My experience of ticketing on Irish PT as a visitor

XPS_Zero

jahalpin wrote: »

A little bit of research online before travelling would have been a good idea as the Leap Card website explains all the different options available and how to buy these (when I travel I would normally look these kinds of things up before I get there or while waiting in the airport on the way there)

It's not really fair to expect someone in a local newsagents to know all the options available on all products that their terminal sells as they would be hundreds of products available on the terminal

There would not be 100s of products. There might be a dozen. Top ups for phones, gift cards, transport tickets and bill pay...that's about it.
Leap card being the most frequently requested after a phone top up, so it is perfectly reasonable to expect someone to understand it.
I the example above I concede it was new that's why I walked her through how to do it, and she still refused.

devnull wrote: »

A shop like a Supermarket may sell getting on for 10,000 products, are they supposed to know every one of them inside out?

Will you be happy to pay the extra cost of taking extra staff on to take staff off the floor to train them when new products come in?

Your theory is great, but in practice it's not very workable.

You are comparing apples and oranges now.

Products in a supermarket have detailed descriptions, labels, ingredients on them so staff are not required to know the ins and outs of everything. Nor is it reasonable to compare knowing the micro-detail of thousands of products to knowing a few basic functions of a bloody transport ticket and how to load it. Most 10 year olds can use an iphone or tablet without any difficulty including doing more complex stuff like changing the settings, if a 10 year old can handle that, a 19 year old or 30 year old in a news agent should be able to handle a smart card with very limited set of functions.

There are examples, if you wanna go down ^ that road, where staff are required to have very detailed knowledge of many different products and you know what? THEY DO. Much more detail than any smartcard for public transport. When I was working in a pharmacy (not as a pharmacist or tech, but OTC) I had to know about 100s of products and how they interacted with various health conditions (just over the counter ones not prescription items) and that's before getting into learning about the pseudo-scientific woo like homeopathy so I could talk people out of wasting their money on something with no active ingredients no better than a placebo. I coped.

boobycharlton wrote: »

The Leap app on Android is the easiest way. Can top up whenever you want instantaneously. None of the hassle of collecting the top up like you have to do for online, and no queuing to top up in a shop or at a ticket vending machine in a train station or luas stop.

This, not online top up, is the future that will end the hassle of all this.

eurasian

jahalpin wrote: »

If you have an Android phone you can load top-ups to your card using the Leap Card app and NFC (this doesn't work on iPhones as Apple have locked the NFC chip so it only works for Apple Pay)

It only proves how poor the whole thing is. As a customer I don't want to download a separate program and ensure my phone has NFC, and deal with all this crap.
Online top ups should go straigh into the card.

At least they should have automatised collecting top-ups during boarding by simply touching the reader on the bus.
If the reader can show the balance on the card, then it should have had ability to "collect" top ups.

Poor programming and management.

Cookie_Monster

Pelvis wrote: »

Hardly ridiculous, that checkout girl in Tesco should know the difference between Kittensoft and Andrex toilet roll, and why a 9 pack of one costs 10 cent more than the 9 pack of the other. At least very least, shouldn't they be able to tell me, if I were to ask, which performs better out of Domestos bleach and Tesco own brand bleach? Surely they know about their own products at least?

They are selling the product, they should know the ins and outs of it, according to you.

you're continuing to be obtuse. To use the toilet roll analogy, the customer picks the one the want off the shelf and can consider all the differences before buying. The Leap is a service that the staff must use to generate what the customer wants. Even if the customer knows what they want (as in the OP) staff still have to do it.

Banjoxed

sugarman wrote: »

Spot on, I don't understand how every dublinbus is now equipped with WiFi and yet they couldn't integrate it with a tag on/tag off system with the validator. It'd be dead easy to work live GPS coordinates with zones.

Same with the Luas, validator should on the freaking thing. While it's not the worst, it can be a right pain into the arse when theres a que with the Luas about to leave... Or again, off when trying to make a connection!

Absoutely no thought has gone into, another half arsed Irish effort.

A big part of the problem is the retention of the fare stage system and the seeming discouragement/disincentive to use Leap by having to queue and validate. Edinburgh and London have solved the problem by using flat fares but change seems on a scale from difficult to impossible in Dublin. Lothian Buses solved the problem with Edinburgh's legacy medium distance routes by hiving them off into a 'Lothian Country' section. The same needs to be done with the straggling Dublin routes like the 65 that goes deep into rural Wicklow.

But, as many of us who have observed the changes in Dublin over the last forty years have seen, the 'dreary steeples' of intransigent Trade Unionism and ineffective management mean that otherwise sensible changes take years and come about in a half-arsed way.

bk

It is very simple, when you top-up online, the top-up should be available to load on all buses and all Luas and Irish rail validators.

It really isn't rocket science. The above is exactly how it has worked on buses in Atlanta since they launched their smart card back in 2006! That is 11 years ago!

We are so far behind these sort of things it isn't even funny.

boobycharlton

eurasian wrote: »

It only proves how poor the whole thing is. As a customer I don't want to download a separate program and ensure my phone has NFC, and deal with all this crap.
Online top ups should go straigh into the card.

At least they should have automatised collecting top-ups during boarding by simply touching the reader on the bus.
If the reader can show the balance on the card, then it should have had ability to "collect" top ups.

Poor programming and management.

All that crap? My cheapo 100 quid phone has NFC, the Leap app takes a few seconds to download and about a minute to top up your card through it. Less if you let the app save your credit card details (I don't.)

This is one of the very few areas that the NTA have done something right with Leap.

XPS_Zero

The excuse I keep hearing for why we don't switch to an all services zonal fare system is "sure that means if you go from the edge of zone A to the edge of zone B, you're paying more for not traveling very far.

The same is true of that with the stage system, with means tests (one of the reasons I hate them), with the drink driving limit...the line has to be drawn somewhere the question is is the fare zones a better set up, looking at Luas, Bus Eireann, London TFL it's way better.

Dravokivich

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

of course it is. If you a providing a good or service you should know the ins and outs of it. CIE / NTA should be providing training to any outlet that provides Leap, and should be mystery shopping them as well.

When I worked in a news agents all I needed to know was how to use the till and how to count. You're a bit mad thinking they are a Service provider.

Carawaystick

I think the most pertinant point about leapcard information is that a private interested person, our very own lxflyer, has produced the most complete and up-to-date guide to leapcard use and functionality

bk

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The excuse I keep hearing for why we don't switch to an all services zonal fare system is "sure that means if you go from the edge of zone A to the edge of zone B, you're paying more for not traveling very far.

Easily solved with the system they have in Amsterdam.

You pay 80c on the first bus/tram/metro you board and then you pay 14c per km *. You can switch transport modes within 60 minutes and you continue to pay the per k charge (but not the initial charge).

In other words you just pay for the distance you travel.

No need for zones. Zones is an old fashioned idea that is no longer necessary now that we have smart cards and GPS.

* The per km charge differs slightly by a cent or two, depending on mode of transport and time of day. For instance there is a lower off peak charge to encourage off peak travel.

Be well and win

A couple of key points here

Firstly, the OP spoke about using cash on buses in the UK, including notes. More and more UK bus companies are doing away with cash and you cannot use cash at all on a London Bus

Secondly, regarding the online top ups. Your Leapcard is like your debit card. It really is just a dumb piece of plastic. When you get paid your wages, the money doesn't magically go to your debit card, instead it goes to your bank account and you have to interact with an ATM or POS device to make a transaction. The transfer of your wages from your company to your bank account might have taken a couple of days

I'm not defending Leapcard here and it could be an awful lot better but in fairness, it works pretty well most of the time.

Ashbx

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

you're continuing to be obtuse. To use the toilet roll analogy, the customer picks the one the want off the shelf and can consider all the differences before buying. The Leap is a service that the staff must use to generate what the customer wants. Even if the customer knows what they want (as in the OP) staff still have to do it.

I worked in a newsagent for 6 years during my school and college days.

We had a deli....we weren't trained in nutrition value or anything about cooking.
We had an ATM machine....we weren't trained in how this works or why sometimes money may not come out, and if that means the customer were still charged.
We sold lotto....we weren't trained in on how the lotto works, or what the price is, or should you get the plus or not. We werent trained on what you should do if you won a significant amount. We were trained how to press buttons on a machine.
We had a post office in the shop.....we weren't trained in anything to do with the Irish postal system or any services that come with the post office.
We sold cigarettes....when's someones brand wasn't in stock, we weren't trained on how to advise what cigs would be similar to their own brand. Or same goes for ANY product we sold in that store.
We sold wine.....we weren't trained on what wine goes with what food or whether you should advise white or red.
We had payzone....we weren't trained on how bills are paid through payzone, how the credit works on phones or how you can pay for parking.

Finally: we sold bus and luas tickets....and we were NOT trained in in any of this either.

To expect some 16 year old working a part time job to be able to explain all of the above is laughable!

Next time do your research and ask the person exactly what you are looking for. Alternatively, ring Luas or go onto their website and find out what you are looking for because the average joe in the shop is not going to be able to tell you.

Banjoxed

Ashbx wrote: »

I worked in a newsagent for 6 years during my school and college days.

We had a deli....we weren't trained in nutrition value or anything about cooking.
We had an ATM machine....we weren't trained in how this works or why sometimes money may not come out, and if that means the customer were still charged.
We sold lotto....we weren't trained in on how the lotto works, or what the price is, or should you get the plus or not. We werent trained on what you should do if you won a significant amount. We were trained how to press buttons on a machine.
We had a post office in the shop.....we weren't trained in anything to do with the Irish postal system or any services that come with the post office.
We sold cigarettes....when's someones brand wasn't in stock, we weren't trained on how to advise what cigs would be similar to their own brand. Or same goes for ANY product we sold in that store.
We sold wine.....we weren't trained on what wine goes with what food or whether you should advise white or red.
We had payzone....we weren't trained on how bills are paid through payzone, how the credit works on phones or how you can pay for parking.

Finally: we sold bus and luas tickets....and we were NOT trained in in any of this either.

To expect some 16 year old working a part time job to be able to explain all of the above is laughable!

Next time do your research and ask the person exactly what you are looking for. Alternatively, ring Luas or go onto their website and find out what you are looking for because the average joe in the shop is not going to be able to tell you.

So the moral of the story is, don't expect a till jockey to know anything about the PT product you may wish to buy. This side of ticketing should be scrapped altogther until shops are willing or able to implement minimum standards.

Dravokivich

Banjoxed wrote: »

So the moral of the story is, don't expect a till jockey to know anything about the PT product you may wish to buy. This side of ticketing should be scrapped altogther until shops are willing or able to implement minimum standards.

There should be clear information for a consumer to be confident in the product they are purchasing. The lack of it has been somewhat bewildering. That's not the shops fault. Nor the fault of the "Till Jockey." Some people's expectations are a bit far fetched.

XPS_Zero

Ashbx wrote: »

I worked in a newsagent for 6 years during my school and college days.

We had a deli....we weren't trained in nutrition value or anything about cooking.
We had an ATM machine....we weren't trained in how this works or why sometimes money may not come out, and if that means the customer were still charged.
We sold lotto....we weren't trained in on how the lotto works, or what the price is, or should you get the plus or not. We werent trained on what you should do if you won a significant amount. We were trained how to press buttons on a machine.
We had a post office in the shop.....we weren't trained in anything to do with the Irish postal system or any services that come with the post office.
We sold cigarettes....when's someones brand wasn't in stock, we weren't trained on how to advise what cigs would be similar to their own brand. Or same goes for ANY product we sold in that store.
We sold wine.....we weren't trained on what wine goes with what food or whether you should advise white or red.
We had payzone....we weren't trained on how bills are paid through payzone, how the credit works on phones or how you can pay for parking.

Finally: we sold bus and luas tickets....and we were NOT trained in in any of this either.

To expect some 16 year old working a part time job to be able to explain all of the above is laughable!

Next time do your research and ask the person exactly what you are looking for. Alternatively, ring Luas or go onto their website and find out what you are looking for because the average joe in the shop is not going to be able to tell you.

erm....are you f---king kidding? seriously?
That was an incredibly snotty and disingenuous answer and you know it.

DELI: Nobody expects you to be able to advise on nutrition because advising on nutrition is not an advertised service of your shop. All you need to know how to do is make sandwitches and cut ham and corned beef, and I bet you WERE trained on that.

ATM: Once again...NOT a service provided by your shop, just a service provided IN your shop another service provider is responsible for and the customer knows how to use all by themselves

LOTTO: Once AGAIN...advising on what numbers to get NOT a service provided by your shop. But you see how you admit you WERE advised on how to use the machine?? So if you are trained to use one machine why is it so unreasonable to be trained to use another much similer machine a few inches away?

CIGS: Once again..NOT something you are expected to provide as a service.

POST: Once again..like the ATM...a separate service with separate staff NOT a service provided by your shop

WINE: Being a wine connoisseur...NOT an advertised service of your shop.

Now we get to the last one.

We had payzone....we weren't trained on how bills are paid through payzone.....

You f---g should have been!! That's part of your god damn job!

how the credit works on phones or how you can pay for parking.

Can you guess what I'm going to say....NOT a service advertised by your shop.

So instead of disingeniously naming services everyone and their grandmother knows is not provided by your store, lets compare oranges and oranges instead of oranges and apples.


You're trained to use the lotto machine...you should be trained to use the LEAP machine
You're trained to use the till...you should be trained to use the LEAP machine
You're trained to use the machines on the Deli...you should be trained to use the LEAP machine
You're trained to use the PAYZONE machine...you should be trained to use the LEAP machine

What do those four things have in common that the post office and parking services and nutritional advice and the ATM do not? They are all advertised services of your shop, that you are saying you provide, that are behind the counter and the customer cannot self-service with.

Of course the person should research online more first. But comparing knowing the basic and easily understandable way a LEAP card works with providing nutritional advice is absolutely absurd.
Being qualified to provide nutritional advice would take a few years and formal qualifications, understanding how the various transport cards work would take an hour reading through a booklet.

If you sell a product you should understand the basic way it works, you don't need to be able to explain what bus routes are available etc but you should be able to explain the basic mechanism by which the product you are selling works. If I work in a chemist and I sell painkillers, I ought to have enough basic knowledge to understand if the persons pain is more appropriately delt with by say paracetamol on it's own or something stronger...I don't need to be a pharmacist to understand the very basics of the products I sell.

Ashbx

XPS_Zero wrote: »

erm....are you f---king kidding? seriously?
That was an incredibly snotty and disingenuous answer and you know it.

DELI: Nobody expects you to be able to advise on nutrition because advising on nutrition is not an advertised service of your shop. All you need to know how to do is make sandwitches and cut ham and corned beef, and I bet you WERE trained on that.

ATM: Once again...NOT a service provided by your shop, just a service provided IN your shop another service provider is responsible for and the customer knows how to use all by themselves

LOTTO: Once AGAIN...advising on what numbers to get NOT a service provided by your shop. But you see how you admit you WERE advised on how to use the machine?? So if you are trained to use one machine why is it so unreasonable to be trained to use another much similer machine a few inches away?

CIGS: Once again..NOT something you are expected to provide as a service.

POST: Once again..like the ATM...a separate service with separate staff NOT a service provided by your shop

WINE: Being a wine connoisseur...NOT an advertised service of your shop.

Now we get to the last one.



You f---g should have been!! That's part of your god damn job!



Can you guess what I'm going to say....NOT a service advertised by your shop.

So instead of disingeniously naming services everyone and their grandmother knows is not provided by your store, lets compare oranges and oranges instead of oranges and apples.


You're trained to use the lotto machine...you should be trained to use the LEAP machine
You're trained to use the till...you should be trained to use the LEAP machine
You're trained to use the machines on the Deli...you should be trained to use the LEAP machine
You're trained to use the PAYZONE machine...you should be trained to use the LEAP machine

What do those four things have in common that the post office and parking services and nutritional advice and the ATM do not? They are all advertised services of your shop, that you are saying you provide, that are behind the counter and the customer cannot self-service with.

Of course the person should research online more first. But comparing knowing the basic and easily understandable way a LEAP card works with providing nutritional advice is absolutely absurd.
Being qualified to provide nutritional advice would take a few years and formal qualifications, understanding how the various transport cards work would take an hour reading through a booklet.

If you sell a product you should understand the basic way it works, you don't need to be able to explain what bus routes are available etc but you should be able to explain the basic mechanism by which the product you are selling works. If I work in a chemist and I sell painkillers, I ought to have enough basic knowledge to understand if the persons pain is more appropriately delt with by say paracetamol on it's own or something stronger...I don't need to be a pharmacist to understand the very basics of the products I sell.

Selling luas or bus tickets is considered a product of the shop...but knowledge on public transport is not a service of the shop either!!

So customers are to come in and say "I want a one day rambler ticket".....not I want a ticket for 10 people and expect the staff member to know what ticket would be suitable. That is the point I am trying to make.

To use an example, the lotto. Yes I was trained how to press buttons on this machine. But if someone came into me and said I have €10 I want to spend on the lotto....as a then 16 year old who had NEVER done the lotto before.....I didn't know how it worked. I just knew that 3 lines with the plus cost x amount.

So yes, I was trained to use the machine but again I was not trained to ADVISE on it. Much like luas and bus....I can sell you tickets yes but I cant ADVISE on them!

I am just speaking about my own experience being on the other side of the OP so you can get angry all you like but I assume most shops would be in the same position as I was in. It should be up to Dublin Bus or Luas to make these clear to customers....not people in the local spar doing a part time job while they are still in school!!

blanch152

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

of course it is. If you a providing a good or service you should know the ins and outs of it. CIE / NTA should be providing training to any outlet that provides Leap, and should be mystery shopping them as well.

Doesn't happen elsewhere. I have had problems in both London and Paris when dealing with someone other than the main train stations.

blanch152

murphaph wrote: »

I think we are losing lots of travel data because you do not tag off on the bus. A great benefit of an RFID card like Leap is that we can use the data for demand modelling, but the end destinations of millions of journeys (we are mostly bus reliant in Ireland) are not known as you do not tag off alighting the bus.

Agreed, but the machines should be at the bus stop.

Travel times in Dublin are already long enough without having to wait for all those getting off the bus to tag off.

murphaph

Ashbx wrote: »

I worked in a newsagent for 6 years during my school and college days.

We had a deli....we weren't trained in nutrition value or anything about cooking.
We had an ATM machine....we weren't trained in how this works or why sometimes money may not come out, and if that means the customer were still charged.
We sold lotto....we weren't trained in on how the lotto works, or what the price is, or should you get the plus or not. We werent trained on what you should do if you won a significant amount. We were trained how to press buttons on a machine.
We had a post office in the shop.....we weren't trained in anything to do with the Irish postal system or any services that come with the post office.
We sold cigarettes....when's someones brand wasn't in stock, we weren't trained on how to advise what cigs would be similar to their own brand. Or same goes for ANY product we sold in that store.
We sold wine.....we weren't trained on what wine goes with what food or whether you should advise white or red.
We had payzone....we weren't trained on how bills are paid through payzone, how the credit works on phones or how you can pay for parking.

Finally: we sold bus and luas tickets....and we were NOT trained in in any of this either.

To expect some 16 year old working a part time job to be able to explain all of the above is laughable!

Next time do your research and ask the person exactly what you are looking for. Alternatively, ring Luas or go onto their website and find out what you are looking for because the average joe in the shop is not going to be able to tell you.

What did you do when someone asked you something you didn't know?

murphaph

blanch152 wrote: »

Agreed, but the machines should be at the bus stop.

Travel times in Dublin are already long enough without having to wait for all those getting off the bus to tag off.

We'll yeah...the poor layout of buses in Dublin deserves its own thread. Berlin double deckers have 3 sets of doors and 2 stairs, one at the front immediately behind driver and one all the way at the back. You board at the front and head upstairs. When alighting you use the rear stairs and door. It's like a conveyor belt.

Giuseppe90

I was in London last week for 3 days, hadn't been for a few years - was able to use my Android Pay app for all journeys. Just tapped my phone on the readers that I had used Oyster cards with on previous visits on entry and exit. The clever part is that all journeys were recorded and charged for after midnight so any caps could be applied - Apple Pay and straight contactless cards can be used exactly the same way.

Well impressed is an understatement!

Dravokivich

murphaph wrote: »

What did you do when someone asked you something you didn't know?

That's far too open ended. How is he meant to anticipate what he doesn't know? It really isn't for a newsagent to be considered the Service provider. They are not subject matter experts, why do you expect them to be?

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Why don't they have nice large posters explaining all the leap products and their functions; costs etc for tourists to use?

markpb

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote:

Why don't they have nice large posters explaining all the leap products and their functions; costs etc for tourists to use?

The posters would need to be small building sized to explain all the different tickets available on leap across all the operators plus all the features like capping and automatic product selection that leap does.

The problem here is not leap or how it's sold. The problem is that the underlying fare structure is crazy and was not simplified when leap was being introduced.

murphaph

Dravokivich wrote: »

That's far too open ended. How is he meant to anticipate what he doesn't know? It really isn't for a newsagent to be considered the Service provider. They are not subject matter experts, why do you expect them to be?

I don't but I do expect them to tell me they don't know something if they do don't know it or find it out but what I cannot accept is being told and sold something incorrectly.

All the person had to say was "I don't know".

howiya

Isn't the margin on payzone services ridiculously small? I think its actually loss making if you pay with a debit card. Expecting retailers to invest time and effort in such a service is a bit OTT

Banjoxed

howiya wrote: »

Isn't the margin on payzone services ridiculously small? I think its actually loss making if you pay with a debit card. Expecting retailers to invest time and effort in such a service is a bit OTT

Then it shouldn't be offered as a product by shops at all. Why waste everyone's time, effort or money?

howiya

Banjoxed wrote: »

Then it shouldn't be offered as a product by shops at all. Why waste everyone's time, effort or money?

It's not a waste of everyone's time effort or money though. The retailer may sell you goods with a higher margin while you're in the shop. You save money by going to the shop and topping up instead of paying the more expensive cash fares.

That being said there's no value for the retailer in spending their time training their staff on every nuanced possibility involving a leap card for the small amount that payzone pay them.

Some retailers are already charging a surcharge if you use a debit card and your sole purchase is a leap card top up to cover their costs

MOH

bk wrote: »

Easily solved with the system they have in Amsterdam.

You pay 80c on the first bus/tram/metro you board and then you pay 14c per km *. You can switch transport modes within 60 minutes and you continue to pay the per k charge (but not the initial charge).

In other words you just pay for the distance you travel.

No need for zones. Zones is an old fashioned idea that is no longer necessary now that we have smart cards and GPS.

* The per km charge differs slightly by a cent or two, depending on mode of transport and time of day. For instance there is a lower off peak charge to encourage off peak travel.

And that's somewhere that had a fairly straightforward existing zonal and ticketing system, and still found a way of making it better.

The resistance to any kind of worthwhile change here is ridiculous

NikoTopps

howiya wrote: »

Isn't the margin on payzone services ridiculously small? I think its actually loss making if you pay with a debit card. Expecting retailers to invest time and effort in such a service is a bit OTT

The one i know of charge 0,50 € to do top up for phone,leap,electricity etc and 1,00 € when using debit\credit to pay for it