bus at rush hour (14/c. 15/a/b/d, 65/b, 83/a, 140, 142, 18). It works brilliantly and as such, is overcrowded.

-Winetavern st is one way northbound so how are the going to solve that? If they make it 2 way the liffey cycle scheme will be fun. At Christchurch it’s too tight to be two way given the amount of traffic going down the hill.

Winetavern St will accommodate traffic in both directions at it's narrowest point i.e. at the top of the hill at the junction with High St, where multiple lanes are not needed.

Last Stop

donvito99 wrote: »

This may be true elsewhere, but not in Dublin. I live in an area where the longest I will wait is approx. 2-3 mins for a bus at rush hour (14/c. 15/a/b/d, 65/b, 83/a, 140, 142, 18). It works brilliantly and as such, is overcrowded.



Winetavern St will accommodate traffic in both directions at it's narrowest point i.e. at the top of the hill at the junction with High St, where multiple lanes are not needed.

Dublin is not unique when it comes to transport modelling unfortunately. From a customer point of view where you have multiple routes yes it’s fine when you need to go to the city centre but in reality, each of the buses you refer to is meant to be at a 10 minute frequency and I guarantee that isn’t the case now. Anything less than 10 minutes will lead to bunching meaning you get 2 buses together and not another one for 20 minutes.

I would suggest you go there during either rush hour and you’ll see the junction of a High st. is constantly blocked with traffic who can’t get onto winetavern. There is no way they can lose a lane there.

donvito99

Last Stop wrote: »

Dublin is not unique when it comes to transport modelling unfortunately. From a customer point of view where you have multiple routes yes it’s fine when you need to go to the city centre but in reality, each of the buses you refer to is meant to be at a 10 minute frequency and I guarantee that isn’t the case now. Anything less than 10 minutes will lead to bunching meaning you get 2 buses together and not another one for 20 minutes.

Unfortunately for your assessment, this is not the reality. I can have a bus pass me full in the mornings, and a 15d or 14 will follow a moment or so later and stop. I have never had to wait more than 10mins for a bus (except in catastrophic traffic) in approx. 10 years.

I would suggest you go there during either rush hour and you’ll see the junction of a High st. is constantly blocked with traffic who can’t get onto winetavern. There is no way they can lose a lane there.

Winetavern St widens to almost four lanes at present at the bottom of the hill i.e. where it matters from a traffic point of view. And in any case, Dublin's private motorists are undeserving of any more road space.

cgcsb

Qrt wrote: »

This is great news about the routes, but obviously we all have to take it with a pinch of salt. Is there any change in the orbital routes? The O and W4 routes would be tremendous additions for me personally. Have any of the local buses been cancelled in lieu of the “granny buses” being introduced, or are they conplimentary?

O and W4 remain the same as do all orbitals more/less except for the N6 which is completely gone in the new plan and the S7 which also gone, and a more frequent S6 is in place. The granny buses do mean some curtailment of more useful routes unfortunately but in general the network has improved frequency and more connections but is more difficult to navigate at a glance.

cgcsb

L1011 wrote: »

Arnotts are already considering a hotel in/on the upper part of the carpark

Any changes spotted to the C spine? There were a few sore points, chapelizod change fixes one anyway

C4 will take a straighter route past Weston aerodrome and both C1 and C2 will continue to terminate at st John's near Sydney parade. All of the c branches appear to be now at a lower mid day frequency