BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

LastStop · 19-06-2019 1:46pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Most people make regular trips and know only their own route (or 2 or 3 routes perhaps) so it makes little difference to most people if it is phased or not,

I guess it depends on what's getting phased and in what order.

If you are going to start messing about with peoples ability to move from A to B, withdrawing direct buses to city and then not having corridors in place to reduce the journey time that a two bus trip would take, well I can see a lot of angry people.

I'm surprised to see how many people think phasing is an escape route from Bus connects. They've got to do something, there's been too much hype not to implement something.

cgcsb · 19-06-2019 1:51pm

LastStop wrote: »

I'm surprised to see how many people think phasing is an escape route from Bus connects. They've got to do something, there's been too much hype not to implement something.

You've hit the nail on the head there, something will be done but nothing as extensive as bus connects. The suburban interchange hubs will be built, there'll be integrated ticketing, some of the less contentious bus lanes will be built, but CPOing gardens, making Rathmines one way for cars, making Old Cabra road bus only, the Mount Brown bus gate, just forget about it.

There might also be a reworking of the city centre, a new CG plaza, but unlikely imo.

Pixel Eater · 19-06-2019 4:54pm

If it is going to be implemented in phases now then they should start will a few basics that would improved the current system. Namely:

1. Prepaid/debit card only. And a set standard fee plus a 90 minute transfer limit.
2. Where ever possible give the buses priority at junction so as to reduce pinch points. Also ban taxis from the main bus lanes (at least during peak times).
3. Reduce the amount of stops for the more busy and frequent routes, there doesn't need to be a stop every 50 yards.
4. Get a basic diagram of the out there. This also could help illustrating the changes that will be made when the full project is rolled out.

cgcsb · 19-06-2019 5:01pm

Pixel Eater wrote: »

If it is going to be implemented in phases now then they should start will a few basics that would improved the current system. Namely:

1. Prepaid/debit card only. And a set standard fee plus a 90 minute transfer limit.
2. Where ever possible give the buses priority at junction so as to reduce pinch points. Also ban taxis from the main bus lanes (at least during peak times).
3. Reduce the amount of stops for the more busy and frequent routes, there doesn't need to be a stop every 50 yards.
4. Get a basic diagram of the out there. This also could help illustrating the changes that will be made when the full project is rolled out.

1. Yes I think this is still likely to happen, even with bus connects cancelled
2. Not a hope, there's no political appetite for it. We tried this several times, the City Swift plan in the early 2000s done this, bus speed improved drastically, over 30%, it was switched off because motorists complained. Tried junction enforcement at Blackhall place and the system was switched off because there was no appetite for fining motorists. The car is king, it won't change until there's a cull of dinosours in the decision making process.
3. Again, won't happen, no political appetite for telling old Eileen she has an additional 10m walk to get the bus to mass.
4. One of Jarret Walkers most pertinent remarks when he started working on the bus network in Dublin is that nobody had ever managed to map it, in any meaningful way, the network is just to complicated and unusable for a newcommer. Never mind the fact that a bus user is financially chastised by the NTA for changing bus, creating a culture of ; 'I know my route, I'm not paying 2 fares'

Pixel Eater · 19-06-2019 5:29pm

cgcsb wrote: »

1. Yes I think this is still likely to happen, even with bus connects cancelled
2. Not a hope, there's no political appetite for it. We tried this several times, the City Swift plan in the early 2000s done this, bus speed improved drastically, over 30%, it was switched off because motorists complained. Tried junction enforcement at Blackhall place and the system was switched off because there was no appetite for fining motorists. The car is king, it won't change until there's a cull of dinosours in the decision making process.
3. Again, won't happen, no political appetite for telling old Eileen she has an additional 10m walk to get the bus to mass.
4. One of Jarret Walkers most pertinent remarks when he started working on the bus network in Dublin is that nobody had ever managed to map it, in any meaningful way, the network is just to complicated and unusable for a newcommer. Never mind the fact that a bus user is financially chastised by the NTA for changing bus, creating a culture of ; 'I know my route, I'm not paying 2 fares'

Well I can totally understand your cynicism but I believe we need to be positive. While there has been a lot of NIMBYism and weak political will during this debate, there was also a strong pro-public transport voice that emerged. The recent success of the Green Party - the so called 'green wave' testifies to this. With the talk of losing front gardens and cutting down trees, the loss of priority at junctions for cars seems like a small concession compared to those scenarios.

L1011 · 19-06-2019 5:50pm

The flat/transfer fare is *possibly* going to arrive in the December fare decision but the DB ticket machines likely can't handle it and I don't know where that replacement tender is at yet

CatInABox · 19-06-2019 6:11pm

cgcsb wrote: »

2. Not a hope, there's no political appetite for it. We tried this several times, the City Swift plan in the early 2000s done this, bus speed improved drastically, over 30%, it was switched off because motorists complained. Tried junction enforcement at Blackhall place and the system was switched off because there was no appetite for fining motorists. The car is king, it won't change until there's a cull of dinosours in the decision making process.

Just an FYI on this, as far as I can remember, camera enforcement at junctions wasn't covered by any law, so the trial that was done here couldn't actual result in any fines. I believe that they are moving on this now though, it's been coming up again recently.

hmmm · 19-06-2019 7:03pm

devnull wrote: »

Auckland was a different network though, Jarrett Walker was at pains to say that the type of network designed in Dublin, as it's so interlinked, would need to be a big bang approach as everything is connected.

Well then that was completely unrealistic in my view, and should never have been proposed. It's all very well doing a SimCity and drawing ideal bus routes while knocking city blocks in the process, but it was never going to work in Dublin considering the potential difficulties.

Splitting Bus Connects makes lots of sense in my view. Get one corridor including feeder routes working. Show the benefits. Show people that they won't be standing in the rain at an interchange for 30 minutes. Show them the time savings. Then roll it out to the other areas once public support begins to be gained.

Yer Da sells Avon · 19-06-2019 7:56pm

L1011 wrote: »

The flat/transfer fare is *possibly* going to arrive in the December fare decision but the DB ticket machines likely can't handle it and I don't know where that replacement tender is at yet

They can't handle what they're currently supposed to do. At least a quarter of my passengers get away without paying because they take their leap card away from the reader before it's had time to register. It's too time-consuming (not to mention needlessly confrontational) to call them back, so I let them away with it. As far as I'm concerned, they've made a sufficient effort to pay and I've pressed the correct buttons, so it's the NTA's problem, not mine. I'd say it's a bigger problem than deliberate fare evasion, tbh.

And then there's the people who mumble their destination to the driver:

"uuhh huuuh huuh please"

"pardon?"

"uuhh huuuh huuh"

"Right, whatever, that'll be €1.55 then"

The sooner coin transactions are abolished, and flat fares are introduced, the better.

Stephen15 · 19-06-2019 8:25pm

L1011 wrote: »

The flat/transfer fare is *possibly* going to arrive in the December fare decision but the DB ticket machines likely can't handle it and I don't know where that replacement tender is at yet

So that would likely mean that all validation could be done via the right hand validator. The right hand validators can currently handle the transfer 90 discount so I don't see why any flat/transfer fare would be any different. That would assume that DB and GAI make sure the right hand validator always works.

A number of GAI buses I've been on in the last couple of months have had right validators that were out of service meaning all validation had to be done through the driver. This seems to be more prevalent on GAI buses with a high vis jacket sometimes tied over the right hand validator.

Yer Da sells Avon · 19-06-2019 9:30pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

A number of GAI buses I've been on in the last couple of months have had right validators that were out of service meaning all validation had to be done through the driver. This seems to be more prevalent on GAI buses with a high vis jacket sometimes tied over the right hand validator.

That's a regular occurrence, but can usually be solved by pressing the 'reset SCV' button on the dashboard. And if that doesn't work, switching the engine off and resetting the whole bus via the battery master switch almost always does.

Stephen15 · 19-06-2019 9:42pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

That's a regular occurrence, but can usually be solved by pressing the 'reset SCV' button on the dashboard. And if that doesn't work, switching the engine off and resetting the whole bus via the battery master switch almost always does.

The fact that they went to the trouble of tying a high vis jacket over the machine suggests that the issue was already known before leaving depot and they went to the effort to notify passengers that the validator was broken and to go to the driver unless of course the driver was using his/her own initiative to notify passengers.

This just seems to me to be more prevalent on GAI operated services than DB services. I noticed it more with DB in the early days of Leap and right hand validators but less so in the last couple of years.

XPS_Zero · 19-06-2019 10:37pm

LastStop wrote: »

I guess it depends on what's getting phased and in what order.

If you are going to start messing about with peoples ability to move from A to B, withdrawing direct buses to city and then not having corridors in place to reduce the journey time that a two bus trip would take, well I can see a lot of angry people.

I'm surprised to see how many people think phasing is an escape route from Bus connects. They've got to do something, there's been too much hype not to implement something.

They don't. The public has the attention span of a goldfish.
IM OUTRAGED THAT THE BUS NETWORK IS STI--(Rob appears on Love Island)...oh gawd like LOOK at that smooth ripped bod and that bubble butt carved out of st-ONE! He's a greek alpha god and I wanna worship at his temple baby! What does he see in this witch Sarah like she's totally wrong for him he should play the field...my field if you know what I mean. The news cycle moves on and picks up another story. Meanwhile the lack of European standards in our PT services is something she' keeps being baffled about! Baffled! How is it nothing changes loike? But is alaways distracted with some figurative jiggling of the keys in her face.

I remember the reaction to Ireland 2040, Leo was all excited and could not understand the giant "meh!" it was met with. The jaded public knew it would either never happen or only part of it would, Metro totally screwed up, forever, peoples expectations for this stuff. Back in the distant mists of time there was a Metro for Dublin WEST on the cards, and a Luas Line F where they even had resident meetings to decide on it's ideal route through west Dublin...none of it ever happened, and nobody in Lucan is asking where their Luas went because they are jaded and those not engaged enough to be jaded (most people) are easily distracted. Luas line B2 abruptly stops in Cherrywood even though it was meant to go through the bits of Bray not connected to the DART and down to the DART station - never happened. Even when they finally put in bus stops to stop there making it a proper interchange there are no shelters or timers, this is th ekind of half assed crap that makes people see proposed BusConnects interchanges and think no im gonna end up waiting in the lashings of rain for a bus that will never come then 4 of them come at the same time. Experience has jaded the Irish public and the rest are too dim to notice

Dyr · 20-06-2019 11:53am

cgcsb wrote: »

So the buses will continue to be stuck behind the slowest cyclist and cyclists will face the same danger they do now. How is that better than the current plan, killing two birds with one stone?

You wanna improve journey times then automate fares and actually enforce the extensive bus lane system that we already have (something Bus Connects studiously avoided mentioning

)

You know, the things that will make the most substantial improvement in journey times but don't require ripping up 200 Km's worth of city.

cgcsb · 20-06-2019 11:56am

L1011 wrote: »

The flat/transfer fare is *possibly* going to arrive in the December fare decision but the DB ticket machines likely can't handle it and I don't know where that replacement tender is at yet

There are DB ticket machines?

cgcsb · 20-06-2019 11:58am

CatInABox wrote: »

Just an FYI on this, as far as I can remember, camera enforcement at junctions wasn't covered by any law, so the trial that was done here couldn't actual result in any fines. I believe that they are moving on this now though, it's been coming up again recently.

That camera was put up in June 2015, so happy 4th birthday. Like I said no interest in this by decision makers.

cgcsb · 20-06-2019 12:03pm

Bambi wrote: »

You wanna improve journey times then automate fares and actually enforce the extensive bus lane system that we already have (something Bus Connects studiously avoided mentioning )

You know, the things that will make the most substantial improvement in journey times but don't require ripping up 200 Km's worth of city.

You've obviously just taken a random disliking to cycle lanes, whatever dude.

L1011 · 20-06-2019 12:49pm

cgcsb wrote: »

There are DB ticket machines?

Well yes, if you mean TVMs there's at least one (Dublin airport). I'm referring to the wayfarers

XPS_Zero · 20-06-2019 11:06pm

Bambi wrote: »

You wanna improve journey times then automate fares and actually enforce the extensive bus lane system that we already have (something Bus Connects studiously avoided mentioning )

You know, the things that will make the most substantial improvement in journey times but don't require ripping up 200 Km's worth of city.

This is tinkering around the edges BS that wont' be enough, we need major STRUCTURAL change to handle the population hikes that are coming.

The lack of proper segregated cycling paths results in DEATHs, deaths of real 3d human beings with families and friends and lives and futures, so I don't give 10 shades of sh1t if saving those lives and preventing the trauma of the drivers who hit them means GAWD FORBID your trees outside your house need to be removed and new ones/same ones replanted slightly closer or in a different spot. Boo f---g hoo.

Dyr · 21-06-2019 8:57pm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

This is tinkering around the edges BS that wont' be enough, we need major STRUCTURAL change to handle the population hikes that are coming.

The lack of proper segregated cycling paths results in DEATHs, deaths of real 3d human beings with families and friends and lives and futures, so I don't give 10 shades of sh1t if saving those lives and preventing the trauma of the drivers who hit them means GAWD FORBID your trees outside your house need to be removed and new ones/same ones replanted slightly closer or in a different spot. Boo f---g hoo.

I dont have trees outside my house. Dont have a road either

I think you need to calm down a bit. How many cyclists died in the Dublin area in 2018? Only two wasn't it? Both of whom killed were killed in collisions with....trucks. Margin of error stuff there statistically given the population size

You wouldn't be ratcheting up the emotive rhetoric because your argument is paper thin,would you? Compare that to the amount of pedestrians killed in Dublin and the NTAs policy of making pedestrian areas narrower and narrower and forcing them to cross more roads at every junction like mice in a maze. I mean it's all about protecting lives isn't it matey? Suprised this isn't a big issue for you

We need to widen the roads to deal with a population boom, funny though our birth rates are pretty stable and any increase gives us over a decade to adjust

I suppose we could blow the arse out of our cities housing and infrastructure by trying to cope with a flood of immigration, or we could just do the sensible thing and *gasp* control immigration

None of which have anything to do with improving bus services in Dublin. Just like those expensive cycle paths that the NTA decided to doughnut into the Bus Connects project. Big mistake that, shouldn't have tried to make a mug of Joe Public

donvito99 · 21-06-2019 9:00pm

Bambi wrote: »

None of which have anything to do with improving bus services in Dublin. Just like those expensive cycle paths that the NTA decided to doughnut into the Bus Connects project. Big mistake that, shouldn't have tried to make a mug of Joe Public

So when are the cycle paths to be built? Finish Bus Connects for buses having dug up all the roads anyway, grand. Then no sooner has the last section of asphalt been layed, up tools again for the bike lanes?

Continuous cycle lanes (as proposed by BC) would be an outstanding option for the commute.

Dyr · 21-06-2019 9:39pm

donvito99 wrote: »

So when are the cycle paths to be built? Finish Bus Connects for buses having dug up all the roads anyway, grand. Then no sooner has the last section of asphalt been layed, up tools again for the bike lanes?

Continuous cycle lanes (as proposed by BC) would be an outstanding option for the commute.

I imagine it will be when the NTA convinces Joe Public that the considerable cost, disruption, loss of amenity, property and pedestrian space is worth it

Or they can try again to find a way to try sneak them under the radar....

donvito99 · 21-06-2019 9:43pm

Bambi wrote: »

I imagine it will be when the NTA convinces Joe Public that the considerable cost, disruption, loss of amenity, property and pedestrian space is worth it

Or they can try again to find a way to try sneak them under the radar....

But in the case of say, Rathgar Road, if you are widening to accommodate another bus lane, why would you stop short of putting in a cycle lane?

Spanish Eyes · 21-06-2019 9:47pm

No one will be happy. We are a nation of moaners and me feiners. Sadly few see beyond their front garden. Call the council, get a group to protest. Ribbons on trees etc.

This is replicated every time some innovation is mooted. But few see the bigger picture. I doubt it will change much.

sharper · 21-06-2019 9:55pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

We are a nation of moaners and me feiners. Sadly few see beyond their front garden. Call the council, get a group to protest. Ribbons on trees etc.

Wait until the general election comes along and FF plus the Green Party criticise the government for not improving public transport despite having proposed nothing and opposed everything themselves.

Zebra3 · 22-06-2019 12:52am

sharper wrote: »

Wait until the general election comes along and FF plus the Green Party criticise the government for not improving public transport despite having proposed nothing and opposed everything themselves.

And despite them being the two parties that burnt billions on zombie banks.

A fraction of which could have sorted out Dublin’s transport problems for the next 50 years.

LeinsterDub · 22-06-2019 12:58am

Bambi wrote: »

Just like those expensive cycle paths that the NTA decided to doughnut into the Bus Connects project. Big mistake that, shouldn't have tried to make a mug of Joe Public

What percentage of the bus connects plan is going towards cycling?

LeinsterDub · 22-06-2019 1:02am

sharper wrote: »

Wait until the general election comes along and FF plus the Green Party criticise the government for not improving public transport despite having proposed nothing and opposed everything themselves.

What have the greens opposed apart from the Luas upgrade and even at that it was more Ryan than the party ?

L1011 · 22-06-2019 1:05am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What have the greens opposed apart from the Luas upgrade and even at that it was more Ryan than the party ?

Ryan's crayons on Metrolink may have holed it below the waterline.

sharper · 22-06-2019 8:39am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What have the greens opposed apart from the Luas upgrade and even at that it was more Ryan than the party ?

I'm not criticising people that vote Green or even the average party member but Ryan is the leader of the party and represents it, he doesn't get to oppose a transport project and just be himself while doing it.

The party in general also joined in with the "Save the trees" portion of opposition to Bus Connects. Yes it makes a more sense given their remit but getting people into public transport will help the environment far more than any amount of mature trees the NTA could ever cut down.

If half the population are going to oppose bus lanes because they replace car lanes and the other half will oppose it because we lose trees then where do we end up? The status quo only worse because there's no such thing as the status quo. Things either move forward because of good planning or they're moving backwards.

The main political blow here is Shane Ross. He's totally worthless as transport minister. The NTA did not deliver this plan in a politically savvy way and that's ok because they're not supposed to be. The political side of things should have been handled by Ross but he's neither interested nor competent to do it.

In the US they talk about body cams for police officers so the footage can be renewed, I want the same here for government minister because I have no clue what he does with his day.

BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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