My experience of ticketing on Irish PT as a visitor

murphaph

Ok, not a rant (already ranted to myself earlier lol) but a short account of my experience today taking a day trip into town with my missus, our son and my mother.

So, I decide this morning that I'm not gonna be a chump and invest in a Leap card as I'm home often enough that I can accept the deposit charge.

I go to the local shop and explain that 3 adults and 1 child want to go into town and back. I am sold a Leap card + 1 day family rambler (no travel credit).

To those in the know (which should include the agents selling the sodding things) this is actually a double mistake as a family rambler only entitles 2 adults to travel and no credit on the card would mean the 3rd adult would have to pay full cash fare (negating the point of using Leap)

So, we (armed with our insufficient card) board the bus. I tell the driver I"m not sure what exactly is on the card but we are 3 adults and 1 child. She tells me "There's NOTHING on the card" and we have to pay full cash fares in coins only for the 3 adults. She even prints off a card status report, looks at it and says "yeah, nothing on that card, it must not have credited yet".

So, I duly insert the coins and get issued full fare cash tickets for the journey. Upon sitting down I scan over the status report she just printed and I see "1 day Family Rambler" listed 2nd from top. I am going to town so we wait until we get to the Terminus and I show her the printout she gave me and asked her what that is.

She confirms it is indeed a valid 1 day family rambler but apparently it's my fault for not explicitly declaring that I wanted to use the rambler, though it was quite obvious I am a first time user of the Leap I would have thought. To be fair, her machine does NOT show her the Rambler ticket is present on the card, you must print off and read the status report apparently.

I decide we'll head up to BAC on O'Connell St. to see what can be done as I feel a little ripped off at this stage. They take several attempts at explanation before the understand the problem, initially suggesting that the Rambler had not been credited to the card at the time it was presented on the bus. When I showed them the status printout, dated 1 minute before the ticket, they conceded and refunded 2 adult fares as they should have been deducted from Leap. Ok, happy enough at this stage as not out of pocket, just time, but we're on holiday so no big deal.

So, now I get too clever (having gone online to see what the actual story is with all these tickets) and think well, I feel the agent messed up selling us a Rambler in the first place as 2 adults and 1 child return is not even the €14.40 a rambler costs, so I say to myself "I'll keep that Rambler for our next visit and put cash credit on the card and at the same time buy a child's Leap and put €5 on that and we can travel home on them". So we board the bus home at 7.30pm and present the card to the validator this time and the friggin Rambler is taken automatically (apparently if I had boarded after 8pm and done this it would have done the exact opposite and deducted from travel credit).

So, I learned a valuable few lessons:
-Find out EXACTLY how tickets work in Dublin in future as the knowledge on the ground seems lacking
-Never trust a sales agent as they do not appear to know what they are selling
-Understand that placing the Leap card on the driver's ticket machine does not have the same effect as placing it up against the validator when a Rambler ticket is loaded depending on time of day (this is just odd to me as a visitor)

Just to compare with my current hometown of Berlin..

Get on bus, pay fare (notes accepted, change given, but I understand certain elements in Irish society make that part difficult), get issued with 3 adult singles and 1 child single as the driver would know that a simple return journey would never make it worthwhile buying a day pass (but she can issue a day pass if it would make more sense). Shove tickets in wallet and hold for inspection if required later.

In short, we have a long way to go to make ticketing as integrated and easy as in other countries. I wasn't even using multiple operators (my Berlin single ticket above would entitle me to change modes between bus, tram, underground, commuter and regional rail and indeed ferry any number of times in a 2hr10min window which should allow any journey right across the city to be completed with ease) and it fell down badly in my eyes. I'm not even a total idiot when it comes to PT, always preferring it when we visit a city and almost always having no trouble negotiating it whatsoever. In fact I can't remember the last time something like the above happened to me and I speak the local language here!

It's needlessly complicated. Also funny to see "stages" still being shown on the Leap fares page but good luck finding them on a map of the route you want to take (zonal fare system?)

Ok, now you can all feel free to tell me how stupid I am and how simple it all is really...:D

eurasian

To me the biggest problem with the leap card is that you still have to "validate" top ups made online by going to the station/validatiton point.
It makes the whole online topping up pontless to me.

XPS_Zero

The lack of knowledge on the ground is awful, and the lack of planning as well.

Until very recently, when they were introduced the Leap Visitor card (allowing you unlimited Dublin travel all services - 24 hours for €10, 3 days for €19.99 [best option] or €40 for a week) was only available at the airport.

• Not available at the ports
• Not available at the Tourist Offices in the City Centre
• Not available at either of the two main intercity stations one of which technically provides international rail services with frequent day trips from Belfast this exact ticket would be suited for.

When I was seriously ill, waiting for months before I got my application for disability accepted and got a free travel card, I had to quit work and the serious amount of transport I had to do on an income slashed by 2/3 meant I had to save some money. WHen you're on social welfare and your smaller income compared to your previous wage is annihilated by the basics of bills, rent and loan repayments now taking up a much much bigger % of your money, then you have to add script charges and medical fees (for some services not provided by the public system) you are forced to learn to be clever with getting a lot out of small amount of money. I figured out that the visitor cards 3 day option would save me a fortune as the daily LEAP cap is €10 for all services (and between pharmacies, clinics, hospital appointments etc I'd use all three modes of transport), so I'd often spend close to €40 a week. I decided to get the leap visitor 3 day option and cluster all my appointments for each week within the 72 hour period.


The card originally only had the 72 hour €19.99 option on it. Once I discovered (by accident, the function was enabled a few weeks before it was marketed) in my local shop that the other two time periods were on the menu now, I decided they might work for me as well, or at least the 24 hour one would, better than a normal LEAP cap, because the normal leap card all services cap for a day is €10, the 24 hour visitor leap is €10 too...but the leap visitor one is time based whereas the standard leap is calendar based. In other words if I put the 10er on the standard leap card today 28th April, it will stop applying the cap at 00:00 tonight no matter when I tag first during the day. But if I load the 24 hour option onto a leap visitor card and tag it at say 16:00 on the 28th April, it will be valid until 16:00 on the 29th April. For weeks where I had more limited appointments I thus saved a 10er pushing appointments to within the same 24 hour period. That was four GMS scripts, 1/3 the cost of a monthly drug not on GMS etc



Two incidents happened (painfully mild compared to the abuse I'd get from CIE staff having an FT card later, ironically).

• One time a Dublin Bus inspector checked my card and declared that since I'm not a tourist I should not have one of these cards. I specifically checked this out beforehand and was told (and shown) that the LUAS inspectors guide didn't specify a tourist had to hold it just that it was tagged on. They also told me they decided that the only people who would get economic value out of it would be visitors for the most part so there wasn't any need to place restrictions on it that would be a pain in the arse to enforce anyway. It took a long time to convince them it was perfectly valid. I had to point out the other two options on the card are identical in every way to the all services LEAP caps anyway
• I went to the Spar closest to Connoly station one time I asked for the 24 hour option to be loaded onto the card. She didn't appear to know how to use the machine to do anything other than a normal leap card as she'd never seen a visitor card before (ok they're new but shouldn't you be trained on the new cards?). I talked her through the menu on how to load it. She got to the option menu for the three possible loading's "oh...I don't think...were not allowed do that, that's not allowed", "of course it's allowed it's part of the cards set up it's on the menu, push the 24 hour option it will print out a receipt for you with a bar code to scan", "oh no I don't think you're allowed do this- ". She seemed to think I was somehow scamming the card. But what she said next made even less sense: "-i think the other shop on the next street does that".....er...what? So it's bad and you're not meant to / allowed do it...but the other shop will do it? WHAT?

I've also noticed there are no visitor cards in the vending machines at the bus stops at Dublin Airport when they are the most ideal ticket for a tourist to need, if they can be sold inside the terminal why not outside in the damn vending machines?


The problem we have making our ticketing system integrated is the 3 companies constantly bickering about wanting their own set ups, protecting their own "brands" etc and instead of the govt coming along and saying "right, you're all state owned, were the govt, were in charge not you, STFU and do exactly as you're told or you're fired", they indulge them in case their union throws their toys out of the pram.

XPS_Zero

eurasian wrote: »

To me the biggest problem with the leap card is that you still have to "validate" top ups made online by going to the station/validation point.
It makes the whole online topping up pontless to me.

Agreed. I had a huge row over that on the Luas one time. I had to run fast somewhere didn't have time to stop at a shop to top up and hadn't got any of my bank cards with me, so I topped up online knowing my numbers off heart. I didn't think it would take 3 days because, as you say, that defeats the ENTIRE PURPOSE of topping up online, you could go to a shop within 3 days why bother?

I got to the Luas stop and tried to "collect" my top up and tag on. No dice. PURCHASE NEEDED
ERRRR
PURCHASE NEEDED
ERRRRR
PURCHASE NEEDED
ERRR
PURCHASE NEEDED

The next most frustrating words after "INSUFFICIENT FUNDS", especially when you've just made a purchase. This was Dundrum station. A tram arrived I let it go. Back to the machine to try tag another 40 times. Nothing. People at the stop must have saw this college student (equipped with my UCD sports bag, flying the flag for the college by looking like a mental case attacking a smart card reader) tagging fruitlessly smacking the side of the machine in frustration and mumbling and thought I was off my head on something, as all college students are all the time of course, or so the tabloids tell me when not telling me about 16 year olds having coke fueled, gel bracelet assisted orgies on their junior cert night....but I digress

Another tram pulled in, as they do in Dundrum, the one that stops and then reverses back the CC way. I decided, frustrated, "f--k this, I paid for a ticket, and they won't let me use the service, I'm getting on this tram". I got on, then decided no murphys law, I've paid and made no attempt to avoid the fare...so I'm definitely getting caught and fined if I stay on this tram, got off, back to the machine to keep trying. The tram was leaving in 3minutes I decided I'd run down the clock and decide what to do then, give it more trys use up the 3 minutes. Inspectors saw me getting off the tram and thought I was already on the tram coming from CC. Didn't believe me, fined me

I appealed they tried the 3 day gambit if you don't pay were taking you to court, I said ok my blunder I wasn't aware of that stupid condition, but I'm not paying the fine, theres no intent to commit a crime (and recklessness doesn't apply), and without either of those, there is no crime in law, take me to court. I wasn't bluffing I was so annoyed over the whole thing. They eventually dropped it once they realized, I think, that I actually was crazy enough to go and chance it, and after I asked them to check the cameras. If I went to court, I said, I'd be easily able to produce three things:

Video footage of me trying to tag on (ie pay) dozens of times
Video footage showing I didn't get off that other tram from an existing journey
An email showing me buying a top up mere minutes before the station so no intent to commit fare evasion is present

and I'd get to point out that even though you could argue I should have paid attention to the stupid 3 day rule, I didn't undertake a journey without paying a fare...so there is no damn case. I never used online top up again after that.

murphaph

Oh I also learned that I can use an adult leap e-purse to pay for companions on DB (but not other modes) BUT I cannot pay a child fare in this manner with an adult Leap card, even though it"s just a sum of cash credit on the e-purse. I'd love to know the exact reason I can't pay for a child fare with funds from the e-purse on my adult Leap card.

XPS_Zero

murphaph wrote: »

Oh I also learned that I can use an adult leap e-purse to pay for companions on DB (but not other modes) BUT I cannot pay a child fare in this manner with an adult Leap card, even though it"s just a sum of cash credit on the e-purse. I'd love to know the exact reason I can't pay for a child fare with funds from the e-purse on my adult Leap card.

I often wondered how that would work.

I had a guy who was quite desperate one time, at the bus stop, thought he was one of these fakers who pretend they need cash for the bus or train you give it to them and then they go on to the next person and ask the same thing. But he was preppy and clean cut which made me doubt, I got onto the bus with him he pleaded with the driver that he was stranded and had no way of getting home. I slapped my LEAP card onto the reader and asked him to take his fare off me.

I wondered how that would work if you were close to your cap or already passed it? would they still do it?

Tickityboo

murphaph wrote: »

Oh I also learned that I can use an adult leap e-purse to pay for companions on DB (but not other modes) BUT I cannot pay a child fare in this manner with an adult Leap card, even though it"s just a sum of cash credit on the e-purse. I'd love to know the exact reason I can't pay for a child fare with funds from the e-purse on my adult Leap card.

You can pay for a child with an adult leap card!!
The driver just has to press the child button on the ticket machine when the leap card is placed on it.
This will bring up the child fare options on the machine.

jahalpin

eurasian wrote: »

To me the biggest problem with the leap card is that you still have to "validate" top ups made online by going to the station/validatiton point.
It makes the whole online topping up pontless to me.

If you have an Android phone you can load top-ups to your card using the Leap Card app and NFC (this doesn't work on iPhones as Apple have locked the NFC chip so it only works for Apple Pay)

jahalpin

A little bit of research online before travelling would have been a good idea as the Leap Card website explains all the different options available and how to buy these (when I travel I would normally look these kinds of things up before I get there or while waiting in the airport on the way there)

It's not really fair to expect someone in a local newsagents to know all the options available on all products that their terminal sells as they would be hundreds of products available on the terminal

Cookie_Monster

jahalpin wrote: »

It's not really fair to expect someone in a local newsagents to know all the options available on all products that their terminal sells as they would be hundreds of products available on the terminal

of course it is. If you a providing a good or service you should know the ins and outs of it. CIE / NTA should be providing training to any outlet that provides Leap, and should be mystery shopping them as well.

markpb

XPS_Zero wrote:

I wondered how that would work if you were close to your cap or already passed it? would they still do it?

Companion ticket fares aren't counted towards the cap.

murphaph

Tickityboo wrote: »

You can pay for a child with an adult leap card!!
The driver just has to press the child button on the ticket machine when the leap card is placed on it.
This will bring up the child fare options on the machine.

Oh. Then the Leap T&Cs are clear as mud.

"(a) "Adult Leap Card" means those Leap Cards that can be used by a person of any age. Student and Child Tickets cannot be used on this card. Certain adult Tickets such as monthly and annual Taxsaver Tickets cannot be used on this card and must be used on a Personalised Leap Card. It is to be noted that Adult Leap Cards are subject to full adult fares irrespective of the age of the customer using the Leap Card. "

https://www.leapcard.ie/en/(X(1)S(sbxmikvcmyqg0opgwhimp0jf))/pagesetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=CG%2FCj953WkPB%2B7fwjkLFshsyP7wecX6fiV0VBn3Q632F20yhboVXGTVmv%2B2bImvcFvyDWv8wk%2Bd4E5kAGPCvjpJvBUgOhvVEg%2FB6ZgVyLiI6nLqx13jMpsQIKgDUASmGM793kdSI9FJOtf2oYKBBrP3uRbgVAG0ZGo31awr2Vmg%3D

murphaph

jahalpin wrote: »

A little bit of research online before travelling would have been a good idea as the Leap Card website explains all the different options available and how to buy these (when I travel I would normally look these kinds of things up before I get there or while waiting in the airport on the way there)

It's not really fair to expect someone in a local newsagents to know all the options available on all products that their terminal sells as they would be hundreds of products available on the terminal

To be fair a group or family day ticket would not be an obscure or exotic product in any public transport system I'm aware of. If they aren't sure (they were asked specifically) then they should consult a reliable source.

markpb

murphaph wrote:

"(a) "Adult Leap Card" means those Leap Cards that can be used by a person of any age. Student and Child Tickets cannot be used on this card.

I be wrong but I think that means you cannot but a child ticket and load it into the card. Funds on the wallet can be used to pay for a child fare though.

murphaph

markpb wrote: »

I be wrong but I think that means you cannot but a child ticket and load it into the card. Funds on the wallet can be used to pay for a child fare though.

Yeah I accept that it actually works for the wallet as Tickityboo says it works in practice. I was more focused on the last line of the quoted T&C...

"It is to be noted that Adult Leap Cards are subject to full adult fares irrespective of the age of the customer using the Leap Card"

It's at best exceptionally misleading as it seems it does not apply in practice to the e-purse/travel credit aspect to the card.

beauf

Definitely the worse part is the lack of online integration for the buses. Its just a major flaw in the system.

They should put an ATM system in place instead of using shops. Shops are useless if the system isn't all connected. Bank ATMs are everywhere.

Pelvis

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

of course it is. If you a providing a good or service you should know the ins and outs of it. CIE / NTA should be providing training to any outlet that provides Leap, and should be mystery shopping them as well.

If you work in a newsagent you could be selling thousands of different products, if you expect the guy working part time earning minimum wage behind the counter to know the ins and outs of every transport ticket they sell then logically the same should apply to every toilet roll, tube of toothpaste and chocolate bar they sell. It's just not going to happen, there's an expectancy that the people purchasing the product know what they want.

If I'm on holiday and have my family with me, I'm sure as **** not rockin' up to a newsagents to buy a travel pass without knowing exactly what I'm asking for in advance.

markpb

beauf wrote:

They should put an ATM system in place instead of using shops. Shops are useless if the system isn't all connected. Bank ATMs are everywhere.

The shops are connected/online but it's irrelevant because the hardware in the shops write directly to the Leap card when the ticket is bought. The comments made by DB staff in the OP about the ticket not being applied immediately are total gibberish.

Besides which, bank ATMs don't have contactless hardware. The cost of it to the ATMs, updating the software and paying the banks for the transaction would prohibitive. And even then, you'd still need the network of shops to support people who want to pay by cash and for people who want to buy the physical card.

murphaph

Pelvis wrote: »

If you work in a newsagent you could be selling thousands of different products, if you expect the guy working part time earning minimum wage behind the counter to know the ins and outs of every transport ticket they sell then logically the same should apply to every toilet roll, tube of toothpaste and chocolate bar they sell. It's just not going to happen, there's an expectancy that the people purchasing the product know what they want.

If I'm on holiday and have my family with me, I'm sure as **** not rockin' up to a newsagents to buy a travel pass without knowing exactly what I'm asking for in advance.

To be honest even the lady in DB had to check how many adults can travel on a family rambler ticket. She pulled out a booklet. She should have known but the booklets exist and the ticket agent should have been able to consult the same booklet rather than selling the wrong ticket. I at no point asked for a rambler ticket. I told them how many adults and children would be traveling and was mis-sold a ticket. If you don't know, then say so.

beauf

markpb wrote: »

The shops are connected/online but it's irrelevant because the hardware in the shops write directly to the Leap card when the ticket is bought. The comments made by DB staff in the OP about the ticket not being applied immediately are total gibberish.

Besides which, bank ATMs don't have contactless hardware. The cost of it to the ATMs, updating the software and paying the banks for the transaction would prohibitive. And even then, you'd still need the network of shops to support people who want to pay by cash.

Let me correct what I meant. Its useless buying it in a shop, if its not connected to the bus that you walk out of the shop and get on to.

So they need fix the bus system. Not just that it gets the money from the shops, but that you tag on and off, same as the trains.

The leap card works well using Luas and trains.

Cookie_Monster

Pelvis wrote: »

If you work in a newsagent you could be selling thousands of different products, if you expect the guy working part time earning minimum wage behind the counter to know the ins and outs of every transport ticket they sell then logically the same should apply to every toilet roll, tube of toothpaste and chocolate bar they sell. It's just not going to happen, there's an expectancy that the people purchasing the product know what they want.

stop being ridiculous; toilet paper is toilet paper. Leap ticketing is a complex service provided (like Lotto say) and should be fully understood by any staff member.

beauf

It seems to very common to get very poor information from staff or shops about the tickets. Therefore it makes sense to move it all to ATMs like the Luas terminals and trains stations. Do it all there.

Pelvis

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

stop being ridiculous; toilet paper is toilet paper. Leap ticketing is a complex service provided (like Lotto say) and should be fully understood by any staff member.

Hardly ridiculous, that checkout girl in Tesco should know the difference between Kittensoft and Andrex toilet roll, and why a 9 pack of one costs 10 cent more than the 9 pack of the other. At least very least, shouldn't they be able to tell me, if I were to ask, which performs better out of Domestos bleach and Tesco own brand bleach? Surely they know about their own products at least?

They are selling the product, they should know the ins and outs of it, according to you.

devnull

Pelvis wrote: »

Hardly ridiculous, that checkout girl in Tesco should know the difference between Kittensoft and Andrex toilet roll, and why a 9 pack of one costs 10 cent more than the 9 pack of the other.

At least very least, shouldn't they be able to tell me, if I were to ask, which performs better out of Domestos bleach and Tesco own brand bleach? Surely they know about their own products at least?

A shop like a Supermarket may sell getting on for 10,000 products, are they supposed to know every one of them inside out?

Will you be happy to pay the extra cost of taking extra staff on to take staff off the floor to train them when new products come in?

Your theory is great, but in practice it's not very workable.

Pelvis

devnull wrote: »

A shop like a Supermarket may sell getting on for 10,000 products, are they supposed to know every one of them inside out?

Will you be happy to pay the extra cost of taking extra staff on to take staff off the floor to train them when new products come in?

Your theory is great, but in practice it's not very workable.

That's the point I'm making.

spurious

The automated top-up is the best way to use the Leap. I gave up on the stupid 'online topup and validate' system ages ago.

beauf

If I need a leap for a bus, I go to the local train/luas station, get a card/credit there, the night before I need the bus. I see no reason to go to a shop.

boobycharlton

The Leap app on Android is the easiest way. Can top up whenever you want instantaneously. None of the hassle of collecting the top up like you have to do for online, and no queuing to top up in a shop or at a ticket vending machine in a train station or luas stop.

beauf

True, if your phone supports compatible NFC. I don't think any in our house do.

murphaph

beauf wrote: »

If I need a leap for a bus, I go to the local train/luas station, get a card/credit there, the night before I need the bus. I see no reason to go to a shop.

In my case there's no train station. Only the local shop. This is the case for most of the country.

murphaph

I think we are losing lots of travel data because you do not tag off on the bus. A great benefit of an RFID card like Leap is that we can use the data for demand modelling, but the end destinations of millions of journeys (we are mostly bus reliant in Ireland) are not known as you do not tag off alighting the bus.

XPS_Zero

jahalpin wrote: »

A little bit of research online before travelling would have been a good idea as the Leap Card website explains all the different options available and how to buy these (when I travel I would normally look these kinds of things up before I get there or while waiting in the airport on the way there)

It's not really fair to expect someone in a local newsagents to know all the options available on all products that their terminal sells as they would be hundreds of products available on the terminal

There would not be 100s of products. There might be a dozen. Top ups for phones, gift cards, transport tickets and bill pay...that's about it.
Leap card being the most frequently requested after a phone top up, so it is perfectly reasonable to expect someone to understand it.
I the example above I concede it was new that's why I walked her through how to do it, and she still refused.

devnull wrote: »

A shop like a Supermarket may sell getting on for 10,000 products, are they supposed to know every one of them inside out?

Will you be happy to pay the extra cost of taking extra staff on to take staff off the floor to train them when new products come in?

Your theory is great, but in practice it's not very workable.

You are comparing apples and oranges now.

Products in a supermarket have detailed descriptions, labels, ingredients on them so staff are not required to know the ins and outs of everything. Nor is it reasonable to compare knowing the micro-detail of thousands of products to knowing a few basic functions of a bloody transport ticket and how to load it. Most 10 year olds can use an iphone or tablet without any difficulty including doing more complex stuff like changing the settings, if a 10 year old can handle that, a 19 year old or 30 year old in a news agent should be able to handle a smart card with very limited set of functions.

There are examples, if you wanna go down ^ that road, where staff are required to have very detailed knowledge of many different products and you know what? THEY DO. Much more detail than any smartcard for public transport. When I was working in a pharmacy (not as a pharmacist or tech, but OTC) I had to know about 100s of products and how they interacted with various health conditions (just over the counter ones not prescription items) and that's before getting into learning about the pseudo-scientific woo like homeopathy so I could talk people out of wasting their money on something with no active ingredients no better than a placebo. I coped.

boobycharlton wrote: »

The Leap app on Android is the easiest way. Can top up whenever you want instantaneously. None of the hassle of collecting the top up like you have to do for online, and no queuing to top up in a shop or at a ticket vending machine in a train station or luas stop.

This, not online top up, is the future that will end the hassle of all this.

eurasian

jahalpin wrote: »

If you have an Android phone you can load top-ups to your card using the Leap Card app and NFC (this doesn't work on iPhones as Apple have locked the NFC chip so it only works for Apple Pay)

It only proves how poor the whole thing is. As a customer I don't want to download a separate program and ensure my phone has NFC, and deal with all this crap.
Online top ups should go straigh into the card.

At least they should have automatised collecting top-ups during boarding by simply touching the reader on the bus.
If the reader can show the balance on the card, then it should have had ability to "collect" top ups.

Poor programming and management.

Cookie_Monster

Pelvis wrote: »

Hardly ridiculous, that checkout girl in Tesco should know the difference between Kittensoft and Andrex toilet roll, and why a 9 pack of one costs 10 cent more than the 9 pack of the other. At least very least, shouldn't they be able to tell me, if I were to ask, which performs better out of Domestos bleach and Tesco own brand bleach? Surely they know about their own products at least?

They are selling the product, they should know the ins and outs of it, according to you.

you're continuing to be obtuse. To use the toilet roll analogy, the customer picks the one the want off the shelf and can consider all the differences before buying. The Leap is a service that the staff must use to generate what the customer wants. Even if the customer knows what they want (as in the OP) staff still have to do it.

Banjoxed

sugarman wrote: »

Spot on, I don't understand how every dublinbus is now equipped with WiFi and yet they couldn't integrate it with a tag on/tag off system with the validator. It'd be dead easy to work live GPS coordinates with zones.

Same with the Luas, validator should on the freaking thing. While it's not the worst, it can be a right pain into the arse when theres a que with the Luas about to leave... Or again, off when trying to make a connection!

Absoutely no thought has gone into, another half arsed Irish effort.

A big part of the problem is the retention of the fare stage system and the seeming discouragement/disincentive to use Leap by having to queue and validate. Edinburgh and London have solved the problem by using flat fares but change seems on a scale from difficult to impossible in Dublin. Lothian Buses solved the problem with Edinburgh's legacy medium distance routes by hiving them off into a 'Lothian Country' section. The same needs to be done with the straggling Dublin routes like the 65 that goes deep into rural Wicklow.

But, as many of us who have observed the changes in Dublin over the last forty years have seen, the 'dreary steeples' of intransigent Trade Unionism and ineffective management mean that otherwise sensible changes take years and come about in a half-arsed way.

bk

It is very simple, when you top-up online, the top-up should be available to load on all buses and all Luas and Irish rail validators.

It really isn't rocket science. The above is exactly how it has worked on buses in Atlanta since they launched their smart card back in 2006! That is 11 years ago!

We are so far behind these sort of things it isn't even funny.

boobycharlton

eurasian wrote: »

It only proves how poor the whole thing is. As a customer I don't want to download a separate program and ensure my phone has NFC, and deal with all this crap.
Online top ups should go straigh into the card.

At least they should have automatised collecting top-ups during boarding by simply touching the reader on the bus.
If the reader can show the balance on the card, then it should have had ability to "collect" top ups.

Poor programming and management.

All that crap? My cheapo 100 quid phone has NFC, the Leap app takes a few seconds to download and about a minute to top up your card through it. Less if you let the app save your credit card details (I don't.)

This is one of the very few areas that the NTA have done something right with Leap.

XPS_Zero

The excuse I keep hearing for why we don't switch to an all services zonal fare system is "sure that means if you go from the edge of zone A to the edge of zone B, you're paying more for not traveling very far.

The same is true of that with the stage system, with means tests (one of the reasons I hate them), with the drink driving limit...the line has to be drawn somewhere the question is is the fare zones a better set up, looking at Luas, Bus Eireann, London TFL it's way better.

Dravokivich

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

of course it is. If you a providing a good or service you should know the ins and outs of it. CIE / NTA should be providing training to any outlet that provides Leap, and should be mystery shopping them as well.

When I worked in a news agents all I needed to know was how to use the till and how to count. You're a bit mad thinking they are a Service provider.

Carawaystick

I think the most pertinant point about leapcard information is that a private interested person, our very own lxflyer, has produced the most complete and up-to-date guide to leapcard use and functionality

bk

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The excuse I keep hearing for why we don't switch to an all services zonal fare system is "sure that means if you go from the edge of zone A to the edge of zone B, you're paying more for not traveling very far.

Easily solved with the system they have in Amsterdam.

You pay 80c on the first bus/tram/metro you board and then you pay 14c per km *. You can switch transport modes within 60 minutes and you continue to pay the per k charge (but not the initial charge).

In other words you just pay for the distance you travel.

No need for zones. Zones is an old fashioned idea that is no longer necessary now that we have smart cards and GPS.

* The per km charge differs slightly by a cent or two, depending on mode of transport and time of day. For instance there is a lower off peak charge to encourage off peak travel.

Be well and win

A couple of key points here

Firstly, the OP spoke about using cash on buses in the UK, including notes. More and more UK bus companies are doing away with cash and you cannot use cash at all on a London Bus

Secondly, regarding the online top ups. Your Leapcard is like your debit card. It really is just a dumb piece of plastic. When you get paid your wages, the money doesn't magically go to your debit card, instead it goes to your bank account and you have to interact with an ATM or POS device to make a transaction. The transfer of your wages from your company to your bank account might have taken a couple of days

I'm not defending Leapcard here and it could be an awful lot better but in fairness, it works pretty well most of the time.

Ashbx

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

you're continuing to be obtuse. To use the toilet roll analogy, the customer picks the one the want off the shelf and can consider all the differences before buying. The Leap is a service that the staff must use to generate what the customer wants. Even if the customer knows what they want (as in the OP) staff still have to do it.

I worked in a newsagent for 6 years during my school and college days.

We had a deli....we weren't trained in nutrition value or anything about cooking.
We had an ATM machine....we weren't trained in how this works or why sometimes money may not come out, and if that means the customer were still charged.
We sold lotto....we weren't trained in on how the lotto works, or what the price is, or should you get the plus or not. We werent trained on what you should do if you won a significant amount. We were trained how to press buttons on a machine.
We had a post office in the shop.....we weren't trained in anything to do with the Irish postal system or any services that come with the post office.
We sold cigarettes....when's someones brand wasn't in stock, we weren't trained on how to advise what cigs would be similar to their own brand. Or same goes for ANY product we sold in that store.
We sold wine.....we weren't trained on what wine goes with what food or whether you should advise white or red.
We had payzone....we weren't trained on how bills are paid through payzone, how the credit works on phones or how you can pay for parking.

Finally: we sold bus and luas tickets....and we were NOT trained in in any of this either.

To expect some 16 year old working a part time job to be able to explain all of the above is laughable!

Next time do your research and ask the person exactly what you are looking for. Alternatively, ring Luas or go onto their website and find out what you are looking for because the average joe in the shop is not going to be able to tell you.

Banjoxed

Ashbx wrote: »

I worked in a newsagent for 6 years during my school and college days.

We had a deli....we weren't trained in nutrition value or anything about cooking.
We had an ATM machine....we weren't trained in how this works or why sometimes money may not come out, and if that means the customer were still charged.
We sold lotto....we weren't trained in on how the lotto works, or what the price is, or should you get the plus or not. We werent trained on what you should do if you won a significant amount. We were trained how to press buttons on a machine.
We had a post office in the shop.....we weren't trained in anything to do with the Irish postal system or any services that come with the post office.
We sold cigarettes....when's someones brand wasn't in stock, we weren't trained on how to advise what cigs would be similar to their own brand. Or same goes for ANY product we sold in that store.
We sold wine.....we weren't trained on what wine goes with what food or whether you should advise white or red.
We had payzone....we weren't trained on how bills are paid through payzone, how the credit works on phones or how you can pay for parking.

Finally: we sold bus and luas tickets....and we were NOT trained in in any of this either.

To expect some 16 year old working a part time job to be able to explain all of the above is laughable!

Next time do your research and ask the person exactly what you are looking for. Alternatively, ring Luas or go onto their website and find out what you are looking for because the average joe in the shop is not going to be able to tell you.

So the moral of the story is, don't expect a till jockey to know anything about the PT product you may wish to buy. This side of ticketing should be scrapped altogther until shops are willing or able to implement minimum standards.

Dravokivich

Banjoxed wrote: »

So the moral of the story is, don't expect a till jockey to know anything about the PT product you may wish to buy. This side of ticketing should be scrapped altogther until shops are willing or able to implement minimum standards.

There should be clear information for a consumer to be confident in the product they are purchasing. The lack of it has been somewhat bewildering. That's not the shops fault. Nor the fault of the "Till Jockey." Some people's expectations are a bit far fetched.

XPS_Zero

Ashbx wrote: »

I worked in a newsagent for 6 years during my school and college days.

We had a deli....we weren't trained in nutrition value or anything about cooking.
We had an ATM machine....we weren't trained in how this works or why sometimes money may not come out, and if that means the customer were still charged.
We sold lotto....we weren't trained in on how the lotto works, or what the price is, or should you get the plus or not. We werent trained on what you should do if you won a significant amount. We were trained how to press buttons on a machine.
We had a post office in the shop.....we weren't trained in anything to do with the Irish postal system or any services that come with the post office.
We sold cigarettes....when's someones brand wasn't in stock, we weren't trained on how to advise what cigs would be similar to their own brand. Or same goes for ANY product we sold in that store.
We sold wine.....we weren't trained on what wine goes with what food or whether you should advise white or red.
We had payzone....we weren't trained on how bills are paid through payzone, how the credit works on phones or how you can pay for parking.

Finally: we sold bus and luas tickets....and we were NOT trained in in any of this either.

To expect some 16 year old working a part time job to be able to explain all of the above is laughable!

Next time do your research and ask the person exactly what you are looking for. Alternatively, ring Luas or go onto their website and find out what you are looking for because the average joe in the shop is not going to be able to tell you.

erm....are you f---king kidding? seriously?
That was an incredibly snotty and disingenuous answer and you know it.

DELI: Nobody expects you to be able to advise on nutrition because advising on nutrition is not an advertised service of your shop. All you need to know how to do is make sandwitches and cut ham and corned beef, and I bet you WERE trained on that.

ATM: Once again...NOT a service provided by your shop, just a service provided IN your shop another service provider is responsible for and the customer knows how to use all by themselves

LOTTO: Once AGAIN...advising on what numbers to get NOT a service provided by your shop. But you see how you admit you WERE advised on how to use the machine?? So if you are trained to use one machine why is it so unreasonable to be trained to use another much similer machine a few inches away?

CIGS: Once again..NOT something you are expected to provide as a service.

POST: Once again..like the ATM...a separate service with separate staff NOT a service provided by your shop

WINE: Being a wine connoisseur...NOT an advertised service of your shop.

Now we get to the last one.

We had payzone....we weren't trained on how bills are paid through payzone.....

You f---g should have been!! That's part of your god damn job!

how the credit works on phones or how you can pay for parking.

Can you guess what I'm going to say....NOT a service advertised by your shop.

So instead of disingeniously naming services everyone and their grandmother knows is not provided by your store, lets compare oranges and oranges instead of oranges and apples.


You're trained to use the lotto machine...you should be trained to use the LEAP machine
You're trained to use the till...you should be trained to use the LEAP machine
You're trained to use the machines on the Deli...you should be trained to use the LEAP machine
You're trained to use the PAYZONE machine...you should be trained to use the LEAP machine

What do those four things have in common that the post office and parking services and nutritional advice and the ATM do not? They are all advertised services of your shop, that you are saying you provide, that are behind the counter and the customer cannot self-service with.

Of course the person should research online more first. But comparing knowing the basic and easily understandable way a LEAP card works with providing nutritional advice is absolutely absurd.
Being qualified to provide nutritional advice would take a few years and formal qualifications, understanding how the various transport cards work would take an hour reading through a booklet.

If you sell a product you should understand the basic way it works, you don't need to be able to explain what bus routes are available etc but you should be able to explain the basic mechanism by which the product you are selling works. If I work in a chemist and I sell painkillers, I ought to have enough basic knowledge to understand if the persons pain is more appropriately delt with by say paracetamol on it's own or something stronger...I don't need to be a pharmacist to understand the very basics of the products I sell.

Ashbx

XPS_Zero wrote: »

erm....are you f---king kidding? seriously?
That was an incredibly snotty and disingenuous answer and you know it.

DELI: Nobody expects you to be able to advise on nutrition because advising on nutrition is not an advertised service of your shop. All you need to know how to do is make sandwitches and cut ham and corned beef, and I bet you WERE trained on that.

ATM: Once again...NOT a service provided by your shop, just a service provided IN your shop another service provider is responsible for and the customer knows how to use all by themselves

LOTTO: Once AGAIN...advising on what numbers to get NOT a service provided by your shop. But you see how you admit you WERE advised on how to use the machine?? So if you are trained to use one machine why is it so unreasonable to be trained to use another much similer machine a few inches away?

CIGS: Once again..NOT something you are expected to provide as a service.

POST: Once again..like the ATM...a separate service with separate staff NOT a service provided by your shop

WINE: Being a wine connoisseur...NOT an advertised service of your shop.

Now we get to the last one.



You f---g should have been!! That's part of your god damn job!



Can you guess what I'm going to say....NOT a service advertised by your shop.

So instead of disingeniously naming services everyone and their grandmother knows is not provided by your store, lets compare oranges and oranges instead of oranges and apples.


You're trained to use the lotto machine...you should be trained to use the LEAP machine
You're trained to use the till...you should be trained to use the LEAP machine
You're trained to use the machines on the Deli...you should be trained to use the LEAP machine
You're trained to use the PAYZONE machine...you should be trained to use the LEAP machine

What do those four things have in common that the post office and parking services and nutritional advice and the ATM do not? They are all advertised services of your shop, that you are saying you provide, that are behind the counter and the customer cannot self-service with.

Of course the person should research online more first. But comparing knowing the basic and easily understandable way a LEAP card works with providing nutritional advice is absolutely absurd.
Being qualified to provide nutritional advice would take a few years and formal qualifications, understanding how the various transport cards work would take an hour reading through a booklet.

If you sell a product you should understand the basic way it works, you don't need to be able to explain what bus routes are available etc but you should be able to explain the basic mechanism by which the product you are selling works. If I work in a chemist and I sell painkillers, I ought to have enough basic knowledge to understand if the persons pain is more appropriately delt with by say paracetamol on it's own or something stronger...I don't need to be a pharmacist to understand the very basics of the products I sell.

Selling luas or bus tickets is considered a product of the shop...but knowledge on public transport is not a service of the shop either!!

So customers are to come in and say "I want a one day rambler ticket".....not I want a ticket for 10 people and expect the staff member to know what ticket would be suitable. That is the point I am trying to make.

To use an example, the lotto. Yes I was trained how to press buttons on this machine. But if someone came into me and said I have €10 I want to spend on the lotto....as a then 16 year old who had NEVER done the lotto before.....I didn't know how it worked. I just knew that 3 lines with the plus cost x amount.

So yes, I was trained to use the machine but again I was not trained to ADVISE on it. Much like luas and bus....I can sell you tickets yes but I cant ADVISE on them!

I am just speaking about my own experience being on the other side of the OP so you can get angry all you like but I assume most shops would be in the same position as I was in. It should be up to Dublin Bus or Luas to make these clear to customers....not people in the local spar doing a part time job while they are still in school!!

blanch152

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

of course it is. If you a providing a good or service you should know the ins and outs of it. CIE / NTA should be providing training to any outlet that provides Leap, and should be mystery shopping them as well.

Doesn't happen elsewhere. I have had problems in both London and Paris when dealing with someone other than the main train stations.

blanch152

murphaph wrote: »

I think we are losing lots of travel data because you do not tag off on the bus. A great benefit of an RFID card like Leap is that we can use the data for demand modelling, but the end destinations of millions of journeys (we are mostly bus reliant in Ireland) are not known as you do not tag off alighting the bus.

Agreed, but the machines should be at the bus stop.

Travel times in Dublin are already long enough without having to wait for all those getting off the bus to tag off.

murphaph

Ashbx wrote: »

I worked in a newsagent for 6 years during my school and college days.

We had a deli....we weren't trained in nutrition value or anything about cooking.
We had an ATM machine....we weren't trained in how this works or why sometimes money may not come out, and if that means the customer were still charged.
We sold lotto....we weren't trained in on how the lotto works, or what the price is, or should you get the plus or not. We werent trained on what you should do if you won a significant amount. We were trained how to press buttons on a machine.
We had a post office in the shop.....we weren't trained in anything to do with the Irish postal system or any services that come with the post office.
We sold cigarettes....when's someones brand wasn't in stock, we weren't trained on how to advise what cigs would be similar to their own brand. Or same goes for ANY product we sold in that store.
We sold wine.....we weren't trained on what wine goes with what food or whether you should advise white or red.
We had payzone....we weren't trained on how bills are paid through payzone, how the credit works on phones or how you can pay for parking.

Finally: we sold bus and luas tickets....and we were NOT trained in in any of this either.

To expect some 16 year old working a part time job to be able to explain all of the above is laughable!

Next time do your research and ask the person exactly what you are looking for. Alternatively, ring Luas or go onto their website and find out what you are looking for because the average joe in the shop is not going to be able to tell you.

What did you do when someone asked you something you didn't know?

murphaph

blanch152 wrote: »

Agreed, but the machines should be at the bus stop.

Travel times in Dublin are already long enough without having to wait for all those getting off the bus to tag off.

We'll yeah...the poor layout of buses in Dublin deserves its own thread. Berlin double deckers have 3 sets of doors and 2 stairs, one at the front immediately behind driver and one all the way at the back. You board at the front and head upstairs. When alighting you use the rear stairs and door. It's like a conveyor belt.