Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

Former Coach

Former Former wrote: »

It took four minutes of tonight's game to show us why he's not being picked.

Yes, TOH slipped off that tackle a couple of metres from the line. You choose not to mention the fact that Scannell had just broken through 3 Connacht players who could have/ should have made the tackle. TOH would obviously have expected one of them to make the tackle and kill the move and had to re-adjust. I notice that you chose to ignore the earlier tackle he did make on Scannell (2 mins 20 in) which would have resulted in a certain try if not made. It's easy to be selective when you want to criticise- every player will make a mistake at some stage during a match.
Everybody's is entitled to their 'opinion' (you too!) but we should be as balanced as possible when putting those views forward.

prawnsambo

Former Coach wrote: »

Yes, TOH slipped off that tackle a couple of metres from the line. You choose not to mention the fact that Scannell had just broken through 3 Connacht players who could have/ should have made the tackle. TOH would obviously have expected one of them to make the tackle and kill the move and had to re-adjust. I notice that you chose to ignore the earlier tackle he did make on Scannell (2 mins 20 in) which would have resulted in a certain try if not made. It's easy to be selective when you want to criticise- every player will make a mistake at some stage during a match.
Everybody's is entitled to their 'opinion' (you too!) but we should be as balanced as possible when putting those views forward.

+1

I wouldn't be getting hung up on his tackling. Full backs almost always get caught in one on one defensive situations and TOH had very little time to adjust. The odds are always with the attacking player that close to the line.

Full backs are often unfairly criticised in those situations imo.

Wegians89

I've never seen ToH run at some one the way he did at earls in the first few minutes, put earls on his arse

connemara man

And the his defensive work on a 2 on 2 that got pulled back for a scrum no one attacking or defending after the point of the line break knew it was being called back. But TOH marshalled the 2 on 1 to allow time for cover to come back and got the tackle in before the line. It was only then they copped play had been called back

connachta

and a lot of unseen work, like when he managed to go through 3 defenders, when isolated, and still gained 2 or 3 meters, around the hour mark

prawnsambo

connemara man wrote: »

And the his defensive work on a 2 on 2 that got pulled back for a scrum no one attacking or defending after the point of the line break knew it was being called back. But TOH marshalled the 2 on 1 to allow time for cover to come back and got the tackle in before the line. It was only then they copped play had been called back

Yeah, he's definitely improved this season. I could credit that to KK having a different approach to Pat Lam, but it's too early yet to be definitive.

connachta

his bad appreciation under high-ball in 2nd half could have been a game-changer though, to be honnest

prawnsambo

connachta wrote: »

and a lot of unseen work, like when he managed to go through 3 defenders, when isolated, and still gained 2 or 3 meters, around the hour mark

That's not unseen work. Tha ball carrier is always front and centre in the cameras. Unseen work is where he shored up rucks in defense to protect the ball. He's certainly doing a lot more of that this season. Let's see if he maintains that effort.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I know what you mean. Its just one reason after the next to try to explain the absence by any reason other than the one the rest of the world can see - TOH isnt good enough for Ireland 15. Yet its all Joe's fault. Bizarre.

uncle joe can decide what he wants, posters here can agree or disagree.
But you feel you need to belittle OHalloran's try and in doing so validate Schmidts shameful decision.
Alot of posters defend schmidt to the last, even when its makes no sense.
I assume rather then presume, you have all read the jackman and zebo articles this week, seems Like I am not alone regards my thinking on the Zebo Affair.

connachta

prawnsambo wrote: »

connachta wrote: »

and a lot of unseen work, like when he managed to go through 3 defenders, when isolated, and still gained 2 or 3 meters, around the hour mark

That's not unseen work. Tha ball carrier is always front and centre in the cameras. Unseen work is where he shored up rucks in defense to protect the ball. He's certainly doing a lot more of that this season. Let's see if he maintains that effort.

I know what unseen work is in theory. My point is we often notice the runs/linebreaks and not the metters gained in contact for a back-three player

Former Former

Former Coach wrote: »

Yes, TOH slipped off that tackle a couple of metres from the line. You choose not to mention the fact that Scannell had just broken through 3 Connacht players who could have/ should have made the tackle. TOH would obviously have expected one of them to make the tackle and kill the move and had to re-adjust. I notice that you chose to ignore the earlier tackle he did make on Scannell (2 mins 20 in) which would have resulted in a certain try if not made. It's easy to be selective when you want to criticise- every player will make a mistake at some stage during a match.
Everybody's is entitled to their 'opinion' (you too!) but we should be as balanced as possible when putting those views forward.

I don't "want to criticise", but people keep slating me for saying he's left out for his defence, without offering any alternative explanation. I'm just trying to back up my opinions.

Am I balanced? Well, TOH was omitted in favour of Conway - a Connacht guy dropped for a Munster guy - as a Leinster fan, I don't have any particular bias there.

On your points;
1. Yes, other Connacht players were just as bad - I think Carty in particular - but TOH was exactly where he should have been, got his hands around Zebo and just slid off. It was criminal and if you don't think so, I can understand why we disagree.
2. Yeah, he made another tackle - but that doesn't erase the miss, it doesn't balance out to neutral.

He had a poor game all round, a few more mistakes but I didn't bring anything else up because I don't have any particular grudge against TOH, but I'm just bemused that people can't see what is plainly obvious.

TOH is omitted because he is a poor defender. If my 'opinion' is wrong, then someone please offer an alternative explanation. He's an excellent attacker, he can't be left out for that, so it somewhat narrows it down, no?

1eg0a3xv7b82of

The money that is in the French game currently is going to test the IRFU like never before.
for the players(employees) its not all about the money, its also about the principle and that goes for all jobs.
The IRFU will need to increase salaries for the top boys to make them stay but in doing so the results might drive a schism between players, provinces and fans.
The IRFU money men were always right, they cannot afford 4 provinces and within 10 years they might be only able to afford 2.
they could see the potential global growth for a young professional game and the advantages and major disadvantages that would come with that.
What is happening now in France is a battle not only for french rugby but world rugby. The owners want complete control in France and when achieved they will eye up the next target - the IRB and international rugby.
If the French Rugby Union lose complete control, which they will, The only real option open to the IRFU would be to to sell stakes in the provinces or/and rent their players back from oversea clubs.
Enjoy these innocent times, they are soon to change.

irishbucsfan

^ Shíte

Marina Old-fashioned Locket

Marina Old-fashioned Locket wrote: »

The money that is in the French game currently is going to test the IRFU like never before.
for the players(employees) its not all about the money, its also about the principle and that goes for all jobs.
The IRFU will need to increase salaries for the top boys to make them stay but in doing so the results might drive a schism between players, provinces and fans.
The IRFU money men were always right, they cannot afford 4 provinces and within 10 years they might be only able to afford 2.
they could see the potential global growth for a young professional game and the advantages and major disadvantages that would come with that.
What is happening now in France is a battle not only for french rugby but world rugby. The owners want complete control in France and when achieved they will eye up the next target - the IRB and international rugby.
If the French Rugby Union lose complete control, which they will, The only real option open to the IRFU would be to to sell stakes in the provinces or/and rent their players back from oversea clubs.
Enjoy these innocent times, they are soon to change.

Clegg

Chris Farrell is the selection call I've a problem with. He just doesn't seem that good a player.

Burkie1203

Clegg wrote: »

Chris Farrell is the selection call I've a problem with. He just doesn't seem that good a player.

Im not sure farrell would be there if Ringrose was available.

Henshaw is nailed on at 12 and Joe is giving McCloskeys early season form just reward.

Aki has been called up as a 13

MJohnston

Clegg wrote: »

Chris Farrell is the selection call I've a problem with. He just doesn't seem that good a player.

It’s clear Andy Farrell Farrell bias again.

Wegians89

MJohnston wrote: »

It’s clear Andy Farrell Farrell bias again.

Tom farrell last night showed he was the better Farrell of the farrells from which Andy Farrell could have picked a centre called Farrell

1eg0a3xv7b82of

i cant wait until 6:30, will he or wont he?
please uncle joe be there. My views on you need validation.

D14Rugby

Jaysus some people are seriously bitter and twisted over nothing.
To those getting annoyed joe wasn't at the game yesterday, other staff members were and it was taped and he'll watch that tape multiple times this week. Also did you ever consider that he's about to go into camp for what 4 weeks and its midterm so maybe he's spending some time with his kids? He is human after all.
On the Kearneys i thought why they're in the squad was obvious? Its so the coaches can go "right lads run xyz, new lads stand back and watch how its done" and so theres the three of them to pass on advice to the less experienced lads.
Zebo was dropped because come the world cup he wont be an irfu player, some posters here seem to be saying pick him anyway with one mouth then pick for the world cup with the other. Pick one.

Squidgy Black

Wegians89 wrote: »

Tom farrell last night showed he was the better Farrell of the farrells from which Andy Farrell could have picked a centre called Farrell

What because he had one line break that ended up in a try because of poor tackling?

The Rape of Lucretia

Marina Old-fashioned Locket wrote: »

But you...validate Schmidts shameful decision.
Alot of posters defend schmidt to the last, even when its makes no sense.

Shameful - whadda ya talking about? Joe makes a decision - one most of the rest of the world except a couple of Connaught-blinkered fans agree with - and shame simply doesnt make any sense.

It is true that Joe makes very few, if any, mistakes. He has made two that I know of - not throwing the French game at the last world cup in order to have a proper crack at the ABs, and an incorrect, complacent, mental approach to the Scottish game this year. But I have never seen him make a selection mistake. I think he simply doesnt do them.

The Rape of Lucretia

Marina Old-fashioned Locket wrote: »

The IRFU money men were always right, they cannot afford 4 provinces and within 10 years they might be only able to afford 2.

The 3+1 strategy has worked well though has it not ? Three main provinces and one acting as a 'sweeper' for players that are surplus to the primary three enuring that any local talent has a gateway to the top flight adn ensuring all-Ireland coverage of the professional game.

Agree with you the pressure may come though, and that that model may no be sustainable indefinitely. But the historical regionalism, fundamentally a core strength of the irish rugby transition to professionalism, limits the pragmatic options. Downgrading to 2 main provinces will not be politically do-able, being an existential threat to both Ulster and Munster which would not be tolerated. And I still think maintaining the Connacht programme is worthwhile even though we could be back to the point where disbanding it would be advocated by some.

I think the four will be maintained, but probably more of a 1+2+1, rather than the current aim of a 3+1, with Ulster and Munster competitive but not really leading championship material. The Munster golden era (now 10 years ago...) possibly leads some to overestimate their long term capability to be a regular top contender. Their real weight is more in line with Ulster's average level over the last 20 years. Leinster, having the population, and the weight of the top feeder schools, will always be the IRFU priority to maintain as its top team - if it were to fail, it would be a doomsday scenario for European level pro rugby in Ireland, and worse, open a dismal vista for our international team.
But I would be confident we will not reach that point.

irishbucsfan

MJohnston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The bait becomes the baited

Erik Shin

Small dogs with big barks

connachta

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Wegians89 wrote: »

Tom farrell last night showed he was the better Farrell of the farrells from which Andy Farrell could have picked a centre called Farrell

What because he had one line break that ended up in a try because of poor tackling?

because he was absolutely brillant, smashed any Munsterman in defence and strong in possession

connachta

connachta wrote: »

because he was absolutely brillant, smashed any Munsterman in defence and strong in possession

With the entire Connacht team playing such insatiable rugby it's a wonder it wasn't cricket scores in the end.

connachta

go watching Leinster, the real only one Irish team, and leave those who love rugby quiet
BTW Farrell played underage in Dublin, this precision will bring him a bit more respect maybe..

1eg0a3xv7b82of

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The 3+1 strategy has worked well though has it not ? Three main provinces and one acting as a 'sweeper' for players that are surplus to the primary three enuring that any local talent has a gateway to the top flight adn ensuring all-Ireland coverage of the professional game.

Agree with you the pressure may come though, and that that model may no be sustainable indefinitely. But the historical regionalism, fundamentally a core strength of the irish rugby transition to professionalism, limits the pragmatic options. Downgrading to 2 main provinces will not be politically do-able, being an existential threat to both Ulster and Munster which would not be tolerated. And I still think maintaining the Connacht programme is worthwhile even though we could be back to the point where disbanding it would be advocated by some.

I think the four will be maintained, but probably more of a 1+2+1, rather than the current aim of a 3+1, with Ulster and Munster competitive but not really leading championship material. The Munster golden era (now 10 years ago...) possibly leads some to overestimate their long term capability to be a regular top contender. Their real weight is more in line with Ulster's average level over the last 20 years. Leinster, having the population, and the weight of the top feeder schools, will always be the IRFU priority to maintain as its top team - if it were to fail, it would be a doomsday scenario for European level pro rugby in Ireland, and worse, open a dismal vista for our international team.
But I would be confident we will not reach that point.

I dont think what I posted will happen today or tomorrow but the day will come where The IRFU may have to give up some power to make the irish provinces competitive in Europe.
We are entering a difficult stage for the provinces, 2 quiet useless south African clubs come into the pro14, the welsh and scottish secretly want to join with the english and the italian clubs live with the reality at least one could be dissolved.
And the French and English get richer.
The day we know the pro12 is safe and viable is when its not on TG4 anymore and Sky or BT want it all.
Ireland will always produce very good players but the question is where will they be playing.