Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

Niallof9

Former Former wrote: »

Honestly, I don't think this happens.

I'd struggle to name a single player who has consistently performed (for maybe > 1 year) at his province and not been given a fair shot.

Adam Byrne and Sweetnam are two glaring examples...they haven't been given a fair shot.

Look we know some of you don't believe in form.

Its a mix of both...look at the Lions for example.

Former Former

Niallof9 wrote: »

Adam Byrne and Sweetnam are two glaring examples...they haven't been given a fair shot.

Look we know some of you don't believe in form.

Its a mix of both...look at the Lions for example.

You're dead right actually. It's typical of Joe that Byrne and Sweetnam have been completely ignored while clapped-out plodders like Conway, Stockdale and O'Loughlin are called up AGAIN.

molloyjh

Niallof9 wrote: »

Adam Byrne and Sweetnam are two glaring examples...they haven't been given a fair shot.

Look we know some of you don't believe in form.

Its a mix of both...look at the Lions for example.

Don't believe in form? Would you go away out of that. Saying that form isn't the be all and end all is worlds away from "not believing in form". Why come on a discussion board if you're not going to even make an attempt to discuss what people are actually saying?

As for the 2 lads, there are only so many slots available on the plane. ROL, Conway and Stockdale have all been selected so it's not like these guys are being left behind so that guys like McFadden, Trimble and Gilroy can go in their place.

It's the most progressive selection I can remember from an Irish side and yet still all some people want to do is find something to complain about. Is there literally no way that coaches can win with people like you?

mfceiling

I'm not casting any doubts on Joe's latest selection...very good picks all round.

I just wonder about form sometimes. Take CJ for instance. Before he got capped he was ripping it up in the league but when it was suggested he was in great form you get "ah sure the league is no great barometer of where he's at"..."maybe 15 mins off the bench against Italy and Scotland"..."once POM comes back he'll have to make do with the bench". Turns out he is well able for international rugby and his league form could transfer to the big stage with a run of games under his belt.

Would TOH or Dillane have settled in to the team as easily if they got 6 or 7 games?

Ringrose got his run of games and again he hasn't looked out of place bar the odd mistake which almost every player will occasionally make.

Niallof9

Is Jacob Stockdale really 6,5 according to Ulster website and photos beside James Ryan? Didn't realise he was that big

Niallof9

molloyjh wrote: »

Don't believe in form? Would you go away out of that. Saying that form isn't the be all and end all is worlds away from "not believing in form". Why come on a discussion board if you're not going to even make an attempt to discuss what people are actually saying?

As for the 2 lads, there are only so many slots available on the plane. ROL, Conway and Stockdale have all been selected so it's not like these guys are being left behind so that guys like McFadden, Trimble and Gilroy can go in their place.

It's the most progressive selection I can remember from an Irish side and yet still all some people want to do is find something to complain about. Is there literally no way that coaches can win with people like you?

Its a very good selection but he has erred in the Sweetnam and Byrne calls imo.

Bridge93

Niallof9 wrote: »

Its a very good selection but he has erred in the Sweetnam and Byrne calls imo.

Who would you have left behind to get them in?

sydthebeat

Niallof9 wrote: »

Its a very good selection but he has erred in the Sweetnam and Byrne calls imo.

so you drop zebo and earls for sweetnam and byrne... do you?

he travels with TOH as the only capped back 3 player???
what does ROL, Sweetnam, Byrne, stockdale or Conway learn playing outside of TOH ?

Niallof9

Its a tough one. I really like ROL but he hasn't done more than AB if he's being picked at wing. If Joe hadn't fupped up originally with Bowe and McFadden selections maybe it wouldn't have been as tough.

Podge_irl

Niallof9 wrote: »

Its a tough one. I really like ROL but he hasn't done more than AB if he's being picked at wing.

You can only assume he is there to also cover centre.

Former Former

Niallof9 wrote: »

Its a tough one. I really like ROL but he hasn't done more than AB if he's being picked at wing. If Joe hadn't fupped up originally with Bowe and McFadden selections maybe it wouldn't have been as tough.

Lol. The Bowe selection was February. McFadden hasn't played in over a year.

I try my best to take people seriously but for fnck's sake, that's ridiculous

Buer

Niallof9 wrote: »

Its a tough one. I really like ROL but he hasn't done more than AB if he's being picked at wing. If Joe hadn't fupped up originally with Bowe and McFadden selections maybe it wouldn't have been as tough.

Once Olding was ruled out, ROL always became a strong candidate. There's only one other out and out 13 on the tour and he has a strong chance of being called up to the Lions. The fact that ROL is a 13 who has played a bit on the wing this season makes it a straightforward choice.

The coaches are selecting based on where they see the need to develop depth, not to give multiple options a shot. They already have their preferred starting wingers and are going to look to supplement that with 1-2 others. They know there's no benefit to bringing guys like Trimble and DK who they know and trust as established back up to Earls and Zebo.

It's clear they see the more pressing need to develop in areas such as hooker and lock than on the wing.

Niallof9

Former Former wrote: »

Lol. The Bowe selection was February. McFadden hasn't played in over a year.

I try my best to take people seriously but for fnck's sake, that's ridiculous

They were selected ahead of other for f*ck sake. whats so hard to understand?

Niallof9

Buer wrote: »

Once Olding was ruled out, ROL always became a strong candidate. There's only one other out and out 13 on the tour and he has a strong chance of being called up to the Lions. The fact that ROL is a 13 who has played a bit on the wing this season makes it a straightforward choice.

The coaches are selecting based on where they see the need to develop depth, not to give multiple options a shot. They already have their preferred starting wingers and are going to look to supplement that with 1-2 others. They know there's no benefit to bringing guys like Trimble and DK who they know and trust as established back up to Earls and Zebo.

It's clear they see the more pressing need to develop in areas such as hooker and lock than on the wing.

Well if they don't see the problems we have in our back three...i'm not sure what they are doing. Trimble as back up!?

Buer

Niallof9 wrote: »

Well if they don't see the problems we have in our back three...i'm not sure what they are doing. Trimble as back up!?

Yes, Trimble. The bloke who is 32, captain of Ulster and has 75 international caps including playing a significant role in the autumn tests 6 months ago is (shock and gasp) considered good enough to be back up.

Niallof9

Buer wrote: »

Yes, Trimble. The bloke who is 32, captain of Ulster and has 75 international caps including playing a significant role in the autumn tests 6 months ago is (shock and gasp) considered good enough to be back up.

I really like Trimble but he's not an option for Japan. Its a mistake not to bring Sweetnam or Byrne. No two ways about it.

Former Former

Niallof9 wrote: »

I really like Trimble but he's not an option for Japan. Its a mistake not to bring Sweetnam or Byrne. No two ways about it.

You're taking the piss, right?

molloyjh

mfceiling wrote: »

I'm not casting any doubts on Joe's latest selection...very good picks all round.

I just wonder about form sometimes. Take CJ for instance. Before he got capped he was ripping it up in the league but when it was suggested he was in great form you get "ah sure the league is no great barometer of where he's at"..."maybe 15 mins off the bench against Italy and Scotland"..."once POM comes back he'll have to make do with the bench". Turns out he is well able for international rugby and his league form could transfer to the big stage with a run of games under his belt.

Would TOH or Dillane have settled in to the team as easily if they got 6 or 7 games?

Ringrose got his run of games and again he hasn't looked out of place bar the odd mistake which almost every player will occasionally make.

Did they make it solely because of their good form for their province though? I don't think anyone is saying discount form entirely. We're just saying that it isn't everything.

Niallof9 wrote: »

Its a tough one. I really like ROL but he hasn't done more than AB if he's being picked at wing. If Joe hadn't fupped up originally with Bowe and McFadden selections maybe it wouldn't have been as tough.

ROL is being selected to cover centre. We have precious few outside centres available at the moment and that's what ROL is. Bowe and McFadden aren't at all relevant to his selection.

I, and most others, disagreed with Bowes selection during the 6Ns, but McFadden was never selected to play. He was selected to train. Bring in a new guy and you've to guide him through the sessions when all you want to focus on is winning the England game. Bring in McFadden and you don't need to do any hand holding and can focus completely on the game ahead.

Niallof9 wrote: »

Well if they don't see the problems we have in our back three...i'm not sure what they are doing. Trimble as back up!?

What has Trimble got to do with this conversation. He wasn't selected. Plenty of people have discussed our back three situation over the last while. We need to bring through a few, but it's not like we've nobody there. Rob Kearney isn't completely yet (much and all as many want him to be), Payne is an excellent option, Zebo and Earls are still both quality options and Dave Kearney is a solid (if unspectacular) back up to have available. We now have Stockdale and Conway coming in with TOH looking to continue to make his case. Adeolokun got a look in during the November internationals. ROL is getting a look in as a centre-cum-winger.

Tbh you're complaint seems to be that we haven't selected every half decent back three player we have in the country as soon as they show a hint of form for their province. If that's where your expectation level is then it's wildly unrealistic. And or your own sake you'd be far better off rowing back from it. You don't just throw loads of guys in and hey presto they're all internationals. That's just not how it works.

irishbucsfan

Form doesn't exist. It's a mythical fairy.

Buer

Niallof9 wrote: »

I really like Trimble but he's not an option for Japan. Its a mistake not to bring Sweetnam or Byrne. No two ways about it.

He'll be back up to Earls and Zebo next season and potentially in the mix for Japan at 34, in reality. He certainly won't be starting or in the 23 but I would not rule him out at this point at all. There hasn't been a massive drop in his performance levels and, until that happens, he's in the mix.

The coaching team are working towards the RWC. They want a number of players for each position of the team to ensure they've depth and coverage. I would imagine something along the lines of 9 players for the back three. They will be more than happy with a good number of guys already and will seek to add one or two others into the mix.

RK, Payne, Earls, Trimble, Zebo and DK are the ones that they are comfortable with in the set up, I would guess. After that, they're probably looking to develop TOH, Conway and Stockdale.

Given that there's a large degree of potential to interchange within the back three, I would think only 6 of those would ever be really needed for the actual RWC squad. 7 back three players went to the last RWC (including Payne) and that probably would have been less if Earls and Fitzgerald weren't doubling as cover for midfield.

There comes a point where you have enough players who you trust in a position and the plan is to work with them rather than try to bring in additional guys to see if they work out and using up valuable game time.

Former Former

mfceiling wrote: »

I'm not casting any doubts on Joe's latest selection...very good picks all round.

I just wonder about form sometimes. Take CJ for instance. Before he got capped he was ripping it up in the league but when it was suggested he was in great form you get "ah sure the league is no great barometer of where he's at"..."maybe 15 mins off the bench against Italy and Scotland"..."once POM comes back he'll have to make do with the bench". Turns out he is well able for international rugby and his league form could transfer to the big stage with a run of games under his belt.

Would TOH or Dillane have settled in to the team as easily if they got 6 or 7 games?

Ringrose got his run of games and again he hasn't looked out of place bar the odd mistake which almost every player will occasionally make.

Yeah, fair enough. But this is why we have a management team; to separate the CJ Standers from the TOHs. If everyone who put in a decent run at Pro12 level was given 6 or 7 games for Ireland, where does that end?

There are players - like Stander, like Ringrose - who can come in and instantly skip the 'queue', who can reproduce their provincial form at national level. And there are players who can't.

The idea that Pro12 form entitles you to a chance is just not correct, it's never going to be. Stander and Ringrose did not get parachuted into the team on Pro12 form alone. Any of the players who've been repeatedly omitted have major flaws in their game; MAJOR flaws. If they can resolve them, great. If not, they'll stay on the fringes until they're pushed out by newer players.

Niallof9

Former Former wrote: »

You're taking the piss, right?

NO i'm not are you?

Niallof9

Buer wrote: »

He'll be back up to Earls and Zebo next season and potentially in the mix for Japan at 34, in reality. He certainly won't be starting or in the 23 but I would not rule him out at this point at all. There hasn't been a massive drop in his performance levels and, until that happens, he's in the mix.

The coaching team are working towards the RWC. They want a number of players for each position of the team to ensure they've depth and coverage. I would imagine something along the lines of 9 players for the back three. They will be more than happy with a good number of guys already and will seek to add one or two others into the mix.

RK, Payne, Earls, Trimble, Zebo and DK are the ones that they are comfortable with in the set up, I would guess. After that, they're probably looking to develop TOH, Conway and Stockdale.

Given that there's a large degree of potential to interchange within the back three, I would think only 6 of those would ever be really needed for the actual RWC squad. 7 back three players went to the last RWC (including Payne) and that probably would have been less if Earls and Fitzgerald weren't doubling as cover for midfield.

There comes a point where you have enough players who you trust in a position and the plan is to work with them rather than try to bring in additional guys to see if they work out and using up valuable game time.

All i can say is i'm glad the likes of you and former former aren't involved in selection. Two years in rugby is an age loads of things can happen. But i can guarantee Trimble won't be in the mix. I really hope you aren't involved in any rugby slections at club or schools level. Your judgement of players and selection criteria boggles the mind really.

How is Dave Kearney comfortable in selection, the bloke has proved nothing really and has been injured for the past two seasons.

Adam Byrne and Sweetnam can feel rightly aggrieved to be left out. When Bowe was selected in Feb...it was like "oh they will tour japan" etc etc. Come next Novemeber the usual crew will be like oh you can't select Stockdale, as it was only USA and Japan and you can't select Byrne or Sweetnam cause they doesn't have experience.

Its a perpetual joke and so boring to listen/read you guys defend the indefensible.

Same guys had cuts off Zebo for years. Now he's undroppable ( he should be fullback)

Or Ringrose should be dropped for Payne at 13.

AbusesToilets

Former Former wrote: »

Yeah, fair enough. But this is why we have a management team; to separate the CJ Standers from the TOHs. If everyone who put in a decent run at Pro12 level was given 6 or 7 games for Ireland, where does that end?

There are players - like Stander, like Ringrose - who can come in and instantly skip the 'queue', who can reproduce their provincial form at national level. And there are players who can't.

The idea that Pro12 form entitles you to a chance is just not correct, it's never going to be. Stander and Ringrose did not get parachuted into the team on Pro12 form alone. Any of the players who've been repeatedly omitted have major flaws in their game; MAJOR flaws. If they can resolve them, great. If not, they'll stay on the fringes until they're pushed out by newer players.

The problem with that reasoning is certain players never get a chance to show whether they can do it or not. Ringrose and Stander benefited from a injury to those ahead of them, which allowed them an opening that they would otherwise wouldn't have had.

Likewise, stating that certain players aren't selected due to perceived flaws in their game is accurate. However, that logic is undermined when players who continue to be found lacking are selected over others who are in better form at club level.

The argument goes round and round. Player X hasn't proven himself at a higher level, but is never afforded an honest shake at it, so continues to never prove himself at a higher level.

thomond2006

Adam Byrne and Sweetnam were left out because the players ahead of them weren't selected for the Lions.

molloyjh

Niallof9 wrote: »

[Its a perpetual joke and so boring to listen/read you guys defend the indefensible.

Well you don't have to read it. I humbly apologise that we aren't all the rugby savants that you are and haven't simply bowed to your greater knowledge of the game which you display with such style, penache and humility. You certainly have the best words. You're arguments are terrific. And no other wise and wonderful poster has been treated more unfairly.

irishbucsfan

Niallof9 wrote: »

I really hope you aren't involved in any rugby slections at club or schools level.

How did I only just realise now who this is

Buer

Niallof9 wrote: »

All i can say is i'm glad the likes of you and former former aren't involved in selection. Two years in rugby is an age loads of things can happen. But i can guarantee Trimble won't be in the mix. I really hope you aren't involved in any rugby slections at club or schools level. Your judgement of players and selection criteria boggles the mind really.

You can't guarantee anything. And, as I've already pointed out, I'm not saying he'll be in the squad but he is in the group of players that is going to be in contention for one of those spots and will be one of the wingers getting game time between now and then.

All you're doing is sticking your fingers in your ears whilst saying people are wrong. You're also failing to separate what I'm saying is the case and what I would like to see personally.

The two lads can feel aggrieved but only in so far as that they weren't the ones chosen to go ahead of Conway and Stockdale. If they did, someone would be on here making the exact same argument for those two. Or TOH if he was left out. Unless you reckon Zebo and Earls were going to be left out and we'd go with an entirely unknown back three division?

Can you not understand that there are a limited number of spots available for the squads and in terms of trying to build a wider group for the RWC? And that not every player is going to be in that group if the coaching team feel they have sufficient numbers in that area?

Former Former

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The problem with that reasoning is certain players never get a chance to show whether they can do it or not. Ringrose and Stander benefited from a injury to those ahead of them, which allowed them an opening that they would otherwise wouldn't have had.

Likewise, stating that certain players aren't selected due to perceived flaws in their game is accurate. However, that logic is undermined when players who continue to be found lacking are selected over others who are in better form at club level.

The argument goes round and round. Player X hasn't proven himself at a higher level, but is never afforded an honest shake at it, so continues to never prove himself at a higher level.

Yeah, it is going round and round. It's the idea of the 'honest shake' that I don't agree with. You simply can't do it for everyone, there has to be a system for saying "Player X is worthy of a spot, player Y is not". And that's what training camps are for.

sydthebeat

some posters wont be happy until we're capping SCT level guys because 'they're in from'......

its really ridiculous that Joe brings 6 back 3 players on tour and 50% of them are uncapped... yet is considered not enough by some