The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

Crisis pregnancy? Inconvenient more like, and maybe they need to think re sterilisation

Come in to the real world for just a few minutes. What a deplorable comment.

January

Quote: Graces7
Crisis pregnancy? Inconvenient more like, and maybe they need to think re sterilisation

Anyone who lives in the real world in Ireland knows how exceptionally hard it is for women to be sterilised. Begging in some cases and still turned away because sure we don't know our own minds we might change them and then regret it or look for it to be reversed so we can have more children. Silly little women.

robarmstrong

For anyone staunch uninformed pro-lifers, read the below excerpts taken from a website with genuine reports to back up their claims. - https://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/

"Myth #4 Making Abortion more widely available will result in its use as a method of Contraception/Birth Control.
But the truth is much simpler:
Truth #4: There is no credible evidence that if abortion was more accessible that sexually active people would use abortion as a method of birth control.
Whiff of holier-than-thou misogyny from this one? We think so too.

First of all, abortion, by definition, can’t be used as a method of contraception: abortion occurs after conception.

Semantics aside, in the absence of any credible supporting evidence, there’s nothing to suggest that if abortion access is improved, sexually active people will suddenly ditch hormonal and/or barrier contraceptives in favour of abortion as a primary method of birth control (such as abortion can even be considered a method of birth control)."

Also again if that ismiseuninformedandmakingridiculousclaimsJack could let me know how this would turn into "abortion on demand" considering it's been stated that the process will be heavily monitored and ensured the right is not abused (it'll be done on a case by case basis) I'd also appreciate that. Time to back up your ridiculous claims with fact, rather than opinion.

Graces7

robarmstrong wrote: »

Also Graces7, if you could answer the below questions I'd greatly appreciate it.

Do you fully believe that a woman should be forced to continue a pregnancy to full term against her wishes (she may be in no position to have a baby) just to satisfy your own personal beliefs and morals?

If YOU were in that same position (being unable and unwilling to carry an unwanted pregnancy to full term just to satisfy other people's demands), do you think YOU should be forced to continue a pregnancy you can't go through with for a multitude of reasons?

Yes I would( or would have) carry on a pregnancy such as you speak of. Not for the demands and ideas of others but as that life I am carrying is not mine to damage or to destroy.

It is a life of its own
with its own rights to exist and be born and be cherished.

To speak of this as being "forced by society" is not something that would enter into it. Or to speak of it being for the demands pf others.I would have found a way through. To give that life the life it entitled to even if it were the result of rape.
Life is sacred, and to destroy life is outside my power or wish. I do not have the right to kill at whatever level .of development. To abort a baby would destroy the centre of my being.

Was reading this just now

I know it is long and wordy but it says it all for me and for many of us here.

http://corkandross.org/diocesan/two-lives-one-love-pastoral-message-for-2018-on-the-right-to-life/

Thank you all here by the way for enabling me to see the depths and layers of this.

Graces7

January wrote: »

Quote: Graces7
Crisis pregnancy? Inconvenient more like, and maybe they need to think re sterilisation

Anyone who lives in the real world in Ireland knows how exceptionally hard it is for women to be sterilised. Begging in some cases and still turned away because sure we don't know our own minds we might change them and then regret it or look for it to be reversed so we can have more children. Silly little women.

No not silly. Someone I know was made barren by an abortion is all. And bitterly regrets what she did.

robarmstrong

These women are being forced by society (your part of society) to continue with pregnancies.

Oh there's another lovely bite - you believe women should give birth to babies conceived out of rape?

Right so let me get this straight - woman A is forced to have intercourse against her will, and is then forced to keep that pregnancy? Sweet Mother of God you have probably one of the worst mindsets I've ever come across. It's disgusting. Why you're even allowed to post things like that here is beyond me but how and ever.

Oh by the way since you're all about life is sacred and whatnot, could you actually give us your opinion on Tuam or are you going to avoid it again?

I will in my sheriff's star read some drivel that the Catholic Church has put up in favor of pro-life, they lost any credibility to participate in this argument a long long time ago and you know full well why.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

kylith wrote: »

Irish women have to have babies they can’t care for, and be denied a say in their maternity care because people in Asia don’t want girls? What?

It's just more smoke screening. Nothing to do with the topic in hand but the usual attempt to divert the discussion. Plus, it sounds holier than thou and puts you in you place.
Totally irrelevant and often trotted out in any discussion on church, child or morality in Ireland - and all based on hearsay second hand anecdotes.

Madscientist30

Graces7 wrote: »

December2012 wrote: »

Yes I agree that it is awful that there is a double standard for males and females, with women not having control over their own reproductive system and being forced into situations they don't want by men or society.

Thats why I am pro choice.

I was speaking re female babies being aborted or killed.They had no choice. Period. They did not choose death

But they would never have had a choice? This is the most basic assumption I see pro-lifers making. You are implying that if somehow unborn fetuses were sentient and conscious and able to make rational decisions that they would have chosen life no matter what, so therefore as they cannot make that choice you must make it for them and fight for that. But none of us can know the answer to that question....are you really sure that if somebody could somehow address the soul of an unborn fetus and say "if you choose to be born you will end up in tremendous pain on a scrapheap, or hungry for most of your childhood, or with a parent that doesnt want you and wishes you were not here, or with very little love in your life. Now would you like to be born or not" that the answer would be yes in all cases? So sure that you are willing to force pregnancy and suffering on others? So sure despite the fact that thousands of people across the world take their own lives every year due to their own intolerable suffering?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

No not silly. Someone I know was made barren by an abortion is all. And bitterly regrets what she did.

And my niece died having a baby that was never going to live beyond birth. What is your point?

January

Graces7 wrote: »

No not silly. Someone I know was made barren by an abortion is all. And bitterly regrets what she did.

Well the vast majority of women who have abortions don't regret them. There's no reason to oppose abortion because one woman you know regrets it.

I just have a feeling though that that's not the reason you oppose it.

Graces7

robarmstrong wrote: »

These women are being forced by society (your part of society) to continue with pregnancies.

Oh there's another lovely bite - you believe women should give birth to babies conceived out of rape?

Right so let me get this straight - woman A is forced to have intercourse against her will, and is then forced to keep that pregnancy? Sweet Mother of God you have probably one of the worst mindsets I've ever come across. It's disgusting. Why you're even allowed to post things like that here is beyond me but how and ever.

Oh by the way since you're all about life is sacred and whatnot, could you actually give us your opinion on Tuam or are you going to avoid it again?

I will in my sheriff's star read some drivel that the Catholic Church has put up in
favor of pro-life, they lost any credibility to participate in this argument a long long time ago and you know full well why.

I have never avoided Tuam and far from it. It is the most evil of all the evil abuses committed in Ireland. It has alienated me from the Church and from all the Church is involved in and yet I still know that the life of a child conceived through rape is as precious as any other child

I knew this long before I knew the Church

And yes, they have no real voice in this; just happens I believe every word of that article

December2012

Graces7 wrote: »

I was speaking re female babies being aborted or killed.They had no choice. Period. They did not choose death

I got yoir point. You missed mine.

robarmstrong

Graces7 wrote: »

I have never avoided Tuam and far from it. It is the most evil of all the evil abuses committed in Ireland. It has alienated me from the Church and from all the Church is involved in and yet I still know that the life of a child conceived through rape is as precious as any other child

I knew this long before I knew the Church

And yes, they have no real voice in this; just happens I believe every word of that article

You've darted out of here any time someone mentioned Tuam, so what happened there is the most evil of all the evil abuses? So it's worse than abortion? Grand thanks for that you've been contradicting yourself pretty fierce but yeah.

Are you indirectly advocating that a woman who was forced to have sex against her will should also be forced to carry the resulting pregnancy from that rape full term? Listen to yourself very carefully when you answer that. I'll even say it again so you understand.

You think that a woman who is raped (has sex against her will) and falls pregnant due to this rape should also be forced (double whammy here) to contend with a full term pregnancy stemming from that rape.

Would you like to just skip all the pleasantries and say you want her in chains and cuffs as well?

Madscientist30

Graces7 wrote: »

robarmstrong wrote: »

These women are being forced by society (your part of society) to continue with pregnancies.

Oh there's another lovely bite - you believe women should give birth to babies conceived out of rape?

Right so let me get this straight - woman A is forced to have intercourse against her will, and is then forced to keep that pregnancy? Sweet Mother of God you have probably one of the worst mindsets I've ever come across. It's disgusting. Why you're even allowed to post things like that here is beyond me but how and ever.

Oh by the way since you're all about life is sacred and whatnot, could you actually give us your opinion on Tuam or are you going to avoid it again?

I will in my sheriff's star read some drivel that the Catholic Church has put up in
favor of pro-life, they lost any credibility to participate in this argument a long long time ago and you know full well why.

I have never avoided Tuam and far from it. It is the most evil of all the evil abuses committed in Ireland. It has alienated me from the Church and from all the Church is involved in and yet I still know that the life of a child conceived through rape is as precious as any other child

I knew this long before I knew the Church

And yes, they have no real voice in this; just happens I believe every word of that article

You are saying that Tuam alienated you from the Church and all the Church is involved in. Well the Church is involved in forced pregnancy, and you just posted a link from that same Church to back up your beliefs. You dont seem very alienated 🀔

ForestFire

Why is tuam continuously brought up.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and they are completely seperate issues.

Also you can have the same beliefs as the church without likening them or being apart of it, I hope? Like murder for example.

These points are nothing to do with referendum and are only being used to try and discredit other posters views.

robarmstrong

ForestFire wrote: »

Why is tuam continuously brought up.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and they are completely seperate issues.

Also you can have the same beliefs as the church without likening them or being apart of it, I hope? Like murder for example.

These points are nothing to do with referendum and are only being used to try and discredit other posters views.

If the staunch pro-lifers can accuse everyone of murdering babies they better have a good cop on at what went on in their back garden before opening their mouths.

applehunter

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/repeal-campaigners-will-not-accept-a-no-vote-says-minister-1.3430112

Timberrrrrrrr

ForestFire wrote: »

Why is tuam continuously brought up.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and they are completely seperate issues.

Also you can have the same beliefs as the church without likening them or being apart of it, I hope? Like murder for example.

These points are nothing to do with referendum and are only being used to try and discredit other posters views.

Same can be said for abortions or baby abandonment in China/India yet the pro-life crowd keep throwing that in every few pages. At least Tuam is relevant to this country if not this subject.

robarmstrong

applehunter wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/repeal-campaigners-will-not-accept-a-no-vote-says-minister-1.3430112

We won't accept a no vote the same way pro-lifers won't accept a woman having the right to choose what goes on with her own body.

Next please.

Call me Al

ForestFire wrote: »

Why is tuam continuously brought up.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and they are completely seperate issues.

Also you can have the same beliefs as the church without likening them or being apart of it, I hope? Like murder for example.

These points are nothing to do with referendum and are only being used to try and discredit other posters views.

Nothing to do with the referendum.... a bit like pro-life commentary on cultural attitudes towards and treatment of girls in China and India then?
Where's your indignation on that front?

Timberrrrrrrr

applehunter wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/repeal-campaigners-will-not-accept-a-no-vote-says-minister-1.3430112

And?

If the 8th is not repealed then people will start the campaign all over again, it may take one year it may take 20 years but if the 8th isn't repealed then the fight for women's rights will go on.

_Dara_

ForestFire wrote: »

Why is tuam continuously brought up.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and they are completely seperate issues.

What are the "two wrongs" here? Tuam and...?

ForestFire

robarmstrong wrote: »

If the staunch pro-lifers can accuse everyone of murdering babies they better have a good cop on at what went on in their back garden before opening their mouths.

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous, it happened in everyone back garden, and is nothing to do with pro choice or pro life.

Everybody agrees it was wrong and evil and trying to blame it on one side is disgusting in my opinion.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

ForestFire wrote: »

Why is tuam continuously brought up.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and they are completely seperate issues.

Also you can have the same beliefs as the church without likening them or being apart of it, I hope? Like murder for example.

These points are nothing to do with referendum and are only being used to try and discredit other posters views.

Those same other posters, who by some twisted imagination, equate the referendum and abortion in Ireland with how Indians treat some of their children in order to distract and divert the discussion on what is happening here at home? Maybe if they left out the irrelevant and, I agree, completely separate issues then everybody else would and we could actually stick to the topic in hand.

ForestFire

_Dara_ wrote: »

What are the "two wrongs" here? Tuam and...?

For pro life people there is, but the point is that are not related, is that hard to understand?

ForestFire

Call me Al wrote: »

Nothing to do with the referendum.... a bit like pro-life commentary on cultural attitudes towards and treatment of girls in China and India then?
Where's your indignation on that front?

So your happy to do the same, because someone else does

ForestFire

Andrea Creamy Yard wrote: »

Those same other posters, who by some twisted imagination, equate the referendum and abortion in Ireland with how Indians treat some of their children in order to distract and divert the discussion on what is happening here at home? Maybe if they left out the irrelevant and, I agree, completely separate issues then everybody else would and we could actually stick to the topic in hand.

Agree

_Dara_

ForestFire wrote: »

For pro life people there is, but the point is that are not related, is that hard to understand?

OK, so for many people, there aren't two wrongs in the equation. Glad we've cleared that up.

Anything to say about the pointless stuff pro-lifers bring up here that has nothing to do with anything either? Why only hone in on pro-choicers?

pitifulgod

ForestFire wrote: »

Why is tuam continuously brought up.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and they are completely seperate issues.

Also you can have the same beliefs as the church without likening them or being apart of it, I hope? Like murder for example.

These points are nothing to do with referendum and are only being used to try and discredit other posters views.

Think it's very relevant, Tuam goes back to exact shameing that individuals in this thread and pro life groups tend to apply to women who have abortions. Religion is also a considerable influence for the highest profile pro life campaigners. Eg Noel Pattern guy who made up all the nonsense is a young earth creationist.

ForestFire

_Dara_ wrote: »

OK, so for many people, there aren't two wrongs in the equation. Glad we've cleared that up.

Anything to say about the pointless stuff pro-lifers bring up here that has nothing to do with anything either? Why only hone in on pro-choicers?

I don't ask you to comment on every post. Why did you not do so?

I'll comment on whatever posts I want thank you.

Maybe Tuam has a special meaning to me?

I should not be dictated how or where I express my opinion.