TDs have voted to make it compulsory to stand during the Dail prayer

PopePalpatine

Beyondgone wrote: »

Oddly, much as it may annoy the atheists, Muslims, Wickens and Hari-Krishnas, Ireland is a Catholic country. It's part of the National fabric. The idea of fecking that fabric out the window may suit some trendy ideals, but a swift trip to your local Catholic church any given Saturday evening/sunday morning will reveal that loads don't agree. So they get to stand and have a pray. When in Rome and all that jazz. GTFOI time?

Then I'm sure you'd have no problem finding the bit in the Constitution defining Ireland as one.

Oddly, much as it may annoy the "GTFO heathens out of m'holy Catholic Ireland" types, Ireland was the first country to approve same-sex marriage by referendum, contrary to Catholic doctrines.

Beyondgone

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Then I'm sure you'd have no problem finding the bit in the Constitution defining Ireland as one.

Oddly, much as it may annoy the "GTFO heathens out of m'holy Catholic Ireland" types, Ireland was the first country to approve same-sex marriage by referendum, contrary to Catholic doctrines.

I go by reality, not bits of paper. Reality is Ireland is Catholic. Much as that boils the trendies p1ss.

PopePalpatine

How does not forcing every TD to stand up for the Dail prayer undermine the "national fabric" (or as someone else verbosely and turgidly put it, "sacrifices it on the progressives' altar")?

VinLieger

Beyondgone wrote: »

I go by reality, not bits of paper. Reality is Ireland is Catholic. Much as that boils the trendies p1ss.

Reality is less than 25% of the population of a supposedly catholic country attend mass on a weekly basis, and thats the churches figures

Donal55

Something new in the Dail. A distraction I spose from Garda Corruption and Homelessness.

Beyondgone

VinLieger wrote: »

Reality is less than 25% of the population of a supposedly catholic country attend mass on a weekly basis, and thats the churches figures

The best 25%.

dav3

'Ireland is a catholic country' means very little to most people these days. If it truly meant something then things such as contraception, divorce and same-sex marriage would still be illegal.
Attitudes are changing. People no longer want to see politicians praying and pledging allegiance to god, to any god, and asking for guidance when making their decisions. Especially when that particular organisation has left behind a path of destruction in it's wake over the centuries, especially when those debates may be in relation to the influence the church has over the state, especially when we have archbishops attempting to influence state decisions even in modern day Ireland.

Ireland, the land of special handshakes, coverups, nods and winks and nobody rocking the boat.

For the record...

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/05/04/the-prayer-stays/

An amendment proposed by Sinn Féin called for TDs to stand for 60 seconds of silent reflection at the start of each day’s business was defeated by 94 votes to 41.

A Solidarity/People Before Profit proposal for TDs to abolish the prayer being said at the start of each day’s Dáil business was defeated 97 votes to 15 with 20 abstentions.

A proposal from Solidarity/People Before Profit TD Joan Collins to replace the daily prayer with 30 seconds of silent reflection was also defeated by 96 votes to 19, with 17 abstentions.

However...

TDs voted in the Dáil 97-18 to add 30 seconds of silent reflection to the daily Dáil prayer, which is said in English and Irish at the start of each day’s proceedings. There were 18 abstentions.

TDs will also have to stand during this period.

The names of who voted how are in the link posted. There are no surprises.

VinLieger

dav3 wrote: »

'Ireland is a catholic country' means very little to most people these days. If it truly meant something then things such as contraception, divorce and same-sex marriage would still be illegal.
Attitudes are changing. People no longer want to see politicians praying and pledging allegiance to god, to any god, and asking for guidance when making their decisions. Especially when that particular organisation has left behind a path of destruction in it's wake over the centuries, especially when those debates may be in relation to the influence the church has over the state, especially when we have archbishops attempting to influence state decisions even in modern day Ireland.

Ireland, the land of special handshakes, coverups, nods and winks and nobody rocking the boat.

For the record...

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/05/04/the-prayer-stays/



However...



The names of who voted how are in the link posted. There are no surprises.

Have sinn fein got a good reason for abstaining?

VinLieger

Beyondgone wrote: »

The best 25%.

Judge not lest ye be judged?

lawred2

RobertKK wrote: »

So it is celebrated these days as the birth of Christ, only you want to argue the current Irish state was founded in Pagan times?

What is the actual threat mandated?

lol

You have serious comprehension problems. Where on earth did you get that from?

Peregrine

Manach wrote: »

Nothing unusual about the typical AH reaction to anything that smacks of deference to a nation's traditions that are still held in place of honour by a segment of the people. Concepts that had held a nation together are being frayed and thorn on the progressive's altar of their notation of modernity.

Oh, get off your high horse, Manach. Forcing non-believers to stand for your prayers at the threat of being stripped of pay being described as "a nation's traditions" and "concepts that held a nation together". Listen to yourself.

If the progressive's alter of modernity is fraying and thorning your precious concepts to grant people religious freedom then I'll have a few courses of that.

Zaph

Having a prayer before business starts is ridiculous in this day and age, but tacking on an extra 30 seconds for "reflection" is just laughable. We'll now be treated to the sight of a bunch of TDs standing around like lemons for half a minute. Maybe religious people are happy to reflect on things after their prayer, but I know personally that I'd have as much interest in reflecting on whatever as I would in praying. There's also the question of what happens to the TDs who don't want to get involved in this farce. Will they all hang around outside until those inside are done before trooping in? And if so, how much is that going to further disrupt proceedings while they're all getting settled? Just get the buggers into the chamber and to work as quickly as possible. It also discriminates against anyone who isn't a practising Catholic wanting to become Ceann Comhairle, as presumably no non-Catholics will want to get involved with Catholic prayers.

hatrickpatrick

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't understand why they keep making public blunders like this. Nobody would bat an eyelid if they opened a simple chapel, I'm actually surprised there isn't a chapel in the dail, it kind of shows they don't really care about praying just looking like they're praying.

Taking the "if you didn't send a snapchat from the gym, you didn't go to the gym today at all" approach to religion :pac:

Our government seems to be following what I call Netanyahu's law of calculus: As one's PR image slides, one apparently cares less and less about maintaining it, let alone.repairing it.

hatrickpatrick

Manach wrote: »

Nothing unusual about the typical AH reaction to anything that smacks of deference to a nation's traditions that are still held in place of honour by a segment of the people. Concepts that had held a nation together are being frayed and thorn on the progressive's altar of their notation of modernity.

Peregrine wrote: »

Oh, get off your high horse, Manach. Forcing non-believers to stand for your prayers at the threat of being stripped of pay being described as "a nation's traditions" and "concepts that held a nation together". Listen to yourself.

If the progressive's alter of modernity is fraying and thorning your precious concepts to grant people religious freedom then I'll have a few courses of that.

Manach, the bolded aspect of Peregrine's reply I've quoted is the key aspect. Whatever you think about having a prayer in the Dáil, can we at least all agree that threatening to not only dock pay but to exclude our public representatives from performing their duties by taking part in debates, voting on bills etc if they refuse to observe it is absolutely outrageous?

Supposing somebody runs on a manifesto of secularism - unlikely at the moment but let's just suppose their main policy platform revolves around removing all religious influence from how the state is run (schools, hospitals, childcare etc). Now suppose that person gets elected. If the secularism was the main focus point of their election campaign, it is fair to say that they were primarily elected on that basis. For them to then participate in a public religious ceremony in the Dáil - while at work, after all - would be a very clear, direct, and specific dereliction of their duty to represent their constituents and to stand for the values on which they were elected.

Therefore, in light of this new ruling, that TD would ironically (in a face-palming sort of way) be banned from doing their job - for the offence of actually doing their job in the first place.

That is one illustration of why this kind of thing is a terrible idea.

hatrickpatrick

ScumLord wrote: »

It's compulsory to stand according to the OP. So either stay out or prey?

This typo gave me a mental image of the Ceann Comhairle standing at the entrance to the chamber with a large box paintballing rifles, saying "right folks, either get involved or get out"

Peregrinus

ScumLord wrote: »

It's compulsory to stand according to the OP. So either stay out or prey?

No. Either stay out or stand. In both cases, whether you pray or not is up to you

ScumLord wrote: »

What happens if you refuse to stand?

The Ceann Comhairly will reprimand you.

pjohnson

22 pages of outrage over tds voting to "stand'. Any wonder we have obesity issues?

LordSutch

pjohnson wrote: »

Approaching 3pm....yup its time for boards anti-catholic thread!

pjohnson wrote: »

Approaching 3pm....yup its time for boards anti-catholic thread!

The prayer . . .

"Direct, we beseech Thee, O Lord, our actions by Thy holy inspirations and carry them on by Thy gracious assistance; that every word and work of ours may always begin from Thee, and by Thee be happily ended; through Christ Our Lord.
Amen."

But is it specifically a "Catholic" prayer?
Looks more like an all encompassing Christian prayer to me, which is fair enough.

stefanovich

howamidifferent wrote:

Backwards we go...How is this even conceivable, we have the #TechCork17 summit taking place while these mopes vote to stay in the stone age....

It's called respect.

Peregrinus

LordSutch wrote: »

The prayer . . .

"Direct, we beseech Thee, O Lord, our actions by Thy holy inspirations and carry them on by Thy gracious assistance; that every word and work of ours may always begin from Thee, and by Thee be happily ended; through Christ Our Lord.
Amen."

But is it specifically a "Catholic" prayer?
Looks more like an all encompassing Christian prayer to me, which is fair enough.

I can see why a non-Catholic Christian might be more comfortable with an inclusively Christian prayer rather than an exclusively Catholic prayer. But it might not be "fair enough" from the perspective of a Jewish citizen, a Muslim citizen, a non-religious citizen, or even a citizen of any religious belief who thought that the institutions of the state should be secular.

stefanovich

The_Valeyard wrote:

It's an optional prayer before work begins, no one is forced to attend.

Exactly. Are these other posters suggesting that non religious TDs attend and remain seated as a sign of disrespect?

LordSutch

Peregrinus wrote: »

LordSutch wrote: »

The prayer . . .

"Direct, we beseech Thee, O Lord, our actions by Thy holy inspirations and carry them on by Thy gracious assistance; that every word and work of ours may always begin from Thee, and by Thee be happily ended; through Christ Our Lord.
Amen."

But is it specifically a "Catholic" prayer?
Looks more like an all encompassing Christian prayer to me, which is fair enough.

I can see why a non-Catholic Christian might be more comfortable with an inclusively Christian prayer rather than an exclusively Catholic prayer. But it might not be "fair enough" from the perspective of a Jewish citizen, a Muslim citizen, a non-religious citizen, or even a citizen of any religious belief who thought that the institutions of the state should be secular.

Maybe, you might be right? But this country like many was built on Christian values, hence a Christian prayer.
I would have been hopping mad if it was a specific RC prayer, but it's not.

Ireland claims to be a Christian country.
Most Irish people claim to belong to one Christian Church or another.

I do see your point though.

tomwaterford

LordSutch wrote: »

Ireland claims to be a Christian country.
Most Irish people claim to belong to one Christian Church or another.

Afaik the Irish constitution gives equal rights to all religions??

Whatll happen the day a muslim/Hindu/etc is elected?



They really havnt much to be doing/bothering them in the dail,if they have time to be arseing about with pointless things like this?

tomwaterford

stefanovich wrote: »

Exactly. Are these other posters suggesting that non religious TDs attend and remain seated as a sign of disrespect?

In much the same way,as when I go to mass/had priests attend school....I wouldn't kneel (have too much self respect)

I dont see why anyone should have to stand for prayer.....if this went on in Saudi Arabia/some other arab country etc...,people would be up in arms as its a backward step

Peregrinus

LordSutch wrote: »

Maybe, you might be right? But this country like many was built on Christian values, hence a Christian prayer.
I would have been hopping mad if it was a specific RC prayer, but it's not.

Well, if we're picking nits, while there's no exclusively Catholic statement in it, it is from a Catholic source. It's from the Litany of Saints in the Roman Gradual.

LordSutch wrote: »

Ireland claims to be a Christian country.
Most Irish people claim to belong to one Christian Church or another.

I don't know that Ireland claims to be a Christian country any more than Ireland claims to be a Catholic country. Both statements would be true in the sense that Irish history, culture and society are strongly marked by Christian (or Catholic) influences and beliefs. But the Irish state doesn't aspire to be either Christian or Catholic.

Peregrinus

tomwaterford wrote: »

In much the same way,as when I go to mass/had priests attend school....I wouldn't kneel (have too much self respect)

I dont see why anyone should have to stand for prayer.....if this went on in Saudi Arabia/some other arab country etc...,people would be up in arms as its a backward step

This goes on in lots of countries, including the UK and the US. In fact, the tradition of parliamentary prayers is one that comes to us from Westminster, not from Rome.

It's generally considered polite to respect other people's beliefs, and the expression and practice of them, even if you don't share them; hence the rule about standing. Nobody has to stand for parlaimentary prayers; members don't have to attend at all for prayers, but if they choose to attend they are expected to stand.

The business of trying to present this rule as a personal affront to people who want to attend the prayers but not stand up seems to me (a) to display a keen appetite for victim status, and (b) to completely miss the point. The important issue here is not whether members who choose to attend parliamentary prayers should be expected to stand (for what its' worth, I think that's a perfectly reasonable expectation, and in no sense oppressive to unbelieving members); it's whether parliamentary prayers should be said at all.

infogiver

dav3 wrote: »

What is also worrying is that we have TDs who genuinely believe that god is talking to them and guiding them in the Dáil chamber. If they genuine believe this, and they must if they voted for it today, then it confirms what we already know. We have a large number of insane people that hear voices in their head running the country.

What would god actually say to them in relation to the National Maternity Hospital? I doubt it would be 'Ah yeah lads, that whole Maternity Hospital thing was a bit of a mad idea wasn't it, giving control over to the nuns who ran the Magdalene Laundries and to this day refuse to pay compensation, what was I thinking...lol'.

Perhaps imaginary conversations with god are the least of our worries when we still have the church trying to influence the state and politicians.

From a few months back...

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/archbishop-tells-politicians-not-to-forget-their-faith-during-abortion-debates-757439.html

It must be utterly terrifying for you then when you hear that prayers are said before the business of governing many of the most powerful countries on the planet, and that many of the people with a lot of power are God/deity botherers in one way or another.
But it's surely a comfort to you that the ruler of N Korea doesn't bother any deity at all, and he's fine.

tomwaterford

Peregrinus wrote: »

This goes on in lots of countries, including the UK and the US. In fact, the tradition of parliamentary prayers is one that comes to us from Westminster, not from Rome.

It's generally considered polite to respect other people's beliefs, and the expression and practice of them, even if you don't share them; hence the rule about standing. Nobody has to stand for parlaimentary prayers;

Surly it's long since time to drop the prayer thing now???



I taught the new rules says the exact opposite??

Peregrinus

tomwaterford wrote: »

Surly it's long since time to drop the prayer thing now???

Yes.

tomwaterford wrote: »

I taught the new rules says the exact opposite??

In the sense that the exact opposite of dropping it is not dropping it, yes.

But, in that sense, not discussing the issue at all would also be the "exact opposite" of dropping it.

Perhaps this thread has been poisoned by the title, which focusses on the fact that the practice of standing for the prayers (which has always been observed) has now been incorporated into Standing Orders.

The practice of standing is unobjectionable, and I cannot take seriously a suggesting that incorporating it into Standing Orders is oppressive. But this focus on the standing has led to the whole discussion focussing on the members of the Dail, and the supposed injury done to unbelieving members.

That's not the point. The point is whether having parliamentary prayers does an injury to the republic. As far as that goes, standing or not standing is a giant red herring.

dav3

infogiver wrote: »

It must be utterly terrifying for you then when you hear that prayers are said before the business of governing many of the most powerful countries on the planet, and that many of the people with a lot of power are God/deity botherers in one way or another.
But it's surely a comfort to you that the ruler of N Korea doesn't bother any deity at all, and he's fine.

More worrying than terrifying. Worried that our elected representatives have chosen to continue saying prayers and forcing people to stand before conducting important debates relating to abuse in the catholic church, attempts by the catholic church to gain control of the National Maternity Hospital and a possible abortion referendum. Their actions and future actions in the current Dáil are a cause for concern.

One thing that people take heart from, is that at this very moment in time in history, Ireland will never be more religious than it is right now. Tomorrow it will be less religious than it is today, and the day after that it will be less religious again. Until eventually we will have a situation where religion will no longer play a part in dictating how people should live their lives in this country.