Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

tooManyChoices

phog wrote: »

I have a bigger concern for cover for Murray.

We have excellent depth at scrum-half.
We don't have 4 Conor Murrays, but we have 3 players who can definitely do the job, probably 4 by world cup time.

Murray is the best, but the others have closed the gap massively in recent years and are still on an upward course. We have no worry here.

phog

tooManyChoices wrote: »

We have excellent depth at scrum-half.
We don't have 4 Conor Murrays, but we have 3 players who can definitely do the job, probably 4 by world cup time.

Murray is the best, but the others have closed the gap massively in recent years and are still on an upward course. We have no worry here.

We have players who can stand in a do a job but we really don't have excellent depth there.

Yeah_Right

phog wrote: »

We have players who can stand in a do a job but we really don't have excellent depth there.

I agree. I don't think the back up 9s are that great. I do a little what if test in my head. What if any of Marmion, McGrath, Cooney were elligible for another country and not Ireland. Would they make that country's match day squad? France, Argentina or SA maybe. Italy yes. That's it I think.

tooManyChoices

phog wrote: »

We have players who can stand in a do a job but we really don't have excellent depth there.

theres's only 3-4 scrumhalves in the world who are at a conor murray level.
As far as 2nd/3rd string options go we're up there with anyone...maybe NZ are better.

Rigor Mortis

stephen_n wrote: »

Did Joe or anyone else in the Irish camp use this expression? I don't think so, people assumed that was why he was being picked. There is nothing factual to back it up, the probability is, he was picked because he remains first choice 15 against tier 1 opposition.

In fairness he did mention it in post match analysis, that it was helpful that Kearney had been there in games when there was inexperienced players in the back 3.

I think you are probably correct about point b in the absence of any established competition.

CIARAN_BOYLE

stephen_n wrote: »

Did Joe or anyone else in the Irish camp use this expression? I don't think so, people assumed that was why he was being picked. There is nothing factual to back it up, the probability is, he was picked because he remains first choice 15 against tier 1 opposition.

My point is that he would have been picked there no matter the competition because of the tag not that he wasn't deserving of the start on his own merits.

My second point is that come the 2019 world cup Conway, Stockdale, Earls, Henshaw, Ringrose and Bundee (and possibly Payne and another back three player) will be competing for spots in the Irish backline. It won't be a case that 11-14 will have 10 caps between them. What's more Kearney will be another couple of years older so we wil have to see what happens.

freyners

phog wrote: »

We have players who can stand in a do a job but we really don't have excellent depth there.

Yet when they have got their chance in an actually competitive match (England) both Marmion and Mcgrath have done above what most people here expected.

While of course admitting that Murray is a different class there is a huge difference between playing some minutes at the end of games where the result is already assured/playing with the more experimental teams vs playing in the competition team. I think "do a job" undersells both their capabilities somewhat

phog

freyners wrote: »

Yet when they have got their chance in an actually competitive match (England) both Marmion and Mcgrath have done above what most people here expected.

While of course admitting that Murray is a different class there is a huge difference between playing some minutes at the end of games where the result is already assured/playing with the more experimental teams vs playing in the competition team. I think "do a job" undersells both their capabilities somewhat

I actually thought Marmion was poor enough v Fiji I certainly wouldn't class his game as above expectations.

McGrath got 3 mins Saturday in a game where we were more than 2 scores ahead, hardly a huge vote of confidence from Joe.

freyners

phog wrote: »

I actually thought Marmion was poor enough v Fiji I certainly wouldn't class his game as above expectations.

McGrath got 3 mins Saturday in a game where we were more than 2 scores ahead, hardly a huge vote of confidence from Joe.

Fiji game was average and agreed on mcgrath. I was more referring to the English games were both came out looking well and that's the only true competitive game both have had a proper opportunity imo

Bazzo

phog wrote: »

I actually thought Marmion was poor enough v Fiji I certainly wouldn't class his game as above expectations.

McGrath got 3 mins Saturday in a game where we were more than 2 scores ahead, hardly a huge vote of confidence from Joe.

He was specifically talking about England in this year's 6 nations though. Both Marmion and McGrath played excellently in that match.

There's a big difference seing them play behind a first choice experienced Irish pack and seeing them play in an almost completely second string team.

JPCN1

Hooker the big conundrum imo. Best is 35 now and whilst still playing well I cannot see that remains the case when he's pushing 37 in Japan.

We have a great chance of a 6 nations but think after that it's time to bring on Scannel or whoever deemed next off the rank.

Stephen Moore at the same age looked as willing as ever on Saturday but the legs gone a bit and they're the same age.

aloooof

JPCN1 wrote: »

Hooker the big conundrum imo. Best is 35 now and whilst still playing well I cannot see that remains the case when he's pushing 37 in Japan.

We have a great chance of a 6 nations but think after that it's time to bring on Scannel or whoever deemed next off the rank.

Stephen Moore at the same age looked as willing as ever on Saturday but the legs gone a bit and they're the same age.

The timing of Scannell's injury was a real shame, with Cronin not being selected for the squad I think he's the front runner as back-up hooker if everyone's fit.

CIARAN_BOYLE

aloooof wrote: »

The timing of Scannell's injury was a real shame, with Cronin not being selected for the squad I think he's the front runner as back-up hooker if everyone's fit.

I wonder if Cronin is being written off or if the decision was given to leave him out, give him a rest and have an in depth look at the backups.

After all he is 31, 33 in Japan and unusually for a hooker relies on his speed to stand out.

Don Kiddick

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I wonder if Cronin is being written off or if the decision was given to leave him out, give him a rest and have an in depth look at the backups.

After all he is 31, 33 in Japan and unusually for a hooker relies on his speed to stand out.

Were there not a few suggestions in here that perhaps he was looking at going abroad at the seasonend ?

stephen_n

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I wonder if Cronin is being written off or if the decision was given to leave him out, give him a rest and have an in depth look at the backups.

After all he is 31, 33 in Japan and unusually for a hooker relies on his speed to stand out.

I would have to wonder if his deficiencies at scrum time are catching up with him. The change to the law making striking mandatory may make him less attractive. Of all the candidates for hooker, he is definitely the weakest scrummager.

salmocab

Don Kiddick wrote: »

Were there not a few suggestions in here that perhaps he was looking at going abroad at the seasonend ?

I think that was more that it seemed odd that he was left out with no real explanation, it seems to me odd that Cronin would suddenly be behind maybe 4/5 guys when a year or so ago he was second choice. His form hasnt fallen off a cliff although it does seem that he may have lost his place at Leinster. He certainly brings a lot more off the bench than the others so Id suspect that there is a reason for him being left out other than form, it could be professional like him planning a move abroad or possibly something in his personal life thats none of our business.

prawnsambo

salmocab wrote: »

I think that was more that it seemed odd that he was left out with no real explanation, it seems to me odd that Cronin would suddenly be behind maybe 4/5 guys when a year or so ago he was second choice. His form hasnt fallen off a cliff although it does seem that he may have lost his place at Leinster. He certainly brings a lot more off the bench than the others so Id suspect that there is a reason for him being left out other than form, it could be professional like him planning a move abroad or possibly something in his personal life thats none of our business.

I think it's more likely Ciaran_Boyle's suggestion. Since Best is captain, that just left three sub spots and one starter to try other options. Cronin doesn't need trying out and his presence would be pointless.

Burkie1203

IT say POM is talking to 2 French and 1 english club. Offer from IRFU on the table. They say that his management have enlisted another agent who is licencsed to operate in france

Don Kiddick

Burkie1203 wrote: »

IT say POM is talking to 2 French and 1 english club. Offer from IRFU on the table. They say that his management have enlisted another agent who is licencsed to operate in france

Yep, saw that. It has been rumoured before that POM could be one to leave...he's had a career threatening injury and is now in fine form...28 years of age...his wife has French connections... rumours of his salary being doubled.... frankly, he'd be daft not to give it serious consideration... There's an English side looking too... he'd definitely get a major pay increase across the pond also.... worrying times ahead as a Munster/Ireland supporter

Former Former

Meh, wouldn't worry. POM is a step up in importance from anyone who's left previously. Just a bit of a shakedown I'd say.

2019 will be his last shot at a World Cup which could be important given how the last one ended for him.

prawnsambo

Former Former wrote: »

Meh, wouldn't worry. POM is a step up in importance from anyone who's left previously. Just a bit of a shakedown I'd say.

2019 will be his last shot at a World Cup which could be important given how the last one ended for him.

You can't discount that injury though. He was out for a long time and somebody with the possibility of another injury ending their career would be justified in taking the money now rather than gamble on the elusive pot of gold at the end of the RWC rainbow. Which won't butter any parsnips.

Wegians89

Newstalk saying he's rejected a deal from irfu that would see him here after the World Cup. English and French clubs offering twice as much and that his aim is a short term deal to play in the World Cup and then leave

prawnsambo

Wegians89 wrote: »

Newstalk saying he's rejected a deal from irfu that would see him here after the World Cup. English and French clubs offering twice as much and that his aim is a short term deal to play in the World Cup and then leave

So having his cake and eating it. Good man POM.

Wegians89

prawnsambo wrote: »

So having his cake and eating it. Good man POM.

Can't blame him tbh

molloyjh

Wegians89 wrote: »

Newstalk saying he's rejected a deal from irfu that would see him here after the World Cup. English and French clubs offering twice as much and that his aim is a short term deal to play in the World Cup and then leave

Yeah that makes sense really. Smart way to do it if in fact that's what he's doing.

phog

Just a bit on the scrumhalf situation for Ireland via BallHandling Hooker on Twitter

Joe Schmidt has been in charge of Ireland for 50 games. The following thread is a look at who the scrumhalves he has chosen in his matchday 23 are. What time a replacement was made - and at was score in the game....

Conor Murray has been by far Schmidt's first choice - starting him in 38/50 games, and 2 sub appearances.
In the 2 games that Murray was a sub - Murray came on at 56 minutes (v Argentina Summer 2013), and 71 minutes (Romania RWC15).

Murray was played 80 minutes 13 times, and was the 9 that kept a sub on the bench every time that situation occurred (7).
Murray played over 75 minutes eight more times.

The next most used scrumhalf was Eoin Reddan with 5 starts, and 14 sub appearances.
Reddan also had 2 games where he was kept on the bench, and 2 where he came on when Murray also stayed on (at 78 minutes, and at 77 minutes).

More
Still, Reddan was trusted to come on before 60 minutes (1), 60-65 mins (3), and 65-70 mins (3).
Reddan did have two appearances at scrumhalf between 70-75, and 3 after 75 minutes.

Marmion has been in 23 Schmidt matchday squads - starting 5, and being unused in 8. He also has 3 games with less than 5 minutes, and another with less than 10.
Schmidt played an injured Murray for 10 minutes before putting on Marmion - before Murray was out injured for 2 months

Marmion only came on in one game that had a less than 2 score advantage before 75 minutes for reasons other than an injury. That was his 1st cap v Argentina in the 2013 tour when it was 23-10 after 58 minutes.

All of the margins that Marmion has come on for Murray/Reddan when it wasn't due to injury before the 75th minute:

v Argentina (58th) 23-10 W
v Italy (59th min) 46-10 W
v Georgia (62nd) 30-7 W
v Wales (67th) 35-7 W
v Italy (68th) 41-10 W
v South Africa (70th) 24-3 W [2017]

The only game that Marmion has come on in a losing position was against South Africa in the 2nd test in 2016. It was in the 77th min - just after South Africa had taken the lead from a missed tackle from Conor Murray after Ireland had been visibly tiring for 30 mins at altitude

Now, Luke McGrath and John Cooney got similar treatment. In Cooney's single appearance - it was 28-13 against Japan in the 72nd minute before he was put on over Marmion;

McGrath got 5 minutes this November taking over from Marmion (v Fiji), and Murray (v Argentina [28-12])

* that's 5 minutes total - 3 minutes against Fiji, 2 and a half against Argentina.

Former Former

Wegians89 wrote: »

Newstalk saying he's rejected a deal from irfu that would see him here after the World Cup. English and French clubs offering twice as much and that his aim is a short term deal to play in the World Cup and then leave

That would be a good deal for POM. Might be a bad precedent for the IRFU to set.

awec

We’ve come full circle now, players wanting shorter deals instead of longer ones. I guess the dynamics have changed and players don’t want to get tied down in Ireland in their late career.

errlloyd

awec wrote: »

We’ve come full circle now, players wanting shorter deals instead of longer ones. I guess the dynamics have changed and players don’t want to get tied down in Ireland in their late career.

POM would turn 34 during the France world cup. Which is fine for many back rowers, but I guess he has an abrasive enough style and did start youngish. It seems to me reasonably rational that he would conclude that this world cup is quite possibly his last even if he stays in Ireland. And he also probably knows that if he is still feeling great at the next World Cup he could come home and play in it.

After every World Cup New Zealand heaomrage a load of players. It has almost hurt them before (Steven Donald did well, but in reality Nick Evans was a better player in 2011). However I think that culture of giving it to your country for world cup cycles is a good one. There are back rowers coming who can step up. Now our teams need leadership. Ageing veterans are additional coaches. So we don't want to lose them all, but we can afford to let a few go right?

Same could be said of SOB, Toner and even Sexton. If they wanted a payday the IRFU shouldn't invest too heavily keeping them all beyond Japan. IMHO.

sydthebeat

one thing we dont have over here, probably due to the smaller number of top level players, is the 'years sabbatical' that some all black players are offered ie Dan Carter, Ben Smith, Richie McCaw, generally towards the twilight of their career to get one last RWC out of them.

For example, Sexton could definitely benefit from a six month break around winter '18. At that stage Sexton will be a year older than Carter was when he took his break. Maybe taking at '18 November internationals and the 2019 6N off.