BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

tom1ie

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

QBC's have proved that it's doable. All they have to do is force through some of the infrastructure changes and 30 minutes is possible. They may have to implement one way routes in some cases but ultimately sw Dublin is flat, property values are relatively low, and there aren't major heritage areas. It's not like they're trying to drive a dual carriageway through malahide and dalkey.

Really? Rathfarnham, rathgar, Harold’s Cross, the well known affordable housing areas lol!:pac:

Hurrache

Qrt wrote: »

We must be talking about different South West Dublins then... Rathmines/Harold's Cross, Rathgar, Terenure... they're not exactly cheap places.

That's not south west Dublin, south west Dublin is the Tallaght/Clondalkin environs.

Amirani

Hurrache wrote: »

That's not south west Dublin, south west Dublin is the Tallaght/Clondalkin environs.

Tallaght yeah, but Clondalkin is just "West Dublin" surely? Calling it South is misleading. Plus, the initial poster referred to inside the M50, so both of these fall outside that.

South-West Dublin in this case is surely; Western Rathfarnham, Ballyroan, Ballyboden, Templeogue, Knocklyon. Then Tallaght/Firhouse on the other side of the M50. Could perhaps include parts of Kimmage/Terenure and Walkinstown/Greenhills. There's a Dail constituency with the exact name, including those areas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_South-West_(D%C3%A1il_constituency)

MJohnston

Hurrache wrote: »

That's not south west Dublin, south west Dublin is the Tallaght/Clondalkin environs.

The conversation was derived from my specific mention of "south-west quadrant of the inner-M50 area". Harold's Cross, Terenure, and Rathgar would definitely fit into that definition, Rathmines is debatable but it's close enough.


Think that's where the confusion is coming from here.

Hurrache

Ok, I missed the inner quadrant of the M50 bit.

Qrt

MJohnston wrote: »

The conversation was derived from my specific mention of "south-west quadrant of the inner-M50 area". Harold's Cross, Terenure, and Rathgar would definitely fit into that definition, Rathmines is debatable but it's close enough.


Think that's where the confusion is coming from here.

Amirani wrote: »

Tallaght yeah, but Clondalkin is just "West Dublin" surely? Calling it South is misleading. Plus, the initial poster referred to inside the M50, so both of these fall outside that.

South-West Dublin in this case is surely; Western Rathfarnham, Ballyroan, Ballyboden, Templeogue, Knocklyon. Then Tallaght/Firhouse on the other side of the M50. Could perhaps include parts of Kimmage/Terenure and Walkinstown/Greenhills. There's a Dail constituency with the exact name, including those areas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_South-West_(D%C3%A1il_constituency)

Hurrache wrote: »

That's not south west Dublin, south west Dublin is the Tallaght/Clondalkin environs.

I wouldn't call Clondalkin south at all, just good ol' wesht. My rationale for Rathmines being southwest is that, in terms of buses, an awful awful lot of buses to South West Dublin go through it. There's no teleporter from Town to Rathgar. The south-west Dublin term is nearly always in the context of BusConnects and a hypothetical metro, and it'd be very surprising if they left Rathmines out of them.

dublinman1990

I read on the IT website that Budget 2019 is giving extra money for new buses for the BusConnects programme in Dublin.

The total spend on BusConnects & other things is an extra €286 million bringing it to €1.4 billion.

Budget 2019: State to spend €286m on transport and infrastructure - New buses for Dublin and ports to be upgraded

Barry O'Halloran - Irish Times

The Government plans to spend €286 million on roads and other infrastructure next year.

The money is part of an overall €1.4 billion extra that the State will spend on roads, schools, universities and other public projects next year, bringing total Government infrastructure investment to €7.3 billion.

Minister for Finance Paschal Donohoe had earmarked an extra €1.26 billion last year for spending on roads and other transport between 2018 and 2021. “Today, I am announcing that €286 million of this will be made available next year,” he said in this speech.

Mr Donohoe said the Government would spend this on projects such as the Collooney to Castlebaldwin road in Co Sligo, the Dunkettle interchange in Cork city, and work on Knock airport’s runway.

The Minister added that the Government would provide an extra €40 million to repair regional and local roads and footpaths.

He said the Government was boosting public transport by providing new vehicles under Dublin’s Bus Connects programme and extending the trams on the capital’s Luas light rail service.

New runway

Mr Donohoe also noted that State airports’ company DAA was spending €320 million on adding a new runway at Dublin.

The DAA will pay for this and other extensions of its facilities from its own resources. The Government gives cash to regional airports to fund infrastructure and security.

At the same time, State-owned ports including Dublin, Cork and Shannon Foynes were spending €587 million on their facilities.

The Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport’s total budget for next year will be €2.36 billion, made up of €755 million in current spending and €1.61 billion for investing in infrastructure.

Transport spending focuses on several key areas, including civil aviation, and updating the National Civil Aviation Security Programme.

In land transport, taxpayers are funding projects such as Bus Connects, the planned metro linking Dublin city centre with its airport, and the expansion of services such as the Luas.

National and local roads

The Government is also spending money on national and local roads, including the Naas bypass in Co Kildare and the New Ross to Gorey scheme in Co Wexford, which will be finished next year. It has also begun planning the Cork-Limerick road.

Shane McSweeney, partner and head of government and infrastructure at accountants EY, welcomed the pledge to spend an extra €1.4 billion on infrastructure but warned that work on key projects should start immediately.

“We need to ensure that additional infrastructure projects are prioritised in a manner that maximises the long-term sustainable economic benefits available,” Mr McSweeney argued.

He added that the Government should not turn the infrastructure spending tap off in an economic downturn as previous administrations have done.

Construction Industry Federation head of economic policy, Jeanette Mair, argued that the timely implementation of the National Planning Framework and National Development Plan was essential in key areas such as housing, transport, health and education.

“It’s essential now that both the State’s apparatus and the construction industry have the capacity required to deliver on these ambitious strategies,” she said.

Varadkar also mentioned on the RTÉ 9 O'Clock news tonight that Budget 2019 will remove a measure of relief for PSO operators buying diesel buses for all PSO bus services in the state. It will kick in from the middle of 2019. This means that low emission/hybrid buses will become a greater reality for us when discussing the implementation of BusConnects for people living in Dublin in the future.

Stephen15

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I heard on the RTÉ 9 O'Clock news that the Budget removed a measure of relief for PSO operators buying diesel buses for all PSO bus services in the state. It will kick in from the middle of 2019. This means that low emission/hybrid buses will become a greater reality for us when discussing the implementation of BusConnects in the future.

I thought DB are due to get a few on trial before the years out.

devnull

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I heard on the RTÉ 9 O'Clock news that the Budget removed a measure of relief for PSO operators buying diesel buses for all PSO bus services in the state. It will kick in from the middle of 2019. This means that low emission/hybrid buses will become a greater reality for us when discussing the implementation of BusConnects in the future.

Well considering the operators don't buy the vehicles anymore and the state buys the vehicles now, I doubt it's going to bother them too much anymore!

john boye

dublinman1990 wrote: »

This means that low emission/hybrid buses will become a greater reality for us when discussing the implementation of BusConnects for people living in Dublin in the future.

How will they affect BusConnects one way or the other?

MJohnston

How many km would your average Dublin Bus cover in a given day? Wondering how feasible electric buses would be any time soon.

Stephen15

MJohnston wrote: »

How many km would your average Dublin Bus cover in a given day? Wondering how feasible electric buses would be any time soon.

For starters DB depots would need charger points installed maybe even some terminuses. I believe the vast majority of electric buses being built are all single deckers and not many double deckers. I would also be sceptical of the build quality of most of these buses considering the vast majority are coming from China.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

For starters DB depots would need charger points installed maybe even some terminuses. I believe the vast majority of electric buses being built are all single deckers and not many double deckers. I would also be sceptical of the build quality of most of these buses considering the vast majority are coming from China.

I don't think electric buses are all that there yet, some are okay, others have been very bad. I know of three countries (Poland, UK, Germany) were electric buses were tried and the operators had no end of problems. In the Polish case (City Smile, by AMZ who are better known for small tank like vehicles, of all things) they were decommissioned after less than a year and replaced with older conventional vehicles and barely saw service after that.

I'm not saying electric buses cannot be made and in the past 12-18 months there has been more encouraging, but the technology is a long way away from being proven and the build quality of some of the Chinese ones leaves something to be desired.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

I'm not saying electric buses cannot be made and in the past 12-18 months there has been more encouraging, but the technology is a long way away from being proven and the build quality of some of the Chinese ones leaves something to be desired.

I don't like the look of those new London tri-axle electric buses. They look very cheap and are meant to have a lot of safety flaws. The general consensus I get is that they are like a coach which has been converted into a bus. As much the LTs/New Routemasters were a waste of money these buses are a big downgrade as they replacing them with these tri-axles on certain routes.

MJohnston

Munich just ordered a bunch of electric buses from a Dutch company, so I figure they must be getting fairly reliable:
https://www.electrive.com/2018/10/08/40-electric-buses-headed-for-munich/

And as Vox point out, you don't have to buy a Chinese electric bus to get the benefits of them driving down prices:
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/4/17/17239368/china-investment-solar-electric-buses-cost

Really useful chart:

Hotblack Desiato

Stephen15 wrote: »

I thought DB are due to get a few on trial before the years out.

They had two on trial before, didn't seem to go well.

bk

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They had two on trial before, didn't seem to go well.

Though since then, London Bus have rolled out some 3,000 Hybrid buses, so they are definitely pretty reliable now.

As for full EV buses, I believe the technology is definitely there now for single deckers, double deckers are a much more difficult.

The issue is where do you put the batteries. It is relatively straight forward on a single decker, you just put it on the roof. That obviously isn't possible for a double decker, it would make them too tall and top heavy. They have tried putting batteries in the back downstairs, but then you lose seating space and you make them back heavy, so far for ideal.

For Double Deckers, I suspect they will need to design an entire new bus chassis from the ground up, specifically designed to be an EV, rather then the current approach of just throwing batteries in a chassis designed for Diesel.

BTW EV buses will only work IMO when they have enough range to do a full days operation without needing to recharge and just charge overnight in the depot. All those ideas about recharging at bus stops, wireless charging, etc. are nonsense that won't go anywhere. Fortunately do to EV cars taking off big time, battery prices are falling rapidly and it shouldn't be an issue for a bus to have enough battery for a full days running.

Having said all that, from the budget it sounds like they might be going for Biogas/CNG buses.

Tickityboo

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They had two on trial before, didn't seem to go well.

I know one of them burnt to the ground when it went back.(might have been a hybrid)

MJohnston

^ this is why my original question was about average daily range of a Dublin Bus

dublinman1990

Tickityboo wrote: »

I know one of them burnt to the ground when it went back.(might have been a hybrid)

Yep. That bus was based in Summerhill Garage on the 16 a few years ago. It is known as WH1 if you're a bus enthusiast.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

Though since then, London Bus have rolled out some 3,000 Hybrid buses, so they are definitely pretty reliable now.

Hybrid buses should really be trailed first. When DB was first buying low floor double deckers they trailed a few from a few different manufacturers to see which one worked best.

As for full EV buses, I believe the technology is definitely there now for single deckers, double deckers are a much more difficult.

The issue is where do you put the batteries. It is relatively straight forward on a single decker, you just put it on the roof. That obviously isn't possible for a double decker, it would make them too tall and top heavy. They have tried putting batteries in the back downstairs, but then you lose seating space and you make them back heavy, so far for ideal.

For Double Deckers, I suspect they will need to design an entire new bus chassis from the ground up, specifically designed to be an EV, rather then the current approach of just throwing batteries in a chassis designed for Diesel.

I have heard that an EV single decker weighs nearly as much as a double decker which isin't exactly ideal and batteries on the roof may effect the bus height for going under low bridges which is often the reason why a route uses single deckers rather than double decker buses.

I think for EV to be viable in the long they need to weigh the same with the same engine space taken up by the batteries as on a diesel bus. No comprises on weight, height or passenger space.

Qrt

Can we not just bring back trolleybuses? I'd love them

Hotblack Desiato

Qrt wrote: »

Can we not just bring back trolleybuses? I'd love them

Yes, they cunningly combine (some of) the infrastructure costs and all of the lack of operational flexibility of trams, along with the low capacity and higher staff costs of buses

MJohnston

San Francisco has them, and they're absolutely horrible.

BonnieSituation

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Yes, they cunningly combine (some of) the infrastructure costs and all of the lack of operational flexibility of trams, along with the low capacity and higher staff costs of buses

Experienced my first trolley bus at the weekend in Bratislava. I'm still none the wiser of the point of them.

One thing I did like about them was the 3 or 4 doors all opening at the same time and NO driver interaction. Validators at every door AND request stops which was decent. Nice screens spaced out throughout all buses to show next stop etc.

Sam Russell

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Yes, they cunningly combine (some of) the infrastructure costs and all of the lack of operational flexibility of trams, along with the low capacity and higher staff costs of buses

The Dublin trams of 100 years ago bear no relationship to th Luas trams. Why would modern trolleybuses bear any resemblance to trolleybuses of 50 years ago?

They could be rubber wheeled Luas trams with overhead electric supply.

L1011

They're still being retired across the world as ineffective; the small new builds and extensions do not outweigh the retirements. By comparison there is no wide-scale tram retirements; I think Amsterdam may have dropped one line a few years ago though. Plenty of new lines, new systems and extensions going on - even Blackpool got an extension!

If you're going to put in wiring (twin wiring as no ability to return via rails, so more expensive), high capacity stop infrastructure, priority measures etc - just put in rails too.

circular flexing

Turns out Shane Ross doesn't like the plan after all

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ross-complains-to-nta-over-reform-plans-to-dublin-s-bus-services-1.3659073

Seth Brundle

circular flexing wrote: »

Turns out Shane Ross doesn't like the plan after all

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ross-complains-to-nta-over-reform-plans-to-dublin-s-bus-services-1.3659073

The other thing I noticed from that article was that seemingly the Minister for Transport thinks the majority if roads around the country are not safe for pedestrians to use...

The Backglen Road from Lamb Doyle’s pub is not pedestrianised and “so is not safe for pedestrians to use”, the Minister for Transport said. “Residents fear they will have to resort to using their cars.”

LeinsterDub

circular flexing wrote: »

Turns out Shane Ross doesn't like the plan after all

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ross-complains-to-nta-over-reform-plans-to-dublin-s-bus-services-1.3659073

An other word for complained is consulted. As in consulted during a consultation period.