Terrorist Attack in Manchester (Read MOD WARNING in OP Updated 24/05/2017))

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Purely is the wrong word but it's all too often that people like you and Blanch152 are in complete denial that causes have effects, are in denial of reality, and have a naive understanding of human nature.

"It should by now be self-evident that by attacking Muslims overseas, you will occasionally spawn twisted and, as we saw yesterday, even murderous hatred at home. We need to recognise that, given the continued role our government has chosen to play in the US imperial project in the Middle East, we are lucky that these attacks are so few and far between."

Joe Glenton [Former British Soldier. 2013]

Oh no, I do understand human nature and the twisted nature of it. There are people out there who believe terrorist violence killing innocent people is an appropriate response to certain situations. In my opinion, it is not the situations that are the problem, it is the people who believe the terrorist-type repsonse is ok.


Twisted people who commit terrorist acts have always been able to find a cause to hide behind. In fact, when naive humans put forward a "cause", many twisted people can get attracted to it and direct it towards a path of violence. There are examples of this happening in history where peaceful civil disobedience descends into terrorist-type violence.

Roger Hassenforder

wonderfullife wrote: »

Only a kids concert? Try the Colorado Springs Terrorist, more recent.

... "evaluations that determined Dear to be delusional, the judge in the case ruled in May 2016 that Dear was incompetent to stand trial and ordered him indefinitely confined to a Colorado state mental hospital."

Just sayin...

blanch152

ilkhanid wrote: »

It's strange that one never hears about the plentiful suicide bombings and massacres-so common now they often go unremarked-never cause any radicalisation.

I agree, strange that following 9/11 or the Tube bombings or the more recent sequence of bombings in France, that young Westerners haven't become radicalised and are blowing themselves up all over the Middle East.

kopite386

15th victim is Eilidh MacLeod, 14 years old.

She was another on the 'missing' list - at this rate it seems everyone on the list is dead, and as I saw yesterday if you add up the missing and the dead it equals 22.
Hopefully it is just a coincidence but so far it's not looking good

Danzy

testaccount123 wrote: »

To be fair I heard on the radio this morning that the Libyan community in Manchester had reported these guys to police

It is worth also pointing out that about 17 people from that Mosque have fought with Jihadis.

It had senior people who are linked to Al Qaeda.

Are they all at it no, should the Mosque be closed down, yes.

The Libyan Community is a hot bed of militancy, are they all, no. Is there enough that that small community in Manchester is a national threat for over there - Yes.

testaccount123

Danzy wrote: »

It is worth also pointing out that about 17 people from that Mosque have fought with Jihadis.

It had senior people who are linked to Al Qaeda.

Are they all at it no, should the Mosque be closed down, yes.

The Libyan Community is a hot bed of militancy, are they all, no. Is there enough that that small community in Manchester is a national threat for over there - Yes.

Cant argue with any of that

NinjaKirby

wonderfullife wrote: »

1. Exactly the point.

Muslims are not supposed to drink, get stoned, sniff coke, gamble etc.

A scary majority of the guys committing these big atrocities in Europe live a life totally at odds with Islam. In fact, you could describe their lives as more in keeping with Christian or Atheist behaviour.

Then here's the question.

Is there some kind of teaching within Islam that would allow someone to be forgiven for the sins mentioned above and still be granted access to heaven/whatever?

I mean, is there some kind of act a Muslim could commit that would guarantee, regardless of previous sins, forgiveness and acceptance in the eyes of God?

A big problem in these conversations seems to be that nobody really understands Islam. Most of us here are raised catholic so maybe we have some idea. There seem to be loads of different interpretations and different levels of commitment to the ideology.

How does radicalization happen? Is it just appealing to crazy "lone wolf" types or is there a logical process that leads someone who is just a regular guy to end up thinking "I'm gonna blow up a concert for God"?

kopite386

The 17th and 18th victims are Chloe Rutherford, 17 , and her boyfriend Liam Curry, 19

Again they were also on the missing list

kopite386

The policewoman who is among the 18 has now been named as Elaine McIver from Cheshire Police

murpho999

sjb25 wrote: »

you no that's not what I ment my logic as you call it is that scumbag should not even be acknowledged by anybody

Sort of like how you don't acknowledge punctuation?

sjb25

murpho999 wrote: »

Sort of like how you don't acknowledge punctuation?

Sort of yeah

kopite386

There are 3 people who are still on the missing list who haven't been named among the deceased these are
Philip Tron and his step-daughter Courtney Boyle
Ashley Taylor

neverever1

blanch152 wrote: »

I agree, strange that following 9/11 or the Tube bombings or the more recent sequence of bombings in France, that young Westerners haven't become radicalised and are blowing themselves up all over the Middle East.

Can you not tell the difference between whole countries been flattened and thousands upon thousands been killed and what you've listed above?

NinjaKirby

blanch152 wrote: »

I agree, strange that following 9/11 or the Tube bombings or the more recent sequence of bombings in France, that young Westerners haven't become radicalised and are blowing themselves up all over the Middle East.

The West is very tolerant though. Despite what some people would have you believe, we live in probably the most tolerant societies ever.

I remember after the nonsense with that Danish newspaper and the Charlie Hebdo attack people were wondering if maybe they shouldn't have published these cartoons if they weren't ready to face the consequences.

After Manchester we are pushing this as a tragedy and as something we can all react to with a supportive attitude and solidarity. Light a candle. Post "love for all, hate for none" on your Twitter and get on with your life.

It wasn't a tragedy. It was a mass murder. An earthquake or an accident is a tragedy. This was a planned killing of innocents.

People are outraged over things like Katie Hopkins tweets. Genuinely mad and wound up and furious over tweets. She's vile, she's ignorant, she's an extremist herself. Maybe we ought to kick her off Twitter or throw her in jail.

Think about this. Yesterday in the UK there were people who watched a story about 22 people being murdered at a concert and shed a tear and shared a "deep" Facebook post before proceeding to get absolutely apoplectic with rage over a Tweet that some writer for the Daily Mail posted.

Mass Murder? React with sadness.
Tasteless Tweets? React with outrage.

The worst thing is that eventually we will see white extremists in Europe. Eventually one of these attacks will be the "enough is enough" moment and certain groups will take action.

I just hope I'm not around for that.

I absolutely despise people like Tommy Robinson. He's a little weasel that is gradually getting the ear of the public. He is barely even disguising his prejudice and ill intent towards Muslim communities. Little by little his popularity grows though.

I dunno. I have no hope for a good ending here.

Seems like we've been hearing "we won't let the terrorists win" for 20+ years now.

The terrorists are winning and it looks like we don't have an answer.

sjb25

kopite386 wrote: »

There are 4 people who are still on the missing list who haven't been named among the deceased these are
Philip Tron and his step-daughter Courtney Boyle
Ashley Taylor
Wendy Fawell

Wendy Fawell now named as a victim

kopite386

Wendy Fawell, 50, is now the 19th confirmed victim

silverharp

kopite386 wrote: »

There are 4 people who are still on the missing list who haven't been named among the deceased these are
Philip Tron and his step-daughter Courtney Boyle
Ashley Taylor
Wendy Fawell

your info is out of date, all victims have been named now , didnt see that there still people missing. Your no 4 is wrong for sure


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/wendy-fawell-manchester-terror-attack-10496756

A former primary school teacher has been confirmed as another victim of the Manchester bombing.

The family of Wendy Fawell, from Otley, West Yorkshire, had mounted a frantic campaign to find the 50-year-old who had been missing since Monday night's explosion.

Professor Moriarty

Danzy wrote: »

It is worth also pointing out that about 17 people from that Mosque have fought with Jihadis.

It had senior people who are linked to Al Qaeda.

Are they all at it no, should the Mosque be closed down, yes.

The Libyan Community is a hot bed of militancy, are they all, no. Is there enough that that small community in Manchester is a national threat for over there - Yes.

According to that bastion of leftie liberal values, The Sun (amongst others outlets), fellow students, family members (including his mother) and a Muslim community worker all reported their concerns to the police over the years.

Danzy

Danzy wrote: »

It is worth also pointing out that about 17 people from that Mosque have fought with Jihadis.

It had senior people who are linked to Al Qaeda.

Are they all at it no, should the Mosque be closed down, yes.

The Libyan Community is a hot bed of militancy, are they all, no. Is there enough that that small community in Manchester is a national threat for over there - Yes.

If the evidence is as you have stated then that mosque should be closed

Danzy

Questions have to be asked why wasn't the Mosque closed.

17 people from it have gone to fight, senior people who have links to Al Qaeda, including the bombers father.

Why hasn't the Mosque been boarded up, the good ones told, sorry but this is what the very large militant element have led to.

conorhal

wonderfullife wrote: »

1. Exactly the point.

Muslims are not supposed to drink, get stoned, sniff coke, gamble etc.

A scary majority of the guys committing these big atrocities in Europe live a life totally at odds with Islam. In fact, you could describe their lives as more in keeping with Christian or Atheist behaviour.

Yet when they do decide to blow themselves up or drive their truck through a crowd of people, it's "Islam" is to blame, when they weren't practicing that religion most of their lives and just decided to embrace a twisted interpretation at/near the end.

Two points.

1) Human beings are inherently hypocritical, we find cognitive dissonance very easy, I'm sure there are values you or I broadly espouse that we ourselves have privately contradicted when nobody is looking and felt a bit guilty about it afterwards, such is human nature.

2) This contradiction drives suicide bombers. Do you understand that in the Quran, to die in jihad is the only GUARANTEED way to enter Heaven?

This grant permission for killers like the Orlando shooter to spend his time on Grindr or the 9/11 terrorists to spend their evening drinking in strip clubs before they murdered thousands of people, because you can have a last roll of the dice and wipe it all away and be guaranteed a place in Heaven if you go out in a bang taking the kuffar with you. Like a deathbed confession, all that is required for forgiveness is sincere contrition, and there's no more evidence of sincerity than blowing yourself up.

In that regard his actions are entirely consistent with the teachings of Islam.

Danzy

NinjaKirby wrote: »

The West is very tolerant though. Despite what some people would have you believe, we live in probably the most tolerant societies ever.

I remember after the nonsense with that Danish newspaper and the Charlie Hebdo attack people were wondering if maybe they shouldn't have published these cartoons if they weren't ready to face the consequences.

After Manchester we are pushing this as a tragedy and as something we can all react to with a supportive attitude and solidarity. Light a candle. Post "love for all, hate for none" on your Twitter and get on with your life.

It wasn't a tragedy. It was a mass murder. An earthquake or an accident is a tragedy. This was a planned killing of innocents.

People are outraged over things like Katie Hopkins tweets. Genuinely mad and wound up and furious over tweets. She's vile, she's ignorant, she's an extremist herself. Maybe we ought to kick her off Twitter or throw her in jail.

Think about this. Yesterday in the UK there were people who watched a story about 22 people being murdered at a concert and shed a tear and shared a "deep" Facebook post before proceeding to get absolutely apoplectic with rage over a Tweet that some writer for the Daily Mail posted.

Mass Murder? React with sadness.
Tasteless Tweets? React with outrage.

The worst thing is that eventually we will see white extremists in Europe. Eventually one of these attacks will be the "enough is enough" moment and certain groups will take action.

I just hope I'm not around for that.

I absolutely despise people like Tommy Robinson. He's a little weasel that is gradually getting the ear of the public. He is barely even disguising his prejudice and ill intent towards Muslim communities. Little by little his popularity grows though.

I dunno. I have no hope for a good ending here.

Seems like we've been hearing "we won't let the terrorists win" for 20+ years now.

The terrorists are winning and it looks like we don't have an answer.

People can only take so much of the Tories short spectacles of doing something and most of the Left's constant victim blaming and refusal to even admit that there is a problem.

If the mainstream will not bother then voters will go elsewhere.

Where are the people who said his family was anti-Jihad etc.? The fact they went back to Libya as it is now suggested otherwise but it was thrown out as a fact right from the off.

Boggy Turf

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

According to that bastion of leftie liberal values, The Sun (amongst others outlets), fellow students, family members (including his mother) and a Muslim community worker all reported their concerns to the police over the years.

Honest question but what can police do if they believe someone has been "radicalised" and may be a a real threat. Is it enough to arrest?
Can they really monitor all "radicalised" young men on a daily basis?

ilkhanid

"He wanted revenge according to his sister, who is quoted as saying that “he saw children—Muslim children—dying everywhere, and wanted revenge. He saw the explosives America drops on children in Syria, and he wanted revenge."

See, this is the kind of thing that exasperates me.

For a start the USA has dropped comparatively few bombs in Syria and those were aimed at IS and lately there was the attack on the Syrian airbase.
But look at what he didn't see.

He didn't see the 13 000 people-some of them children-murdered by Assad's Muqhabarat and allied militias.

He didn't see the dead children killed by the barrel bombs dropped day and night on Aleppo and other towns.

He didn't see all the children killed by Russian bombings.

He didn't see the children and adults murdered by IS.
.
He didn't see the children and adults murdered by Jabat Al'Nusra and the other armed groups.

In short, he'd have to be living in a cave not to have seen these things. Open a newspaper, look at the TV,these scenes are all over the place.
In short he carefully cherry-picked what he chose to get outraged about.

Danzy

Deleted User wrote: »

Where are the people who said his family was anti-Jihad etc.? The fact they went back to Libya as it is now suggested otherwise but it was thrown out as a fact right from the off.

The fact that his father was involved in a senior way in an Al Qaeda affiliated Jihadi group suggests that at the least there was a difference of opinion, presumably the poor mother, if she had reported her son to the police.

neverever1

ilkhanid wrote: »

"He wanted revenge according to his sister, who is quoted as saying that “he saw children—Muslim children—dying everywhere, and wanted revenge. He saw the explosives America drops on children in Syria, and he wanted revenge."

See, this is the kind of thing that exasperates me.

For a start the USA has dropped comparatively few bombs in Syria and those were aimed at IS and lately there was the attack on the Syrian airbase.
But look at what he didn't see.

He didn't see the 13 000 people-some of them children-murdered by Assad's Muqhabarat and allied militias.

He didn't see the dead children killed by the barrel bombs dropped day and night on Aleppo and other towns.

He didn't see all the children killed by Russian bombings.

He didn't see the children and adults murdered by IS.
.
He didn't see the children and adults murdered by Jabat Al'Nusra and the other armed groups.

In short, he'd have to be living in a cave not to have seen these things. Open a newspaper, look at the TV,these scenes are all over the place.
In short he carefully cherry-picked what he chose to get outraged about.

So it has been spelled out to you in black and white and you still don't get it! This didn't just start yesterday, this didn't just start in the last few years, this has been going on for decades.
It can't keep being ignored. The history of bombing campaigns over Middle Eastern countries that has been going on for decades is the reason these reprisal attacks are happening. That's not excusing the attacks, it's not justifying the attacks, it's pointing out the cold, hard facts as to why the attacks are happening!

GritBiscuit

NinjaKirby wrote: »

How does radicalization happen? Is it just appealing to crazy "lone wolf" types or is there a logical process that leads someone who is just a regular guy to end up thinking "I'm gonna blow up a concert for God"?

I would think the lone wolf crazy types just have to be given a gentle nudge to find any cause to latch onto and lash out. For the radicalisation of a generation, things have to go a bit deeper. Constantly seeing via news reports of coalition bombing or perceived via extremist propaganda your people being killed, tortured and oppressed day in and day out...this leads to marginalisation and hatred, actions of a few have devastating repercussions for the masses which just further fuels the injustice, isolation and hatred cycle and, of course, the wish to retaliate in kind.

Why would anyone join or support a terrorist organisation? Surely we're better placed than most countries to see exactly why such a network gets a grip on a society, how it draws in the bitter and disaffected, why others see what is going on and choose to look away, what kind of actions drive popularity, what justifications are touted and what has to be done to get those involved (who aren't the lone crazy types that would be out creating havoc and destruction anyway) to lay down arms...

As much as I want "something" done, I can't help thinking anything aimed at an entire religious ideology is just going to perpetuate the issue for a whole new generation rather than solve anything. As for jihadists, IS/AQ recruiters, etc, etc. Throw the book at them. I actually don't understand why there is legislation to detain and deal with terrorists and yet young men are being allowed to travel to and from Syria and Iraq, visit mosques that are known to perpetuate extremism unfettered. I never understood the whole issue with Abu Hamza - eight years of tax payers money fighting an extradition he clearly deserved. There's liberal and democratic and there's blind stupidity....I worry we're crossing that line.

Professor Moriarty

Boggy Turf wrote: »

Honest question but what can police do if they believe someone has been "radicalised" and may be a a real threat. Is it enough to arrest?
Can they really monitor all "radicalised" young men on a daily basis?

No, sadly.. However, the state can't stand idly by. Personally, I would:

Increase police resources
Re-examine legislation regarding surveillance and the definition of incitement to violence (both within the norms of civilised society)
Engage with Muslim leaders to work out how to prevent radicalisation within communities who are separate to mainstream society because of religion and ethnicity.
Focus intel services on British Muslims travelling to and from countries were ISIS is active.

conorhal

Danzy wrote: »

Questions have to be asked why wasn't the Mosque closed.

17 people from it have gone to fight, senior people who have links to Al Qaeda, including the bombers father.

Why hasn't the Mosque been boarded up, the good ones told, sorry but this is what the very large militant element have led to.

It would be logical, but there is just no way it cold be considered, the left would go insane.
Besides, where would it end:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1567819/Hate-literature-easily-found-at-UK-mosques.html

25% of mosques in this survey were found to have extremist literature in their libraries and bookshops, which roughly correlates with the number of Muslims in the UK that support pretty regressive views. I'd be happy to see them all closed down, but the backlash would be enormous.

Can you imagine if a quarter of churches had copies of Mien Kampf and pamphlets on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion on their shelves next to the mass cards? You'd have to ask some serious questions, but as it's a minority community nobody's prepared to touch this with a barge poll.