Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd have to think about it to be honest. It would be a short term decision but potentially the better one given the squads needs right now.

End of the season doesn't sound short term to me.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

End of the season doesn't sound short term to me.

That's not what I meant. If I had to choose between Ross Byrne to go to Ulster for 2 years or Carbery to go to Ulster for 2 years, Ross Byrne is the one I'd hold onto as he is a more complete 10 for us right now. We'd be in a different place this season without him whereas Carbery hasn't been available at all.

Basing a decision on this and last season it's a no brainer, but Carbery may end up the better player and hopfully more robust so Ross Byrne might be a better call short term but long term you would lose out.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

That's not what I meant. If I had to choose between Ross Byrne to go to Ulster for 2 years or Carbery to go to Ulster for 2 years, Ross Byrne is the one I'd hold onto as he is a more complete 10 for us right now. We'd be in a different place this season without him whereas Carbery hasn't been available at all.

Basing a decision on this and last season it's a no brainer, but Carbery may end up the better player and hopfully more robust so Ross Byrne might be a better call short term but long term you would lose out.

Well I don't agree. Byrne is good, but he doesn't attack the line like Carbery does. I'd suggest that their playing styles are what influences their injury profiles.

Podge_irl

prawnsambo wrote: »

molloyjh wrote: »

We’ve seen cases before where a guy is preferred provincially but is behind his competition nationally. It’s also only really been this season that we’ve seen Byrne really start to step up. At no point this season have we really seen what the pecking order is at Leinster.

For me I’d have Byrne ahead of Carbery right now. He’s a better 10, mainly because he’s been getting the game time. That’s unfortunate for Joey, but IMO Byrne is further along in his development.

OK. So given the choice, you'd prefer Carbery to go to Ulster?

I realize it’s not what you asked but I’d keep Byrne at 10 and Carberry at 15 and laugh heartily while the next 10 European Cups roll in. It’s by far the best use of their talents (at this point in time).

swiwi_

Does anyone else think we should pool together and petition Leinster rugby to tell us who Cullen prefers at 10? If we go through official channels we could solve this dilemma once and for all. I can act as a neutral Swiss intermediary if required.

salmocab

swiwi_ wrote: »

Does anyone else think we should pool together and petition Leinster rugby to tell us who Cullen prefers at 10? If we go through official channels we could solve this dilemma once and for all. I can act as a neutral Swiss intermediary if required.

Telling us is the least they could do. They owe it to us as key board warriors to keep us all in the loop.

Squidgy Black

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well I don't agree. Byrne is good, but he doesn't attack the line like Carbery does. I'd suggest that their playing styles are what influences their injury profiles.

That and the sheer size difference, Byrne is listed as 4 inches taller than Carbery and nearly 10kg heavier. That's gonna go a long way when taking a hit.

Buer

That and the sheer size difference, Byrne is listed as 4 inches taller than Carbery and nearly 10kg heavier. That's gonna go a long way when taking a hit.

It's an overlooked part of his game. Byrne is a remarkably comfortable and strong defender for someone so young. His tackle count is often up to double figures and he rarely misses one. His size allows him get in amongst his back row and Henshaw also when they're looking to hold a carrier up similar to how Sexton does.

Granny15

Buer wrote: »

It's an overlooked part of his game. Byrne is a remarkably comfortable and strong defender for someone so young. His tackle count is often up to double figures and he rarely misses one. His size allows him get in amongst his back row and Henshaw also when they're looking to hold a carrier up similar to how Sexton does.

Carberry is the better tackler though. Carberry has noticeably taken big hits in his career and put the attacker backwards in the tackle. Byrne tends to flake off tackles.

irishbucsfan

Speak up Buer

Interested Observer

Granny15 wrote: »

Cullen will do as Joe thinks best.

If there's one thing we do know it's that you're wrong here, or else Carbery would be playing a lot more at 10 for Leinster.

prawnsambo

Interested Observer wrote: »

If there's one thing we do know it's that you're wrong here, or else Carbery would be playing a lot more at 10 for Leinster.

You do realise that circumstances have largely prevented that from happening?

irishbucsfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

You do realise that circumstances have largely prevented that from happening?

They haven’t totally prevented it from happening though. Carberry has played 15 in games where Nacewa has been fit. It’s a choice.

Interested Observer

prawnsambo wrote: »

You do realise that circumstances have largely prevented that from happening?

The comment I replied to has no basis in reality. End of.

Granny15

Interested Observer wrote: »

The comment I replied to has no basis in reality. End of.

Yes Cullen has played Carberry at full back more often than outhalf and this goes against Schmidt's preference. Fair play to him at the time he said it was his way of getting all the best players on the pitch. Is it his best position? No. Is he ahead of Byrne? From what Cullen said Yes. Will Joe make Cullen pick Carberry at outhalf in future? He may not but when push comes to shove the call is Joes to make purely because of the structure of Irish rugby.

Squidgy Black

Granny15 wrote: »

Will Joe make Cullen pick Carberry at outhalf in future? He may not but when push comes to shove the call is Joes to make purely because of the structure of Irish rugby.

Any basis behind this at all or just pure speculation and conspiracy

Interested Observer

Granny15 wrote: »

Yes Cullen has played Carberry at full back more often than outhalf and this goes against Schmidt's preference. Fair play to him at the time he said it was his way of getting all the best players on the pitch. Is it his best position? No. Is he ahead of Byrne? From what Cullen said Yes. Will Joe make Cullen pick Carberry at outhalf in future? He may not but when push comes to shove the call is Joes to make purely because of the structure of Irish rugby.

It is definitely how he gets all his best players onto the pitch, no argument. We don't know who is ahead of who at 10 but all we can go in is Carbery is not playing 10 for Leinster. I don't agree it's Schmidt's call, Cullen will keep doing what's best for Leinster with an eye to the national team.

And I can't comment on stuff that just hasn't happened.

prawnsambo

Interested Observer wrote: »

The comment I replied to has no basis in reality. End of.

What? Even if you think I'm talking through my nether orifice, Joe Schmidt said exactly that when asked why Carbery wasn't playing at ten for Leinster.

And less of the 'end of' crap. It's not remotely the end of anything, least of all because you say so. :rolleyes:

Former Former

We have no idea who Leo prefers at 10 and we have no idea if he prefers Carbery at 10 or 15.

Nacewa was playing 12 for most of the early part of the season because we had no fit centres and Kearney was injured. We had to play Carbery at 15.

Now that Kearney is back, Nacewa is moved out and Larmour is coming along nicely, there shouldn't be any need to play Carbery at 15; so if Leo continues to do so anyway, then we can start drawing conclusions.

Granny15

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Any basis behind this at all or just pure speculation and conspiracy

It's what is generally well known about the pyramid structure of Irish rugby when it comes to selection of players for their province. Players position for the international team take preference over their best position for province. Joe hasn't been Enforcing that but you wonder how long it will last

Interested Observer

prawnsambo wrote: »

What? Even if you think I'm talking through my nether orifice, Joe Schmidt said exactly that when asked why Carbery wasn't playing at ten for Leinster.

And less of the 'end of' crap. It's not remotely the end of anything, least of all because you say so. :rolleyes:

Joe Schmidt said Leo Cullen will do what he's told? Link?

prawnsambo

Interested Observer wrote: »

Joe Schmidt said Leo Cullen will do what he's told? Link?

I'm referring to my post. I don't answer for other posters. Especially ones I can't see.

Interested Observer

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm referring to my post. I don't answer for other posters. Especially ones I can't see.

Alright, I don't even know what you're arguing about anymore. I replied to a comment (that wasn't made by you), I'm perfectly happy that response was accurate, now moving on.

stephen_n

awec wrote: »

Can you please explain how not playing players who are absolutely not good enough is a shocking decision?

Do you think all it takes is giving these lads a run out for the senior team to make them into semi-decent players?

The reason we signed Lealiifaano in the first place is the alternatives were ****. We would have to be pretty damn thick to sign a good 10 and then play our rubbish ones on a semi-regular basis.

When CL leaves we either need Jackson back or another signing. There is absolutely no way Ulster could have avoided being in that situation. Throwing the likes of Herron or McPhillips in more is not going to magically make them up to the task of running the show at the business end of the season.

How do you know they’re not good enough if they get zero game time. They’re suddenly going to become good enough when Lealiifano goes? That’s the context of the comment, I know you’re not very familiar with context but it is however an important tool. The fact is that given the lack of anouncment of any sort of replacement and the virtual impossibility of Jackson returning. They will be your tens for the remainder of the season, which was the context of my comment.

Granny15

Interested Observer wrote: »

Joe Schmidt said Leo Cullen will do what he's told? Link?

He didn't say that but that has been the structure of Irish rugby going back to O Sullivan / Garland. Irish coaches have been known to tell provincial coaches where to play players. To take everything I say and dissect it as if I meant it literally is anal. Leo will do as Joe wishes? Maybe not but it COULD happen soon. Stop micro analysing every word I say

prawnsambo

Interested Observer wrote: »

Alright, I don't even know what you're arguing about anymore. I replied to a comment (that wasn't made by you), I'm perfectly happy that response was accurate, now moving on.

I actually wasn't arguing. You responded to the same post of mine twice without really referring to its content. And then threw an 'end of' at me. Which apparently was collateral damage.

A chap could get paranoid with that sort of thing.

irishbucsfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

I actually wasn't arguing. You responded to the same post of mine twice without really referring to its content. And then threw an 'end of' at me. Which apparently was collateral damage.

A chap could get paranoid with that sort of thing.

He responded to someone completely different originally

Interested Observer

prawnsambo wrote: »

I actually wasn't arguing. You responded to the same post of mine twice without really referring to its content. And then threw an 'end of' at me. Which apparently was collateral damage.

A chap could get paranoid with that sort of thing.

I responded to a post by Granny15, not you.

joseywhales

Granny15 wrote: »

Interested Observer wrote: »

Joe Schmidt said Leo Cullen will do what he's told? Link?

He didn't say that but that has been the structure of Irish rugby going back to O Sullivan / Garland. Irish coaches have been known to tell provincial coaches where to play players. To take everything I say and dissect it as if I meant it literally is anal. Leo will do as Joe wishes? Maybe not but it COULD happen soon. Stop micro analysing every word I say

I think the most prescient assumption to the argument that carbery>Byrne at 10 was that Joe Schmidt has the power to choose who should play 10 for Leinster since you noted that Joe wanted it so but accepted an "excuse" that playing carbery out of position was the best use of Leinster resources.

But obviously if the assumption is not true then we have no way of knowing who would start given both are fit and a better 15 is available as we don't know Cullen's preference therefore the answer to who is more valuable as a long term 10 for Leinster is unknown.

Personally, my opinion is that in the very short term were Leinster to play the European champions cup decider tomorrow and both were fit along with Rob Kearney but Sexton was unavailable, I would pick Byrne to start at 10, it would be a very easy decision.

joseywhales

Also Judy Garland has been haunting provincial rugby in Ireland for far too long