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Child Item

My experience of ticketing on Irish PT as a visitor

murphaph

Ok, not a rant (already ranted to myself earlier lol) but a short account of my experience today taking a day trip into town with my missus, our son and my mother.

So, I decide this morning that I'm not gonna be a chump and invest in a Leap card as I'm home often enough that I can accept the deposit charge.

I go to the local shop and explain that 3 adults and 1 child want to go into town and back. I am sold a Leap card + 1 day family rambler (no travel credit).

To those in the know (which should include the agents selling the sodding things) this is actually a double mistake as a family rambler only entitles 2 adults to travel and no credit on the card would mean the 3rd adult would have to pay full cash fare (negating the point of using Leap)

So, we (armed with our insufficient card) board the bus. I tell the driver I"m not sure what exactly is on the card but we are 3 adults and 1 child. She tells me "There's NOTHING on the card" and we have to pay full cash fares in coins only for the 3 adults. She even prints off a card status report, looks at it and says "yeah, nothing on that card, it must not have credited yet".

So, I duly insert the coins and get issued full fare cash tickets for the journey. Upon sitting down I scan over the status report she just printed and I see "1 day Family Rambler" listed 2nd from top. I am going to town so we wait until we get to the Terminus and I show her the printout she gave me and asked her what that is.

She confirms it is indeed a valid 1 day family rambler but apparently it's my fault for not explicitly declaring that I wanted to use the rambler, though it was quite obvious I am a first time user of the Leap I would have thought. To be fair, her machine does NOT show her the Rambler ticket is present on the card, you must print off and read the status report apparently.

I decide we'll head up to BAC on O'Connell St. to see what can be done as I feel a little ripped off at this stage. They take several attempts at explanation before the understand the problem, initially suggesting that the Rambler had not been credited to the card at the time it was presented on the bus. When I showed them the status printout, dated 1 minute before the ticket, they conceded and refunded 2 adult fares as they should have been deducted from Leap. Ok, happy enough at this stage as not out of pocket, just time, but we're on holiday so no big deal.

So, now I get too clever (having gone online to see what the actual story is with all these tickets) and think well, I feel the agent messed up selling us a Rambler in the first place as 2 adults and 1 child return is not even the €14.40 a rambler costs, so I say to myself "I'll keep that Rambler for our next visit and put cash credit on the card and at the same time buy a child's Leap and put €5 on that and we can travel home on them". So we board the bus home at 7.30pm and present the card to the validator this time and the friggin Rambler is taken automatically (apparently if I had boarded after 8pm and done this it would have done the exact opposite and deducted from travel credit).

So, I learned a valuable few lessons:
-Find out EXACTLY how tickets work in Dublin in future as the knowledge on the ground seems lacking
-Never trust a sales agent as they do not appear to know what they are selling
-Understand that placing the Leap card on the driver's ticket machine does not have the same effect as placing it up against the validator when a Rambler ticket is loaded depending on time of day (this is just odd to me as a visitor)

Just to compare with my current hometown of Berlin..

Get on bus, pay fare (notes accepted, change given, but I understand certain elements in Irish society make that part difficult), get issued with 3 adult singles and 1 child single as the driver would know that a simple return journey would never make it worthwhile buying a day pass (but she can issue a day pass if it would make more sense). Shove tickets in wallet and hold for inspection if required later.

In short, we have a long way to go to make ticketing as integrated and easy as in other countries. I wasn't even using multiple operators (my Berlin single ticket above would entitle me to change modes between bus, tram, underground, commuter and regional rail and indeed ferry any number of times in a 2hr10min window which should allow any journey right across the city to be completed with ease) and it fell down badly in my eyes. I'm not even a total idiot when it comes to PT, always preferring it when we visit a city and almost always having no trouble negotiating it whatsoever. In fact I can't remember the last time something like the above happened to me and I speak the local language here!

It's needlessly complicated. Also funny to see "stages" still being shown on the Leap fares page but good luck finding them on a map of the route you want to take (zonal fare system?)

Ok, now you can all feel free to tell me how stupid I am and how simple it all is really...:D

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eurasian

To me the biggest problem with the leap card is that you still have to "validate" top ups made online by going to the station/validatiton point.
It makes the whole online topping up pontless to me.

XPS_Zero

The lack of knowledge on the ground is awful, and the lack of planning as well.

Until very recently, when they were introduced the Leap Visitor card (allowing you unlimited Dublin travel all services - 24 hours for €10, 3 days for €19.99 [best option] or €40 for a week) was only available at the airport.

Not available at the ports
Not available at the Tourist Offices in the City Centre
Not available at either of the two main intercity stations one of which technically provides international rail services with frequent day trips from Belfast this exact ticket would be suited for.

When I was seriously ill, waiting for months before I got my application for disability accepted and got a free travel card, I had to quit work and the serious amount of transport I had to do on an income slashed by 2/3 meant I had to save some money. WHen you're on social welfare and your smaller income compared to your previous wage is annihilated by the basics of bills, rent and loan repayments now taking up a much much bigger % of your money, then you have to add script charges and medical fees (for some services not provided by the public system) you are forced to learn to be clever with getting a lot out of small amount of money. I figured out that the visitor cards 3 day option would save me a fortune as the daily LEAP cap is €10 for all services (and between pharmacies, clinics, hospital appointments etc I'd use all three modes of transport), so I'd often spend close to €40 a week. I decided to get the leap visitor 3 day option and cluster all my appointments for each week within the 72 hour period.

The card originally only had the 72 hour €19.99 option on it. Once I discovered (by accident, the function was enabled a few weeks before it was marketed) in my local shop that the other two time periods were on the menu now, I decided they might work for me as well, or at least the 24 hour one would, better than a normal LEAP cap, because the normal leap card all services cap for a day is €10, the 24 hour visitor leap is €10 too...but the leap visitor one is time based whereas the standard leap is calendar based. In other words if I put the 10er on the standard leap card today 28th April, it will stop applying the cap at 00:00 tonight no matter when I tag first during the day. But if I load the 24 hour option onto a leap visitor card and tag it at say 16:00 on the 28th April, it will be valid until 16:00 on the 29th April. For weeks where I had more limited appointments I thus saved a 10er pushing appointments to within the same 24 hour period. That was four GMS scripts, 1/3 the cost of a monthly drug not on GMS etc

Two incidents happened (painfully mild compared to the abuse I'd get from CIE staff having an FT card later, ironically).

One time a Dublin Bus inspector checked my card and declared that since I'm not a tourist I should not have one of these cards. I specifically checked this out beforehand and was told (and shown) that the LUAS inspectors guide didn't specify a tourist had to hold it just that it was tagged on. They also told me they decided that the only people who would get economic value out of it would be visitors for the most part so there wasn't any need to place restrictions on it that would be a pain in the arse to enforce anyway. It took a long time to convince them it was perfectly valid. I had to point out the other two options on the card are identical in every way to the all services LEAP caps anyway
I went to the Spar closest to Connoly station one time I asked for the 24 hour option to be loaded onto the card. She didn't appear to know how to use the machine to do anything other than a normal leap card as she'd never seen a visitor card before (ok they're new but shouldn't you be trained on the new cards?). I talked her through the menu on how to load it. She got to the option menu for the three possible loading's "oh...I don't think...were not allowed do that, that's not allowed", "of course it's allowed it's part of the cards set up it's on the menu, push the 24 hour option it will print out a receipt for you with a bar code to scan", "oh no I don't think you're allowed do this- ". She seemed to think I was somehow scamming the card. But what she said next made even less sense: "-i think the other shop on the next street does that".....er...what? So it's bad and you're not meant to / allowed do it...but the other shop will do it? WHAT?

I've also noticed there are no visitor cards in the vending machines at the bus stops at Dublin Airport when they are the most ideal ticket for a tourist to need, if they can be sold inside the terminal why not outside in the damn vending machines?

The problem we have making our ticketing system integrated is the 3 companies constantly bickering about wanting their own set ups, protecting their own "brands" etc and instead of the govt coming along and saying "right, you're all state owned, were the govt, were in charge not you, STFU and do exactly as you're told or you're fired", they indulge them in case their union throws their toys out of the pram.

XPS_Zero

eurasian wrote: »

To me the biggest problem with the leap card is that you still have to "validate" top ups made online by going to the station/validation point.
It makes the whole online topping up pontless to me.

Agreed. I had a huge row over that on the Luas one time. I had to run fast somewhere didn't have time to stop at a shop to top up and hadn't got any of my bank cards with me, so I topped up online knowing my numbers off heart. I didn't think it would take 3 days because, as you say, that defeats the ENTIRE PURPOSE of topping up online, you could go to a shop within 3 days why bother?

I got to the Luas stop and tried to "collect" my top up and tag on. No dice. PURCHASE NEEDED
ERRRR
PURCHASE NEEDED
ERRRRR
PURCHASE NEEDED
ERRR
PURCHASE NEEDED

The next most frustrating words after "INSUFFICIENT FUNDS", especially when you've just made a purchase. This was Dundrum station. A tram arrived I let it go. Back to the machine to try tag another 40 times. Nothing. People at the stop must have saw this college student (equipped with my UCD sports bag, flying the flag for the college by looking like a mental case attacking a smart card reader) tagging fruitlessly smacking the side of the machine in frustration and mumbling and thought I was off my head on something, as all college students are all the time of course, or so the tabloids tell me when not telling me about 16 year olds having coke fueled, gel bracelet assisted orgies on their junior cert night....but I digress

Another tram pulled in, as they do in Dundrum, the one that stops and then reverses back the CC way. I decided, frustrated, "f--k this, I paid for a ticket, and they won't let me use the service, I'm getting on this tram". I got on, then decided no murphys law, I've paid and made no attempt to avoid the fare...so I'm definitely getting caught and fined if I stay on this tram, got off, back to the machine to keep trying. The tram was leaving in 3minutes I decided I'd run down the clock and decide what to do then, give it more trys use up the 3 minutes. Inspectors saw me getting off the tram and thought I was already on the tram coming from CC. Didn't believe me, fined me

I appealed they tried the 3 day gambit if you don't pay were taking you to court, I said ok my blunder I wasn't aware of that stupid condition, but I'm not paying the fine, theres no intent to commit a crime (and recklessness doesn't apply), and without either of those, there is no crime in law, take me to court. I wasn't bluffing I was so annoyed over the whole thing. They eventually dropped it once they realized, I think, that I actually was crazy enough to go and chance it, and after I asked them to check the cameras. If I went to court, I said, I'd be easily able to produce three things:

Video footage of me trying to tag on (ie pay) dozens of times
Video footage showing I didn't get off that other tram from an existing journey
An email showing me buying a top up mere minutes before the station so no intent to commit fare evasion is present

and I'd get to point out that even though you could argue I should have paid attention to the stupid 3 day rule, I didn't undertake a journey without paying a fare...so there is no damn case. I never used online top up again after that.

murphaph

Oh I also learned that I can use an adult leap e-purse to pay for companions on DB (but not other modes) BUT I cannot pay a child fare in this manner with an adult Leap card, even though it"s just a sum of cash credit on the e-purse. I'd love to know the exact reason I can't pay for a child fare with funds from the e-purse on my adult Leap card.

XPS_Zero

murphaph wrote: »

Oh I also learned that I can use an adult leap e-purse to pay for companions on DB (but not other modes) BUT I cannot pay a child fare in this manner with an adult Leap card, even though it"s just a sum of cash credit on the e-purse. I'd love to know the exact reason I can't pay for a child fare with funds from the e-purse on my adult Leap card.

I often wondered how that would work.

I had a guy who was quite desperate one time, at the bus stop, thought he was one of these fakers who pretend they need cash for the bus or train you give it to them and then they go on to the next person and ask the same thing. But he was preppy and clean cut which made me doubt, I got onto the bus with him he pleaded with the driver that he was stranded and had no way of getting home. I slapped my LEAP card onto the reader and asked him to take his fare off me.

I wondered how that would work if you were close to your cap or already passed it? would they still do it?

Tickityboo

murphaph wrote: »

Oh I also learned that I can use an adult leap e-purse to pay for companions on DB (but not other modes) BUT I cannot pay a child fare in this manner with an adult Leap card, even though it"s just a sum of cash credit on the e-purse. I'd love to know the exact reason I can't pay for a child fare with funds from the e-purse on my adult Leap card.

You can pay for a child with an adult leap card!!
The driver just has to press the child button on the ticket machine when the leap card is placed on it.
This will bring up the child fare options on the machine.

jahalpin

eurasian wrote: »

To me the biggest problem with the leap card is that you still have to "validate" top ups made online by going to the station/validatiton point.
It makes the whole online topping up pontless to me.

If you have an Android phone you can load top-ups to your card using the Leap Card app and NFC (this doesn't work on iPhones as Apple have locked the NFC chip so it only works for Apple Pay)

jahalpin

A little bit of research online before travelling would have been a good idea as the Leap Card website explains all the different options available and how to buy these (when I travel I would normally look these kinds of things up before I get there or while waiting in the airport on the way there)

It's not really fair to expect someone in a local newsagents to know all the options available on all products that their terminal sells as they would be hundreds of products available on the terminal

Cookie_Monster

jahalpin wrote: »

It's not really fair to expect someone in a local newsagents to know all the options available on all products that their terminal sells as they would be hundreds of products available on the terminal

of course it is. If you a providing a good or service you should know the ins and outs of it. CIE / NTA should be providing training to any outlet that provides Leap, and should be mystery shopping them as well.

markpb

XPS_Zero wrote:

I wondered how that would work if you were close to your cap or already passed it? would they still do it?

Companion ticket fares aren't counted towards the cap.

murphaph

Tickityboo wrote: »

You can pay for a child with an adult leap card!!
The driver just has to press the child button on the ticket machine when the leap card is placed on it.
This will bring up the child fare options on the machine.

Oh. Then the Leap T&Cs are clear as mud.

"(a) "Adult Leap Card" means those Leap Cards that can be used by a person of any age. Student and Child Tickets cannot be used on this card. Certain adult Tickets such as monthly and annual Taxsaver Tickets cannot be used on this card and must be used on a Personalised Leap Card. It is to be noted that Adult Leap Cards are subject to full adult fares irrespective of the age of the customer using the Leap Card. "

https://www.leapcard.ie/en/(X(1)S(sbxmikvcmyqg0opgwhimp0jf))/pagesetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=CG%2FCj953WkPB%2B7fwjkLFshsyP7wecX6fiV0VBn3Q632F20yhboVXGTVmv%2B2bImvcFvyDWv8wk%2Bd4E5kAGPCvjpJvBUgOhvVEg%2FB6ZgVyLiI6nLqx13jMpsQIKgDUASmGM793kdSI9FJOtf2oYKBBrP3uRbgVAG0ZGo31awr2Vmg%3D

murphaph

jahalpin wrote: »

A little bit of research online before travelling would have been a good idea as the Leap Card website explains all the different options available and how to buy these (when I travel I would normally look these kinds of things up before I get there or while waiting in the airport on the way there)

It's not really fair to expect someone in a local newsagents to know all the options available on all products that their terminal sells as they would be hundreds of products available on the terminal

To be fair a group or family day ticket would not be an obscure or exotic product in any public transport system I'm aware of. If they aren't sure (they were asked specifically) then they should consult a reliable source.

markpb

murphaph wrote:

"(a) "Adult Leap Card" means those Leap Cards that can be used by a person of any age. Student and Child Tickets cannot be used on this card.

I be wrong but I think that means you cannot but a child ticket and load it into the card. Funds on the wallet can be used to pay for a child fare though.

murphaph

markpb wrote: »

I be wrong but I think that means you cannot but a child ticket and load it into the card. Funds on the wallet can be used to pay for a child fare though.

Yeah I accept that it actually works for the wallet as Tickityboo says it works in practice. I was more focused on the last line of the quoted T&C...

"It is to be noted that Adult Leap Cards are subject to full adult fares irrespective of the age of the customer using the Leap Card"

It's at best exceptionally misleading as it seems it does not apply in practice to the e-purse/travel credit aspect to the card.

beauf

Definitely the worse part is the lack of online integration for the buses. Its just a major flaw in the system.

They should put an ATM system in place instead of using shops. Shops are useless if the system isn't all connected. Bank ATMs are everywhere.

Pelvis

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

of course it is. If you a providing a good or service you should know the ins and outs of it. CIE / NTA should be providing training to any outlet that provides Leap, and should be mystery shopping them as well.

If you work in a newsagent you could be selling thousands of different products, if you expect the guy working part time earning minimum wage behind the counter to know the ins and outs of every transport ticket they sell then logically the same should apply to every toilet roll, tube of toothpaste and chocolate bar they sell. It's just not going to happen, there's an expectancy that the people purchasing the product know what they want.

If I'm on holiday and have my family with me, I'm sure as **** not rockin' up to a newsagents to buy a travel pass without knowing exactly what I'm asking for in advance.

markpb

beauf wrote:

They should put an ATM system in place instead of using shops. Shops are useless if the system isn't all connected. Bank ATMs are everywhere.

The shops are connected/online but it's irrelevant because the hardware in the shops write directly to the Leap card when the ticket is bought. The comments made by DB staff in the OP about the ticket not being applied immediately are total gibberish.

Besides which, bank ATMs don't have contactless hardware. The cost of it to the ATMs, updating the software and paying the banks for the transaction would prohibitive. And even then, you'd still need the network of shops to support people who want to pay by cash and for people who want to buy the physical card.

murphaph

Pelvis wrote: »

If you work in a newsagent you could be selling thousands of different products, if you expect the guy working part time earning minimum wage behind the counter to know the ins and outs of every transport ticket they sell then logically the same should apply to every toilet roll, tube of toothpaste and chocolate bar they sell. It's just not going to happen, there's an expectancy that the people purchasing the product know what they want.

If I'm on holiday and have my family with me, I'm sure as **** not rockin' up to a newsagents to buy a travel pass without knowing exactly what I'm asking for in advance.

To be honest even the lady in DB had to check how many adults can travel on a family rambler ticket. She pulled out a booklet. She should have known but the booklets exist and the ticket agent should have been able to consult the same booklet rather than selling the wrong ticket. I at no point asked for a rambler ticket. I told them how many adults and children would be traveling and was mis-sold a ticket. If you don't know, then say so.

beauf

markpb wrote: »

The shops are connected/online but it's irrelevant because the hardware in the shops write directly to the Leap card when the ticket is bought. The comments made by DB staff in the OP about the ticket not being applied immediately are total gibberish.

Besides which, bank ATMs don't have contactless hardware. The cost of it to the ATMs, updating the software and paying the banks for the transaction would prohibitive. And even then, you'd still need the network of shops to support people who want to pay by cash.

Let me correct what I meant. Its useless buying it in a shop, if its not connected to the bus that you walk out of the shop and get on to.

So they need fix the bus system. Not just that it gets the money from the shops, but that you tag on and off, same as the trains.

The leap card works well using Luas and trains.

Cookie_Monster

Pelvis wrote: »

If you work in a newsagent you could be selling thousands of different products, if you expect the guy working part time earning minimum wage behind the counter to know the ins and outs of every transport ticket they sell then logically the same should apply to every toilet roll, tube of toothpaste and chocolate bar they sell. It's just not going to happen, there's an expectancy that the people purchasing the product know what they want.

stop being ridiculous; toilet paper is toilet paper. Leap ticketing is a complex service provided (like Lotto say) and should be fully understood by any staff member.

beauf

It seems to very common to get very poor information from staff or shops about the tickets. Therefore it makes sense to move it all to ATMs like the Luas terminals and trains stations. Do it all there.

Pelvis

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

stop being ridiculous; toilet paper is toilet paper. Leap ticketing is a complex service provided (like Lotto say) and should be fully understood by any staff member.

Hardly ridiculous, that checkout girl in Tesco should know the difference between Kittensoft and Andrex toilet roll, and why a 9 pack of one costs 10 cent more than the 9 pack of the other. At least very least, shouldn't they be able to tell me, if I were to ask, which performs better out of Domestos bleach and Tesco own brand bleach? Surely they know about their own products at least?

They are selling the product, they should know the ins and outs of it, according to you.

devnull

Pelvis wrote: »

Hardly ridiculous, that checkout girl in Tesco should know the difference between Kittensoft and Andrex toilet roll, and why a 9 pack of one costs 10 cent more than the 9 pack of the other.

At least very least, shouldn't they be able to tell me, if I were to ask, which performs better out of Domestos bleach and Tesco own brand bleach? Surely they know about their own products at least?

A shop like a Supermarket may sell getting on for 10,000 products, are they supposed to know every one of them inside out?

Will you be happy to pay the extra cost of taking extra staff on to take staff off the floor to train them when new products come in?

Your theory is great, but in practice it's not very workable.

Pelvis

devnull wrote: »

A shop like a Supermarket may sell getting on for 10,000 products, are they supposed to know every one of them inside out?

Will you be happy to pay the extra cost of taking extra staff on to take staff off the floor to train them when new products come in?

Your theory is great, but in practice it's not very workable.

That's the point I'm making.

spurious

The automated top-up is the best way to use the Leap. I gave up on the stupid 'online topup and validate' system ages ago.

beauf

If I need a leap for a bus, I go to the local train/luas station, get a card/credit there, the night before I need the bus. I see no reason to go to a shop.

boobycharlton

The Leap app on Android is the easiest way. Can top up whenever you want instantaneously. None of the hassle of collecting the top up like you have to do for online, and no queuing to top up in a shop or at a ticket vending machine in a train station or luas stop.

beauf

True, if your phone supports compatible NFC. I don't think any in our house do.

murphaph

beauf wrote: »

If I need a leap for a bus, I go to the local train/luas station, get a card/credit there, the night before I need the bus. I see no reason to go to a shop.

In my case there's no train station. Only the local shop. This is the case for most of the country.

murphaph

I think we are losing lots of travel data because you do not tag off on the bus. A great benefit of an RFID card like Leap is that we can use the data for demand modelling, but the end destinations of millions of journeys (we are mostly bus reliant in Ireland) are not known as you do not tag off alighting the bus.