Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

thomond2006

I'd be surprised if RK is on the Lions standby list. Liam Williams was selected as a winger but is an established fullback who can play there if needed. Watson and Nowell cover 15 too I think.

typhoony

Former Former wrote: »

I don't want to make this about specific players, but if guys have been around the squad for a while and can't get traction, then it's time to move on from them.

define "traction"

KBurke85

Neil3030 wrote: »

Kearney really made strides in his ground-based attacking game this season under Leocaster, I think if he returns to fitness he could offer our most balanced full-back option for another few seasons.

It could be a big if based on the past few years.

wp_rathead

Former Former wrote: »

I don't want to make this about specific players, but if guys have been around the squad for a while and can't get traction, then it's time to move on from them.

Wait wait wait
That makes zero sense to me
We always go on about "players need to learn Joe's systems"
This is the perfect time to use those players who are familiar with the Irish set up but haven't got opportunity to play

whatawaster

I would personally leave out Gilroy and Luke Marshall. Both have seriously stagnated and I don't think either are ever going to become regular internationals. Would much rather Stockdale, Byrne, O'Loughlin or Sweetnam to travel ahead of them.

Neil3030

wp_rathead wrote: »

Wait wait wait
That makes zero sense to me
We always go on about "players need to learn Joe's systems"
This is the perfect time to use those players who are familiar with the Irish set up but haven't got opportunity to play

If this were Twitter I'd sticky this:

Players SHOULD tour on developmental tours such as this one to the USA/Japan if:

- They are fit, available first team players.
- They are fit, available players who have not yet reached their ceiling (this includes completely experimental young lads through to guys like Marmion/VDF).

Players should NOT tour on developmental tours such as this one to the USA/Japan if:

- They have hit their ceiling, have been in camp several times, and have not done enough to establish themselves amongst the best players in their position (Roux, Bent).

awec

Buer wrote: »

I think people are going to be disappointed in relation to the back three progress made in the short term. We have a good few options in that area. I don't think the coaches are going to view it as an area in desperate need of attention. Payne, Zebo, Kearney and Earls will occupy those spots comfortably. Then there are a number of guys who are capped and the coaches would be comfortable with having on the bench in the 6N as we've seen already.

I think we might see one young player become a real option over the next year, starting this summer. Another may tour this summer also but I don't believe the coaching team see the need there as much as most punters do and there are going to be some disappointed fans.

They'll have a much stronger eye on lock, No. 8, outhalf and inside centre I reckon. Those are the areas that, if we suffer a single injury, we're going to be in difficulty in terms of depth.

Can't really accept this. Only Italy have a worse back three than Ireland in the six nations, if this isn't seen as an area of weakness by the IRFU then that's pretty bizarre. If our back three were a colour they'd be biege. Bland, boring and unimaginative.

Back three and lock are comfortably the worst areas of our team.

Former Former

wp_rathead wrote: »

Wait wait wait
That makes zero sense to me
We always go on about "players need to learn Joe's systems"
This is the perfect time to use those players who are familiar with the Irish set up but haven't got opportunity to play

I think this "he knows the systems" thing is always thrown up by people looking for an explanation as to why their preferred player was not picked.

I don't think it has any basis in fact at all. I certainly think it's a load of bollocks.

wp_rathead

Former Former wrote: »

I think this "he knows the systems" thing is always thrown up by people looking for an explanation as to why their preferred player was not picked.

I don't think it has any basis in fact at all. I certainly think it's a load of bollocks.

Used by people to explain inclusion of McFadden in squads mainly

irishbucsfan

wp_rathead wrote: »

Used by people to explain inclusion of McFadden in squads mainly

Last time, all I saw was people using it jokingly to make fun of other people who didn't exist.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'd be surprised if RK is on the Lions standby list. Liam Williams was selected as a winger but is an established fullback who can play there if needed. Watson and Nowell cover 15 too I think.

At the very least he's one of the players that has signed the requisite documentation to join the Lions tour along with a couple of other players at Leinster (not sure about the other provinces).

He may not be next in line, but he is on the formal shortlist.

Former Former

wp_rathead wrote: »

Used by people to explain inclusion of McFadden in squads mainly

Aaaaaand we're back to McFadden. My "I don't want to make this about specific players" thing worked then.

But yeah, it is.

It's used by people who wanted other players to be picked to explain to themselves why McFadden got the call up so they don't have to face the facts that the player they're pimping isn't good enough.

but going back to your previous post. You said

wp_rathead wrote: »

This is the perfect time to use those players who are familiar with the Irish set up but haven't got opportunity to play

Who?

Buer

awec wrote: »

Can't really accept this.

Which is neither here nor there. The coaching team appear to have complete confidence in the likes of Earls and Zebo on the wings as well as Payne and RK at full back.

They will seek to develop one, maybe two more options for the wing before the next RWC and supplement them with what they already have (Gilroy, DK etc.) to give them about 6 or 7 lads they're going to work with towards the RWC.

I'd be very happy to see Sweetnam, Byrne and Stockdale all travel but I don't see it happening.

At somewhere like lock we have Toner and Henderson. After that we have Dillane (1 start), Roux (1 start) etc. If we pick up an injury, we're very quickly into a sticky situation without developing people in the very near future. I'd say we're in a similar situation at outhalf.

Former Former

Former Former wrote: »

Aaaaaand we're back to McFadden. My "I don't want to make this about specific players" thing worked then.

But yeah, it is.

It's used by people who wanted other players to be picked to explain to themselves why McFadden got the call up so they don't have to face the facts that the player they're pimping isn't good enough.

McFadden is actually a good example though. The biggest outrage I saw against McFadden was when he was picked ahead of McCloskey for the Italy game last year.

But now one of those two players is starting in a European semi-final and the other isn't even first choice for his province in the pro12.

It really highlights that forum opinions can be way off but also that consistency of performance is something only some players have and something that coaches value.

wp_rathead

wp_rathead wrote: »

Sweetnam, Stockdale and Adam Byrne aren't good enough?

To use Buer's point:

Buer wrote: »

Which is neither here nor there. The coaching team appear to have complete confidence in the likes of Earls and Zebo on the wings as well as Payne and RK at full back.

I can't speak for Stockdale, but I've seen Adam Byrne and Sweetnam go missing in games completely and switch off at times defensively.

They can mix it up really well but they aren't consistent like the players Buer mentioned who always show up and do a job, especially at top international level.

People tend to look at one aspect of a players game without acknowledging everything about what they do and importantly don't do.

It comes down to this, do you want a 7/10 player who is always 100% or a 9/10 player who some times gives 60% performances.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

McFadden is actually a good example though. The biggest outrage I saw against McFadden was when he was picked ahead of McCloskey for the Italy game last year.

But now one of those two players is starting in a European semi-final and the other isn't even first choice for his province in the pro12.

It really highlights that forum opinions can be way off but also that consistency of performance is something only some players have and something that coaches value.

Our opinions can be miles off. Had a chat with someone involved with one of our provinces last weekend in Edinburgh and I asked about a fan favourite who is often overlooked (won't say who or it might be seen as me having a dig, despite me being a fan of him) and the guy was very surprised that I thought he was close to international level. Despite fans often expressing shock that this guy isn't in squads. I think there's a very surprising amount of divergence between us and the guys making the calls at times.

KBurke85

6 nations fixtures out for the next 2 seasons. Away to France game one 2018 and away to England final game 2018.

Home to England game one 2019 and away to Wales final game in 2019

KBurke85

KBurke85 wrote: »

6 nations fixtures out for the next 2 seasons. Away to France game one 2018 and away to England final game 2018.

Home to England game one 2019 and away to Wales final game in 2019

That's tough all around.

I was speaking to a mate a few weeks back and I think we should look to really develop depth in any weak areas next six nations and then aim to win in 2019 at all costs. Go into the RWC with a six nations or slam under our belts would be just what the doctor ordered.

Erik Shin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's tough all around.

I was speaking to a mate a few weeks back and I think we should look to really develop depth in any weak areas next six nations and then aim to win in 2019 at all costs. Go into the RWC with a six nations or slam under our belts would be just what the doctor ordered.

Hang on, hang on!...I just want to clear this up..... you have a mate?!!!

Niallof9

Deleted User wrote: »

That's tough all around.

I was speaking to a mate a few weeks back and I think we should look to really develop depth in any weak areas next six nations and then aim to win in 2019 at all costs. Go into the RWC with a six nations or slam under our belts would be just what the doctor ordered.

There is no question. We absolutely need to produce more options and competition in our back 3, second rows and hooker. anything else is denial and batsh*t crazy.

I don't blame Schmidt entirely. AS someone suggested the lions standby guys will be given guarantees just as central contract gives you certain guarantees. If we see the usual i blame Schmidt, Nucifora AND the IRFU.

thomond2006

The squad is announced today

Former Former

Niallof9 wrote: »

There is no question. We absolutely need to produce more options and competition in our back 3, second rows and hooker. anything else is denial and batsh*t crazy.

I don't blame Schmidt entirely. AS someone suggested the lions standby guys will be given guarantees just as central contract gives you certain guarantees. If we see the usual i blame Schmidt, Nucifora AND the IRFU.

I blame Schmidt entirely. Like, we've only capped five different hookers in the last 12 months. What's he playing at? Only seven second rows and a measly eleven different players in the back three.

hashtag joeout.

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

That's tough all around.

I was speaking to a mate a few weeks back and I think we should look to really develop depth in any weak areas next six nations and then aim to win in 2019 at all costs. Go into the RWC with a six nations or slam under our belts would be just what the doctor ordered.

Well, regardless of that the IRFU will, as always, prioritize doing as well as possible in the 6N. Not that I think developing depth and making a run at the 6N are necessarily mutually exclusive - but the best team is going to be put out every game.

Buer

Porter, Ryan, Treadwell and Heffernan all in as the uncapped forwards....awaiting backs!

Means no space for Molony anyway but his time will come.

Erik Shin

Erik Shin wrote: »

Hang on, hang on!...I just want to clear this up..... you have a mate?!!!

thomond2006

Heffernan, Porter, Treadwell, James Ryan in

irishbucsfan

Its really mad that Ryan is in the squad. Really interested to hear Joe's input on that and what they're expecting from him.

Former Former

reland Squad Summer Tour 2017 - USA & Japan

Forwards
Finlay Bealham (Buccaneers/Connacht) 6 caps
Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 1 cap
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 67 caps
Dave Heffernan (Connacht/Buccaneers)*
Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 17 caps
Dan Leavy (UCD/Leinster) 2 caps
Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster) 12 caps
Jack O'Donoghue (UL Bohemians/Munster) 1 cap
Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster)*
Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster) 13 caps
James Ryan (UCD/Leinster)*
John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 6 caps
Niall Scannell (Dolphin/Munster) 4 caps
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 47 caps
James Tracy (UCD/Leinster) 2 caps
Kieran Treadwell (Ballymena/Ulster)*
Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster) 7 caps

Backs
Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Leinster) 3 caps
Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 1 cap
John Cooney (Connacht)*
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 59 caps
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster) 23 caps
Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) 13 caps
Luke Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster) 9 caps
Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster) 1 cap
Tiernan O'Halloran (Buccaneers/Connacht) 3 caps
Rory O'Loughlin (Old Belvedere/Leinster)*
Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 8 caps
Rory Scannell (Dolphin/Munster)*
Jacob Stockdale (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) 33 caps

thomond2006

Stockdale, ROL, Cooney, Rory Scannell in

Buer

Uncapped backs: ROL, Stockdale, Cooney and Scannell. No places for Sweetnam or Byrne.

Very experimental squad with a large dash of experience. Great squad to see.

Hasn't played in the pro12. Brought into the Ireland set up by the most conservative coach Ireland has ever had.

irishbucsfan

Squad

Ireland Squad Summer Tour 2017 – USA & Japan

Finlay Bealham (Buccaneers/Connacht) 6 caps
Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Leinster) 3 caps
Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 1 cap
Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 1 cap
John Cooney (Connacht) uncapped
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 59 caps
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 67 caps
Dave Heffernan (Connacht/Buccaneers) uncapped
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster) 23 caps
Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 17 caps
Dan Leavy (UCD/Leinster) 2 caps
Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) 13 caps
Luke Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster) 9 caps
Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster) 1 cap
Tommy O’Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster) 12 caps
Jack O’Donoghue (UL Bohemians/Munster) 1 cap
Tiernan O’Halloran (Buccaneers/Connacht) 3 caps
Rory O’Loughlin (Old Belvedere/Leinster) uncapped
Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) uncapped
Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 8 caps
Rhys Ruddock (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 13 caps
James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) uncapped
John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 6 caps
Niall Scannell (Dolphin/Munster) 4 caps
Rory Scannell (Dolphin/Munster) uncapped
Jacob Stockdale (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) uncapped
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 47 caps
James Tracey (UCD/Leinster) 2 caps
Kieran Treadwell (Ballymena/Ulster) uncapped
Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster) 7 caps
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) 33 caps

Former Former

Wow, did NOT see that coming.

Trimble the biggest omission. Sean Cronin too.

Podge_irl

Is O'Loughlin in as a centre? Surprised he's there ahead of Byrne otherwise.

irishbucsfan

Tracy

AbusesToilets

Good squad, can't complain about that.



Yet...

thomond2006

Delighted with that really.

Buer

I think they've got that absolutely bang on. Very green squad, particularly in the backs.

Jackson is going to need to really step up there.

Clegg

Harsh on Byrne, I wonder what is is that Joe thinks he needs to work on. He has the attacking game to match or better any of our outside backs. Delighted for RoL, Stockdale and Ryan. Porter too. They must have high hopes for himself and Ryan if they're bringing both.

dropping_bombs

Big congrats to Dave Heffernan, he has really been showing huge potential since his conversion to hooker from back row. Great work rate around the pitch and a hard ball carrier.

Sanjuro

Podge_irl wrote: »

Is O'Loughlin in as a centre? Surprised he's there ahead of Byrne otherwise.

Plays centre and wing.

Buer

Podge_irl wrote: »

Is O'Loughlin in as a centre? Surprised he's there ahead of Byrne otherwise.

Yup, thought that he might get the nod when Olding was injured alright. Has had a great season. Big reward.

thomond2006

TOD is a bit of a surprise. No Sean Cronin is a shocker actually.

connemara man

Former Former wrote: »

reland Squad Summer Tour 2017 - USA & Japan

Forwards
Finlay Bealham (Buccaneers/Connacht) 6 caps
Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 1 cap
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 67 caps
Dave Heffernan (Connacht/Buccaneers)*
Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 17 caps
Dan Leavy (UCD/Leinster) 2 caps
Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster) 12 caps
Jack O'Donoghue (UL Bohemians/Munster) 1 cap
Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster)*
Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster) 13 caps
James Ryan (UCD/Leinster)*
John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 6 caps
Niall Scannell (Dolphin/Munster) 4 caps
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 47 caps
James Tracy (UCD/Leinster) 2 caps
Kieran Treadwell (Ballymena/Ulster)*
Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster) 7 caps

Backs
Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Leinster) 3 caps
Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 1 cap
John Cooney (Connacht)*
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 59 caps
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster) 23 caps
Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) 13 caps
Luke Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster) 9 caps
Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster) 1 cap
Tiernan O'Halloran (Buccaneers/Connacht) 3 caps
Rory O'Loughlin (Old Belvedere/Leinster)*
Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 8 caps
Rory Scannell (Dolphin/Munster)*
Jacob Stockdale (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) 33 caps

Can't argue against that really. Odd that Ryan is there without a pro start, Heffernan is a surprise given that he's mainly used from the bench, I'm disappointed for Buckley but I've spoken to coaches and understand why he hasn't been picked before or now ( doesn't mean I like it though) back 3 depth is the main need from this tour so I'm happy to see good performances given a chance in camp

Buer

An additional player is going to be added after the semi finals...

Worth noting that no captain has been named. Rob Kearney might well be that man.

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

Wow, did NOT see that coming.

Trimble the biggest omission. Sean Cronin too.

Sean Cronin is a big surprise for me... Surely he must have an injury or something? Noone really saw that coming.

thomond2006

The players that we need to move on from in the next year or so aren't there. I'm thrilled. It's a very progressive selection with enough established players there to maintain continuity.

case885

Espn901/scrights will be looking for his apology

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

TOD is a bit of a surprise. No Sean Cronin is a shocker actually.

Yes, Tommy hadn't a great season , Cronin was listed recently as having a neck injury

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

TOD is a bit of a surprise. No Sean Cronin is a shocker actually.

Who is there to call up aside from TOD? SOB2, I guess?

TOD is the one guy that does stand out as a bit of a bag carrier, though. Tracy lucky enough too, for me.

Cronin isn't there but he has barely played this year. Would imagine he's still very much in plans.