BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

L1011

D14Rugby wrote: »

If they had any sense whatsoever they would do that and introduce the 90 minute "free" travel system now and get people used to the idea of switching bus but as with the whole bus connects plan, right idea, absolutely god awful execution.

Still an outside chance the December fare determination will provide this. Looking less likely with no new ticket machines

Qrt

Evil_g wrote: »

Thanks.

So it looks like the 10-15 min F3 service from Stannaway directly to town and all orbitals has been scrapped...and the current 83 is being replaced by the 15 which still goes half way around the world to get into town, but just runs less frequently.

Wonderful.

I quite liked the original plan, but after a period of public consultation they've been prevailed upon to make the current service worse.

Hopefully this is just a plan to get the infrastructure in place, then kill the granny busses one at a time.

I don’t know where you’re getting the impression all the orbitals have been scrapped. It says in the summary post that the only one being scrapped is the N6.

devnull

L1011 wrote: »

Still an outside chance the December fare determination will provide this. Looking less likely with no new ticket machines

Plus there still has to be agreements worked out with the operators as to who gets what revenue in these circumstances as Dublin Bus for instance are dependent on farebox revenue from their services.

Spanish Eyes

Thanks for all the updates.

The reality is that those affected may not realise the changes involved, even if they are for their benefit locally.

But anyway most people drive and don't give a fig really.

Evil_g

Qrt wrote: »

I don’t know where you’re getting the impression all the orbitals have been scrapped. It says in the summary post that the only one being scrapped is the N6.

That wasn't what I was trying to say.

What I mean is that they've scrapped the element of the F3 which would have brought me straight to town, and linked me up with all the orbitals.

The 15 will bring me on a magical mystery tour.

Evil_g

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Thanks for all the updates.

The reality is that those affected may not realise the changes involved, even if they are for their benefit locally.

But anyway most people drive and don't give a fig really.

From the NTA's perspective, these granny busses whilst expensive (and plain stupid in most cases) significantly reduce the amount of valid complaints that can be raised.

Independents 4 no change whatsoever (and elements of most other parties in fairness), can no longer court favour with Charles O'Carroll Kelly who stands to lose parking for his third car, by claiming to be standing up for wheelchair users who can't change busses.

There will be three categories of people left opposing this now:

(a) Traders who may be temporarily disrupted, but who arguably stand to gain hugely when the work is complete;

(b) Homeowners who believe they should simultaneously have all of the advantages of living walking distance from the centre of a capital city, all of the advantages of living in a rural village, and that 25 grand per square metre is not adequate compensation for the loss of a car parking space; and

(c) People who mistakenly believe that every tree within 20 metres of every bus route is going to be removed.

And if politicians want to appeal to these constituencies they'll have to do so openly.

The debate should be a lot clearer now (you'd hope).

Dyr

Whats with the granny bus term?

Qrt

Evil_g wrote: »

That wasn't what I was trying to say.

What I mean is that they've scrapped the element of the F3 which would have brought me straight to town, and linked me up with all the orbitals.

The 15 will bring me on a magical mystery tour.

Ah right, I get you know. All I can say is that there's still a round of public consultation due (god help us) for these plans (which will probably change before they're published [why wouldn't they just publish them now if complete?]) so it's not the end of the road. Alternatively, we can just take solace in our ability to walk to the nearest spine (and if you can't, no malice intended, just saying figuratively).

Personally, my area still seems to be gaining an awful lot, so I'm not too fussed. I'm blessed with the Luas, sadly not all of us are afforded the same.

Evil_g

Bambi wrote: »

Whats with the granny bus term?

There's a perception that many of the objections to replacing lightly used services that operate illogical routes, with faster services that offer more destinations, but require a change of buses, were raised by people who are set in their ways, afraid of change, and misinformed.

It's ageist, and perhaps sexist, but this persona conjures up an image of a granny to some people.

So to satisfy these people, it appears that the NTA have decided to continue operating lightly used services that run on illogical routes, even if this results in a poorer service than today. Granny busses.

Qrt

Bambi wrote: »

Whats with the granny bus term?

Most of the areas which were planned to only be served by local buses tended to be the product of 50s/60s/70s sprawl, so naturally the population is older on average.

The elderly were also used by some as a weapon against the plan, even though some experienced net gains (my own grandmother would have had a bus straight to her local post office for example).

Tarabuses

Bambi wrote: »

Whats with the granny bus term?

Evil_g wrote: »

There's a perception that many of the objections to replacing lightly used services that operate illogical routes, with faster services that offer more destinations, but require a change of buses, were raised by people who are set in their ways, afraid of change, and misinformed.

It's ageist, and perhaps sexist, but this persona conjures up an image of a granny to some people.

So to satisfy these people, it appears that the NTA have decided to continue operating lightly used services that run on illogical routes, even if this results in a poorer service than today. Granny busses.

A disparaging term nonetheless and one which, hopefully, can be dropped from this conversation.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

Plus there still has to be agreements worked out with the operators as to who gets what revenue in these circumstances as Dublin Bus for instance are dependent on farebox revenue from their services.

I could see a situation where the 90 minute fare is rolled out first on buses and then to IE and Luas perhaps even a flat 90 minute fare on bus and Luas then extended to IE.

I would also imagine that the 2.25 and 2.50 will be merged into one flat by the end of the year which will a benefit in itself meaning most Leap users will be using the right hand validator to tag on reducing dwell times.

devnull

Anne Graham was taking calls on Newstalk, only 15 mins and not all related to BusConnects, but parts are:
https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-newstalk-breakfast/phoneinnt-anne-graham-nta-ceo

KD345

Thanks cgcsb for posting the update, there’s a lot of info there.

I’m impressed with these changes and think they address many of the concerns people had. They deal with the pockets of Dublin which were losing a service. The rumoured increase to express routes will be welcomed too.

It’ll be interesting to see what the frequencies are. This will be the big test. Ultimately we’re asking people to change their travel habits, the routes and pattern people take will be the big test of capacity.

I don’t agree with the term ‘granny routes’. We shouldn’t label any type of bus passenger in a negative way. The suggestion that existing routes like the 27a, 79 and 122 only carry OAPs is wrong.

D14Rugby

L1011 wrote: »

Still an outside chance the December fare determination will provide this. Looking less likely with no new ticket machines

Don't think new machines should be needed? Surely its a software thing as opposed to hardware.

devnull

D14Rugby wrote: »

Don't think new machines should be needed? Surely its a software thing as opposed to hardware.

The model of ticket machine DB are using is approx 20 years old and can barely cope with functionality it has now.

Last Stop

Evil_g wrote: »

From the NTA's perspective, these granny busses whilst expensive (and plain stupid in most cases) significantly reduce the amount of valid complaints that can be raised.

Independents 4 no change whatsoever (and elements of most other parties in fairness), can no longer court favour with Charles O'Carroll Kelly who stands to lose parking for his third car, by claiming to be standing up for wheelchair users who can't change busses.

There will be three categories of people left opposing this now:

(a) Traders who may be temporarily disrupted, but who arguably stand to gain hugely when the work is complete;

(b) Homeowners who believe they should simultaneously have all of the advantages of living walking distance from the centre of a capital city, all of the advantages of living in a rural village, and that 25 grand per square metre is not adequate compensation for the loss of a car parking space; and

(c) People who mistakenly believe that every tree within 20 metres of every bus route is going to be removed.

And if politicians want to appeal to these constituencies they'll have to do so openly.

The debate should be a lot clearer now (you'd hope).

The routes was never the show stopper. The CBCs are what kills it and will continue to. There is no way they will get planning on their current designs.

FWIW, the routes only work with the CBCs. Without them, the network redesign can’t deliver on its proposals

BonnieSituation

Tarabuses wrote: »

A disparaging term nonetheless and one which, hopefully, can be dropped from this conversation.

It's rightly disparaging. I have no time for the few, regardless of age, screwing the many. Which this cohort do all the time. Meanwhile those of us who use PT at rush hour have to deal with College Street and Green.

D14Rugby

devnull wrote: »

The model of ticket machine DB are using is approx 20 years old and can barely cope with functionality it has now.

Yeah but while I don't know exactly what hardware or systems are in place surely the scanner on the right just reads the card, matches and tells the system its been scanned and the system does the rest? All you'd need to do it have it timestamp each scan which I think it already does and check if that time is within 90 minutes. I'm fairly confident the current hardware should be capable of it.

Their scanners for leap cards definitely aren't 20 years old anyway so just make it a leap card exclusive of even just have the driver read the physical tickets.

TheChrisD

cgcsb wrote: »

[the large post with all the details]

For anyone who can't quite visualise the changes listed in the big post... here's a custom map: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1ilVsfzuzRQ7flK6arBnXwmllnuK1uqBa

Think I have everything reported in there. Only missing the locals because the fate of most of them has not yet been reported bar my own one ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

r93kaey5p2izun

Is there a proposed new route or changed route to serve the Celbridge Road (R404) in Leixlip now the C4 won't be going that way? Especially with planning granted for new housing at the Wonderful Barn. The current 66B is not great but it's certainly better than nothing.

AlekSmart

D14Rugby wrote: »

Yeah but while I don't know exactly what hardware or systems are in place surely the scanner on the right just reads the card, matches and tells the system its been scanned and the system does the rest? All you'd need to do it have it timestamp each scan which I think it already does and check if that time is within 90 minutes. I'm fairly confident the current hardware should be capable of it.

Their scanners for leap cards definitely aren't 20 years old anyway so just make it a leap card exclusive of even just have the driver read the physical tickets.

The current Wayfarer is easily capable of dealing with the 90 minute element,in fact it already does in respect of the 90 minute €1 discount applied to current transfer journeys (across ALL TfI modes :eek: )

The main issue with the current system is the default to cash fares and constant requirement to switch between them,even though Cashless accounts for c.85% of Transactions.

If the NTA holds its nerve,the December review should go a long way towards allowing the current TIM to function at something approaching 20th Century levels.

L1011

D14Rugby wrote: »

Yeah but while I don't know exactly what hardware or systems are in place surely the scanner on the right just reads the card, matches and tells the system its been scanned and the system does the rest? All you'd need to do it have it timestamp each scan which I think it already does and check if that time is within 90 minutes. I'm fairly confident the current hardware should be capable of it.

Their scanners for leap cards definitely aren't 20 years old anyway so just make it a leap card exclusive of even just have the driver read the physical tickets.

The machine needs to be able to work out whether someone is to be charged or not, store details of who has been charged and so on. They really don't have the processing power or storage to do this already yet alone another layer of complexity

It can't just take notes and charge later as the transaction has to actually be written to the card and anyway it hasn't got the storage to keep track

Polar101

The new version doesn't seem completely horrible. I hope they can manage to implement the "spine" routes - if we have that in place then the "local" lines can be tweaked later. The current system is so slow that ANY change is likely to be an improvement. It was just so depressing to see all the uninformed politicians going on about "BUSCONNECT AXES LOCAL BUS SERVICES".

cgcsb

TheChrisD wrote: »

For anyone who can't quite visualise the changes listed in the big post... here's a custom map: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1ilVsfzuzRQ7flK6arBnXwmllnuK1uqBa

Think I have everything reported in there. Only missing the locals because the fate of most of them has not yet been reported bar my own one ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's impressive work. I can confirm that's pretty accurate. I'll provide more info on locals and expresses when I get the chance.

AlmightyCushion

L1011 wrote: »

The machine needs to be able to work out whether someone is to be charged or not, store details of who has been charged and so on. They really don't have the processing power or storage to do this already yet alone another layer of complexity

It can't just take notes and charge later as the transaction has to actually be written to the card and anyway it hasn't got the storage to keep track

As AlekSmart points out above it does this for the €1 discount. How can it manage a €1 discount but not handle not charging under the same circumstances?

cgcsb

I had cause to cycle through Pearse st, College st, Westmoreland St and the south quays in the evening rush a few days ago. This would be an unusual journey for me. It was absolute chaos. Cars just driving around, for significant distance in the bus lanes, cars parked in cycle lanes, Left hand drive tour buses trying to pull out, cyclists weaving in and out of cars and going up on footpaths to get past and pedestrians getting fed up waiting and walking out on front of buses.
Cars driving from Pearse to College st are doing so illegally but they are numerous and they will beep at you if they think you aren't cycling fast enough, and they do this in full view of Pearse St Garda station.

This needs to be fixed, there are too many buses using this area, which Bus Connects will partially fix. Cars have completely lost the run of themselves, they drive and park wherever they like, no consequences. Pedestrians have to wait for long periods to walk a few metres and there is no provision for cycling.

L1011

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

As AlekSmart points out above it does this for the €1 discount. How can it manage a €1 discount but not handle not charging under the same circumstances?

Rather different calculation basis and realistically the machines are at their limit.

LeinsterDub

devnull wrote: »

The model of ticket machine DB are using is approx 20 years old and can barely cope with functionality it has now.

I'd imagine the 90 minute ticket will come when leap is relaunched

Stephen15

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'd imagine the 90 minute ticket will come when leap is relaunched

When's Leap due to be relaunched